PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

obgraham 28th Oct 2014 00:12

We could always start a NEW Muslim thread. It would keep him occupied.

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:12

Ptt, are you really that thick?

I kinda think brick wasn't exactly in your court.

Just to be especially clear for the special needs posters, I was suggesting that it might be presumptuous of me (or someone else perhaps) to pontificate about the ills of someone else's country


I

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:15

As usual, con beat me to the pith of the matter.


I'll just go and make a little snack myself.

PTT 28th Oct 2014 00:19

421dog - you can pontificate all you like about the ills of my country. There are certainly enough of them to pontificate on and I wouldn't find it presumptuous at all: I'm not pretending that we in the UK are the only ones with the answers to the UK's woes.

So if that's all well and good with you (or even if it isn't) then the rest of us will carry on talking about whatever we want in whichever country we want whenever we like so long as the mods allow it. If you don't like it then don't read it.

con-pilot - enjoy the popcorn. Post 270 was my last post on the subject matter at hand.

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:23

'Strikes me that I've said nothing at all about the ills of your fair isle. I think it's a pretty nice place when you see fit to let me visit.
On the other hand, you seem bent upon telling me how to run my country when you've no skin in the game.

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Oct 2014 00:25

You're not getting it Dog, stop digging.

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:29

Back at you.

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Oct 2014 00:31

What?,.,,.,......

PTT 28th Oct 2014 00:32

421dog - indeed you have not but, and this is the really important bit: you can any time you like. That works both ways.

brickhistory 28th Oct 2014 00:33

421dog

try my new 5.7
I've read a bit about them, but never shot one. Looks intriguing.

mixture

Stick the middle finger up in the direction of the NRA and let the law makers do what they should have a long time ago...
You make my point. A non-US ppruner instructing America on what it should do.

As well as illustrating another point: The NRA has around 5 million members. Despite those low numbers compared to the US population in general and the liberals in particular, how come those desired by you - "what they should have a long time ago" - doesn't get done.

Why is that?

Hint: Lots of folks don't like Uncle Sam, or foreigners telling us what to do.

Or how to do it.

LSM

stop digging.
Again the very Euro trait of telling an American on what he/she should do.

No doubt ignored as the case for the second half of the 20th century and, so far, the 21st.

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Oct 2014 00:36


Again the very Euro trait of telling an American on what he/she should do.
And?.......

mixture 28th Oct 2014 00:38


As well as illustrating another point: The NRA has around 5 million members. Despite those low numbers compared to the US population in general and the liberals in particular, how come those desired by you - "what they should have a long time ago" - doesn't get done. Why is that?
I think you know the answer !

We all know the NRA has the politicians wrapped around its grubby little finger ...

Its has, unfortunately, had 143 years to perfect its lobbying and spent almost $3.5m doing so last year !

brickhistory 28th Oct 2014 00:38


And?
You should be used to being ignored by now.

Only big dogs allowed at the table.

Little yippy ones get the scraps...

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:40

I get the idea that ptt suggests that bilateral criticism is acceptable, but, you see, it's really not,

because, it's ok for the eastern cousins to pontificate, while we on the west need to acknowledge the socio-intellectual superiority of the former

and let them spout off ad nauseum about that of which they know nothing.

We live here. It's not a game, and we hold our rights sacrosanct.

Many of us died to assert and maintain them.

They're not a matter for idle criticism by "subjects" who chose to give them up long ago

brickhistory 28th Oct 2014 00:41


We all know the NRA has the politicians wrapped around its grubby little
finger ...
All five million members dictating the internal actions of 300+ million Americans.

An all powerful minority that has to be responsible for the actions of many others who are simply powerless to do otherwise.

Where have we heard that before?

mixture 28th Oct 2014 00:45


An all powerful minority that has to be responsible for the actions of many others who are simply powerless to do otherwise.

Where have we heard that before?
George W Bush in the "justification" for Iraq and Afghanistan ? :cool:

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:45

And with only 3.5 million bucks?

Heck, Bloomberg gave that much to the antithetical cause just last month.

PTT 28th Oct 2014 00:46


you see, it's really not
Oh but it is.

it's ok for the eastern cousins to pontificate, while we on the west need to acknowledge the socio-intellectual superiority of the former

and let them spout off ad nauseum about that of which they know nothing.
Or you could take part, offer critique and educate where our knowledge is so severely lacking rather than trying to shut us up.

Many of us died to assert and maintain them.
You didn't.

They're not a matter for idle criticism by "subjects" who chose to give them up long ago
Yes, they are. Any form of government is subject to criticism. If it can't stand up to that criticism then there's clearly something wrong with it; conversely, if it is worth keeping then it will stand up to criticism.

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Oct 2014 00:46


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8716892)
You should be used to being ignored by now.

Are you making a funny?

mixture 28th Oct 2014 00:48


And with only 3.5 million bucks?
Heck, Bloomberg gave that much to the antithetical cause just last month.
Don't forget the NRA's "affiliated organisations" ....

You really can't deny their bully style lobbying of politicians... hell, all you need to do is a Google search and many of your home-brewed newspapers have headlines calling them "bullet proof".

brickhistory 28th Oct 2014 00:49


George W Bush in the "justification" for Iraq and Afghanistan ?
And the little yippy countries couldn't bark shrilly enough or jump high enough to get on that bandwagon.*

Except the French in Iraq. They had a spine and will of their own to say "Non!"

The French, for goodness' sake!




*said in jest and to make a point. I, personally, am grateful for the UK, Aussie, and other allies who stand with us.

brickhistory 28th Oct 2014 00:51


Don't forget the NRA's "affiliated organisations" ....
If only there were a way, or the numbers in money or voters, to counteract these mean folks.

If only...

mixture 28th Oct 2014 00:52


I, personally, am grateful for the UK, Aussie, and other allies who stand with us.
Well, someone had to clear up the mess you left behind when George Dubbya declared "We don't do nation building".....

But anyway... lets not digress onto that hamster wheel !

brickhistory 28th Oct 2014 00:56

Then don't write


George W Bush in the "justification" for Iraq and Afghanistan ?
then offer protestations of thread drift.

Otherwise, one could detect whiffs of hypocrisy and that will never do coming from Europe.

The ability to direct the actions of others from high atop horseback must remain unsullied.

421dog 28th Oct 2014 00:57

Ok.

I personally find it unacceptable that it should be possible that a couple of punks with a big knife could so cow the general populace that they could, with impunity, hack off the head of a soldier and then stand around gloating in front of the horrified and impotent crowd until someone could be brought in with a gun from somewhere far away.





There. Didn't accomplish much did it?

I'm still gonna come to London to go to the theater, and you're still going to think I'm wrong about guns, but now you think I'm really a ****** because I criticized your way of doing things in light of a tragic incident.

I think it would be better if we sympathized but refrained from impugning each other, especially absent direct experience.

421dog 28th Oct 2014 01:08

Oh, and I really hope that the guy running the clock at the lions game yesterday was not British.

If he was, he has a bright future as a Democratic election judge should be choose to (illegally) immigrate.

rh200 28th Oct 2014 01:10


The U.S. Has a lot of guns in circulation - lots of gun deaths,The rest of the OECD countries have few guns in circulation - few gun deaths. If you take it to its logical conclusion if there were no guns in our societies there would be no gun deaths.
A very simplistic argument, but true. You could apply that analogy to a lot of extremist view points.

Of interest is the point about there must be something wrong mentally if its not the case. Well you need to look at the overall society statistics on deaths, suicides, attempted etc to get an overall picture to compare. Then you might need to apply some cultural normalization coefficient to the data.

The point is, if the guns where hypothetically removed, would all those people still be killed, ,maimed etc, if not how many. So the question, is America significantly worse off overall than a lot of Western countries, if it is why? If not then the gun is just a tool used to carry out what was always going to happen anyway.

Dushan 28th Oct 2014 01:12


Originally Posted by 421dog (Post 8716902)
And with only 3.5 million bucks?

Heck, Bloomberg gave that much to the antithetical cause just last month.


I was thinking the same. What is 3.5 mil in the world of lobbying, these days. It hardly buys lunch.

If it takes only 3.5 mil to keep the Second, Soros & Co. would have long ago have defeated it.

Dushan 28th Oct 2014 01:14


Originally Posted by mixture (Post 8716909)
Don't forget the NRA's "affiliated organisations" ....

You really can't deny their bully style lobbying of politicians... hell, all you need to do is a Google search and many of your home-brewed newspapers have headlines calling them "bullet proof".

They are "bullet proof" because they stand for one of the 10 amendments that make up the Bill of Rights. Very significant status that is.

con-pilot 28th Oct 2014 01:33

PTT


con-pilot - enjoy the popcorn. Post 270 was my last post on the subject matter at hand.
Post 270 was your last post on the "subject matter at hand"? Really?

Seems like you've added a few more.

galaxy flyer 28th Oct 2014 02:08

mixture,

I presume you are just as willing to give up your rights like, er, ah...well, how about a jury trial, presumption of innocence, speech, having a vote?

GF

IBMJunkman 28th Oct 2014 02:30

421dog,

You mean the FN Five-seveN ?

I love mine. Ammo hard to find at decent price. Was thinking of building a 5.7 AR15.

John Hill 28th Oct 2014 02:53


Originally Posted by 421dog
I personally find it unacceptable that it should be possible that a couple of punks with a big knife could so cow the general populace that they could, with impunity, hack off the head ............

Seems that is pretty much what happened on three out of the four 911 aircraft?

rh200 28th Oct 2014 03:19


Seems that is pretty much what happened on three out of the four 911 aircraft?
Fundamentally thats true, but we shouldn't compare apples and oranges. Up to 911 the general consensus with aircraft hijacking was to do as ones told. When on the ground all the action would happen and there was a high probability of a reasonable outcome.

911 changed that, and frankly the airport security should concentrate on things which can mass subdue passengers or bring an aircraft down. There is no way that passengers would allow a repeat of 911.

A few people with with knives are not going to hold off a cabin load of people. And theres the problem, are we prepared to take action and put ourselves in harms way?

We seemed to act like sheep these days and not intervene if we think we might get hurt. There have been several instances of people carrying out acts they should not have been able to, if they where mobbed. This whole "the authorities will protect us thing" and sense of entitlement is at the root cause.

I was going along the road one day and noticed this small fire on the median strip, barely the size of a hand. Pulled over and put it out. The next week was recounting the story to a table load of colleagues (academics so mainly lefties) and what did one say with indignation, "why did you that, its the fire brigades job":ugh:

mixture 28th Oct 2014 07:15


with impunity, hack off the head of a soldier and then stand around gloating in front of the horrified and impotent crowd until someone could be brought in with a gun from somewhere far away.
I don't see what that's got to do with the price of eggs (or the US's terrible gun statistics).

It also demonstrates that you don't need to arm every Police officer with a gun. Such incidents are so incredibly rare in Europe that quite frankly I think it demonstrates the quality of European Police training that they were able to safely contain the subject without guns. Oh, and it wasn't far away... and there's no need for it to change.... a few small groups of firearms officers to cover the capital is more than enough to ensure the safety of the public in Europe !


I presume you are just as willing to give up your rights like, er, ah...well, how about a jury trial, presumption of innocence, speech, having a vote?
What has that got to do with the price of eggs ? Sounds like you trying to clutch at straws.....

PTT 28th Oct 2014 07:41

con-pilot - yes, 270 was my most recent post on the subject of guns. The later ones have been in response to people from the land of free speech trying to tell me what I can and cannot talk about.

rh200


The U.S. Has a lot of guns in circulation - lots of gun deaths,The rest of the OECD countries have few guns in circulation - few gun deaths. If you take it to its logical conclusion if there were no guns in our societies there would be no gun deaths.
A very simplistic argument, but true. You could apply that analogy to a lot of extremist view points.
Like I said, correlation is not causation. I'm not saying gun ownership is not a factor, and certainly there is a correlation even within the US, but it is not necessarily causal:
http://www.motherjones.com/files/ownership-death630.png

Keef 28th Oct 2014 09:37

I've scratched my head at this one many times over the decades, and failed to "get it" every time.

I've come to realise that in the USA it's seen as an absolute and inalienable right to be able to kill other people. It seems to happen aplenty. Guns are the chosen medium for many, although of course guns don't kill people .... people do (actually, bullets do but let's not go there). There are plenty of statistics that show how highly effective this isn't (examples above), but the statistics are invalid, for reasons I never quite got my non-statistician head round.

Even Passport Control officers at US airports have to be armed so that they can shoot people. I don't follow the logic of that, but I know that it is so and essential that it be so. I shrug, and don't argue with US passport checkers. If they tell me to turn round and get back on the aeroplane and go back where I came from, well ...

The Second Amendment was, I understand, aimed at allowing US citizens to have guns to form a regulated militia to stand against the dastardly English who had been "in charge" and were no longer wanted. That worked well. The militia bit is forgotten these days - you can now be an undisciplined one-man militia if you wish. Bearing arms against the Government is absolutely every person's right, and I'm assured a group of citizens really could march with their guns on Congress and turf them out. The US military wouldn't intervene (just as it didn't intervene at Kent State).

In reality, I reckon a few thousand NRA supporters with their AK47s marching on Congress might be in for a nasty surprise, but I could be wrong.

The bottom line is that the USA is so awash with firearms that even if they were banned, most would "disappear" like my grandfather's service revolver, and little would be achieved. So the USA will continue to live with high rates of gun death and madmen slaughtering children in schools and universities. Europe will continue to suffer the inevitable occasional horrific event, which will be proof that if we had a gun culture that wouldn't happen ... just as it doesn't happen in the USA...

No, I don't get it. I never will. But I know it to be so.

Dushan 28th Oct 2014 11:46

Keef, I know you don't get it, bit you may at least try to get the facts straight.

Border control (you call it passport control, it is a lot more than that) officers are uniformed officers. Not all are stationed at JFK. Some are stationed on a remote forest road crossing. Surely you don't suggest they should not be armed? And since it is a uniform, they all have the same equipment.

As for Kent State, you may want to read your own link:


The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre)[2][3][4] occurred at Kent State University in the US city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5][6]

rgbrock1 28th Oct 2014 12:01

421dog wrote:


Ptt, are you really that thick?

I kinda think brick wasn't exactly in your court.
See what I did there for you 421? You're welcome! :ok::}:E

Lord Spandex Masher 28th Oct 2014 13:07


Originally Posted by Rosa Parks
The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre)[2][3][4] occurred at Kent State University in the US city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5][6]

The same Ohio NG that is part of that states organised militia and that has been part of combat operations since before WW1 and into Iraq. Surely you're not suggestion they aren't military?


All times are GMT. The time now is 14:31.


Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.