PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   Aerotoxic in the news (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/561689-aerotoxic-news.html)

Pacific Blue 22nd Feb 2015 04:30

Latest on Aerotoxic Syndrome
 
Lots of news reports this week showing a breakthrough is on the cards
with regards to the acknowledgment of Aerotoxic Syndrome:

Warning over toxic fumes in plane cabins - Telegraph

Ahernar 22nd Feb 2015 06:31

I smell a big BS . Where is the data ? ONE doctor ?! Personally from my knowledge of how stuff works i believe that the air in a big city is much worse in pollutants that the compressed cabin air . The biological agents are another story but same thing happens even in a bus . Any doctors here ?

jack11111 22nd Feb 2015 06:43

Latest on Aerotoxic Syndrome
 
Now, how are we going to put this genie back in the bottle?

wiggy 22nd Feb 2015 06:54

Whilst I've seen a few news reports in the UK (most prominently in the Mail and the Telegraph - "sister" newspapers) on the coroner's request, I don't see any real claim of an evidential "breakthrough", just the usual cycle of demands and issuing of denials, and various claims..

(FWIW I'm trying to keep an open mind on this subject).

ILS27LEFT 22nd Feb 2015 09:42

Here we go again: human beings and brainwashing
 
Unfortunately we live in a society where profit takes over on anything else, including our own health and the future of our kids.
I am very frightened by profit and human greed, capitalism is clearly degenerating into a monster. I am not suggesting a diversion towards "communism", we only must be aware of the risks and protect our future, our health and our planet.
Each day I read of working conditions being eroded, across all industries.
An unacceptable high number of workers in the UK are earning less than the minimum wage, I do not want this future for our kids. A future with a tiny % of population earning ridiculous amount of money when everybody else lives in poverty-like conditions. Back to middle age.
The Aerotoxic Syndrome is very real, we all know. Let's not forget that until a few years ago we were all allowed to smoke on airplanes and in pubs. Now this seems crazy, we have learnt but too slowly. Aerotoxic Syndrome is the same concept as smoking in public spaces: new rules will be introduced and air cabin quality will improve by new legislation but it will be too late for many of us by then.
This is the result of putting profit and human greed at the heart of our lives. We are selfish.
Cancer is killing so many of us, mental health is a huge problem, suicide rates are extremely high, stress is a huge hidden disease, we are all overworked, overstretched, many are clearly not happy... living and becoming ill in the name of profit and money ...but life is only one. Let's not forget it.:*
This syndrome is only another example of our irrational lives.:ok:
PROFIT BEFORE SAFETY AGAIN?

rh200 22nd Feb 2015 10:23


I am very frightened by profit and human greed, capitalism is clearly degenerating into a monster.
Hardly, its all about ignorance and legislation, we don't put it in, they arn't going to follow it. I don't know about you, but I expect my accountant to find every legal means necessary to minimize my tax, and I try every means I can to make as much money as possible. Don't see why companies can't do the same thing.

As for aerotoxic syndrome, its all about statistics, it could be a very real risk, but what level? nothing is absolute. Until someone can do the statistics that show its an unacceptable risk, there not going to treat it seriously. No rocket science in that.

The 146's were/is the obvious apparent outliers in the stats.

wiggy 22nd Feb 2015 11:09

ILS27Left

I'd agree about the increasing pressure and stress but...


This is the result of putting profit and human greed at the heart of our lives. We are selfish.
Cancer is killing so many of us
I hate to break it to you but cancer has been a mass killer since the year dot and certainly well before the days of capitalism - it's responsible for about 1 in 4 deaths in the general population. Not cheery news I know, but as rh said "its all about statistics".

Aluminium shuffler 22nd Feb 2015 11:32

Ahernar, your attitude marks you as someone with a vested interest in making this go away cheaply. It is a very real issue that causes severe harm to quite a number of people, and in some cases ultimately kills them. I have seen it first hand, as have many others.

That it has taken so long for it to be taken seriously by anyone shows how corrupt the authorities, governments and businesses are. As for city air being more toxic, there are many variables - the city, the weather and the aircraft type - a 787 is going to be positively fresh compared to Giangzou in a smoggy day, but an Avro 146 or 757 are not good places to be. Remember that only a proportion of city air has been through an engine or other machine; on an airliner all of the cabin air has. That means concentrations of harmful gasses can be damagingly high, and there is no way to escape them.

F6HellCat 22nd Feb 2015 11:41

there is without a doubt a problem with bleed air being contaminated with toxic fumes from the engines. Its not rocket science. The seals from the compressors wear down over time and leak oil which is burnt and the resulting fumes (which are highly toxic) enter the bleed air system which we breath. This is a known fact. What we dont know is what are the acceptable levels of toxic fumes that we can breath and how much of it our bodies can naturally expel over how much time and how much of it remains in our system. The truth is that we have no idea and that is the scary problem.

People have died because of this. It doest take a genius to know that breathing toxic fumes can kill you. With the increase in air travel and short haul airlines pushing FTL I think there will sadly be more and more case of aircrew and pax becoming sick.

Also an indirect admission to the fact that there is a problem with the bleed system is the change from traditional pneumatic system to electrical bleed air system. All the new A/C such as the 787 and all the Neo 73's and 320s have electrical bleed systems which do not tap bleed air from engines.

barit1 22nd Feb 2015 12:06

In cert testing an engine for exhaust emissions - sampling is done at both the exhaust AND the inlet.

And it is not unusual for the exhaust to be CLEANER than the inlet air. :ok:

phiggsbroadband 22nd Feb 2015 12:21

I would hope that the tapping for the Bleed-Air would be 'upstream' of any lubricated bearings...
Perhaps some Engine Gurus could put us in the picture.

F6HellCat 22nd Feb 2015 12:31

Barit1 yes jet engines also double as air purifiers you wouldnt happen to work for CFM or RR by any chance do you?

oscar zoroaster 22nd Feb 2015 13:02

Poor writing from a science standpoint.
 
MD here.
I have no expertise in this particular area. I have no bias as to the reality of breathing compressed air and its causal relationship to illness.
In general however, I have high levels of skepticism when facts are lacking and the presented facts lack details. The coroners report is presented in what must be an edited format (allowing for misrepresentation and loss of context). The coroner misuses the term "symptom" (which is a patient reported complaint - obviously not possible EVER to a coroner) in place of "sign" (which refers to a physician observed physical finding). It is a minor issue, but sloppiness predicts sloppiness. There are no details given as to the specificity of biochemical changes in blood work or tissue sample specific pathologic alterations (which is the essence of pathologic assessment). It may be there but not understood as important from a non-science reporter and therefore not included. It would be a very simple exercise to measure chemicals in cabin compressed air, and similarly to search for those compounds in blood and tissues (again perhaps done and not reported). But then one must have tissue pathology that is causally related to those inhaled compounds. Again not presented.
There may be a problem, but that specific article does nothing but raise unsubstantiated alarm.

lomapaseo 22nd Feb 2015 13:03


I would hope that the tapping for the Bleed-Air would be 'upstream' of any lubricated bearings...
Perhaps some Engine Gurus could put us in the picture.
Kind of hard to do seeing as you have bearings at the front and back of compressors.

Where's "Dreamcatcher" to wrap up this thread in a link to the constant running similar thread in this forum?

joy ride 22nd Feb 2015 13:40

I remember Private Eye reporting these problems (particularly in Australia) perhaps 20 years or more ago and linked with a small 4 engined airliner with similar engines to those in Chinooks.

Ian W 22nd Feb 2015 15:13


Originally Posted by F6HellCat (Post 8876015)
there is without a doubt a problem with bleed air being contaminated with toxic fumes from the engines. Its not rocket science. The seals from the compressors wear down over time and leak oil which is burnt and the resulting fumes (which are highly toxic) enter the bleed air system which we breath. This is a known fact. What we dont know is what are the acceptable levels of toxic fumes that we can breath and how much of it our bodies can naturally expel over how much time and how much of it remains in our system. The truth is that we have no idea and that is the scary problem.

People have died because of this. It doest take a genius to know that breathing toxic fumes can kill you. With the increase in air travel and short haul airlines pushing FTL I think there will sadly be more and more case of aircrew and pax becoming sick.

Also an indirect admission to the fact that there is a problem with the bleed system is the change from traditional pneumatic system to electrical bleed air system. All the new A/C such as the 787 and all the Neo 73's and 320s have electrical bleed systems which do not tap bleed air from engines.

Just some points to lower the hyperbole level a little.

1. The fumes occur when the oil seals are worn - that is perhaps the maintenance schedules need investigation.

2. Some people are far more sensitive to these fumes than others. That is to do with the speed with which their metabolism breaks down the emissions involved. Some people are unaffected some are highly susceptible. Perhaps those people should avoid 146 or 757.

3. The change to electric pumped systems was not an admission of any kind about the use of bleed air: it was done to improve engine efficiency as extracting air from the final stages of the compressor is a considerable efficiency loss. Use of electric compressors also means that air recycling can be increased whereas bleed air recycling is typically reduced to assist engine efficiency whether this improves the burnt oil problem is difficult to judge.

There are definitely some people who are very sensitive to the burned oil fumes (organophosphates). Does that mean that there is a major problem with the aircraft? There are probably as many people sensitive to nuts, should restaurants and the airlines stop serving them?

Pacific Blue 22nd Feb 2015 15:23

We should be at a stage now where organophosphate fumes are minimised from entering the cabin. A 3 pronged solution would be the fitting of adequate air filters, a cabin monitoring detection system to highlight any elevated levels plus use of less toxic engine oil. To compare this to peanut allergy is absurd as most sufferers can manage to avoid peanuts whereas most airline crew and passengers have no such luxury.

AirScotia 22nd Feb 2015 15:36


2. Some people are far more sensitive to these fumes than others. That is to do with the speed with which their metabolism breaks down the emissions involved. Some people are unaffected some are highly susceptible. Perhaps those people should avoid 146 or 757.
How would people know whether they're genetically sensitive or not? Is there a test?

How could pax avoid particular a/c types anyway? It's the company that chooses the type and may substitute at short notice. And some routes are covered by only one company, using only one type.

Ian W 22nd Feb 2015 17:03


Originally Posted by Pacific Blue (Post 8876247)
We should be at a stage now where organophosphate fumes are minimised from entering the cabin. A 3 pronged solution would be the fitting of adequate air filters, a cabin monitoring detection system to highlight any elevated levels plus use of less toxic engine oil. To compare this to peanut allergy is absurd as most sufferers can manage to avoid peanuts whereas most airline crew and passengers have no such luxury.

It does not affect pax as they do not get sufficiently exposed unless it is a real 'fume event'.

Crew members if they find they are badly affected could transfer to a different aircraft type. The main issue is accepting that there are crew members that are badly affected as they are more sensitive- whereas the majority are not. And that there are aircraft that have more of a problem than others that may need more frequent oil seal changes or perhaps an oil seal redesign.


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:33.


Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.