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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

IBMJunkman 27th Oct 2014 03:21

Seldomfitforpurpose

Amendments are not amended. They are repealed by another amendment. The 18th Amendment started alcohol prohibition. It was repealed by the 21st Amendment. The process includes getting 3/4 of the States to agree. It will be nigh impossible to get 38 states to agree to repeal the 2nd.

Krystal n chips 27th Oct 2014 06:17

I imagine at that time the anti gun crowd will wish that the country held more than a handful of individuals who were capable of handling a firearm so that they could be rapidly absorbed into a self-defense force.

There are those that argue that an armed American public could not stand up to a rogue American government, I would argue that an unarmed UK population would have even less chance of standing up to its rioting immigrant population


Do have any basis for the above fantasy ?

BOING 27th Oct 2014 07:26

KC
You tell me why it is a fantasy. Your turn to do the research.

Come on, supply concise reasons why riots by immigrant populations can't occur. No smokescreen, just the facts.


.

Seldomfitforpurpose 27th Oct 2014 07:49


Originally Posted by 421dog (Post 8715432)

Think about it, if we made it possible for every business traveler (with 12 weeks of training and a background check, at his expense) to get a substantial discount in exchange for carrying a gun on domestic flights, we'd never have another peep out of the middle eastern element.

At first glance the idea has merit but do you remember this

Police: Texting argument in movie theater sparks fatal shooting - CNN.com

Imagine your average flight with noisy kids, noisy neighbours, the guy behind continually bumping your chair etc etc etc and then throw a big bag of guns into the mix...............

This is not a popular viewpoint on here but the answer is NOT more guns.

bcgallacher 27th Oct 2014 12:43

421Dog does your mum let you out on your own? I have seen some daft ideas regarding firearms on Jetblast but I think that one is about the most insane to date.

rgbrock1 27th Oct 2014 12:49

Zaphod wrote:


gun ownership illegal it would preserve the right "when serving in the militia" which is something we don't have now anyway.


We don't have anyway? Ya think? Tee-hee.

And as for John Paul Stevens? No one gives a rat's ass what he thinks. The Founders said all that needed to be said about this lofty topic. So what Stevens has to say is irrelevant. And falls on deaf ears. (La-la-la-la-la I can't hear you, la-la-la-la-la)

Lonewolf_50 27th Oct 2014 14:40


Originally Posted by John Hill (Post 8713721)
I disagree with any contention that the modern American gun culture is "well regulated".

Your ignorance is noted. There are volumes and volumes of regulation regarding firearms.

Suggest you begin to do a little homework before running off at the mouth.

Lonewolf_50 27th Oct 2014 14:42


Originally Posted by Fliegenmong (Post 8713927)
If the US is attacked by a nuclear weapon used by Islamic terrorist, I think you can count on Mecca disappearing.

And not before time......should have happened Sept 12....

Concur, but it would take a bit more than rifles/pistols/shotguns to manage that. A nuke is another matter ...

Lonewolf_50 27th Oct 2014 14:48


The U.S. Has about 300 million firearms in society, the result of this is an annual death rate of about 30,000 by gunshot. The
You fail to demonstrate understanding of the difference between causation and correlation. Until you can demonstrate that, please stop trying to create yet another ignorant/ill informed argument.
You just make yourself look silly.

The actual fact is that most firearms owners don't commit crimes with their weapons. That simple and verfiable fact contradicts your foolishness with numbers.

As I've pointed out before to PTT, it's the Indian, not the arrow. Accidents still happen, as they do with any tech: the stupid and those near them get hurt. That's been true since the wheel was invented.

As to whichever ignoramus said "amendment" is the key word, you are invited to understand just what the first Ten Amendments are, and why they are called the Bill of Rights, and why the states/founding fathers found them necessary in order for the government to function under the principles of its founding.

A little learning is a dangerous thing .. as it makes you look the fool when you display just how little you know.

Mind you, this topic is typically worth a semester course at university. There's a lot to it. But for those with short attention spans, here is some help from the US Government's site on the Constitution.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...of_rights.html

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...n_history.html

Your only hope for solving ignorance is to do some research. And while you are so doing, try to keep an open mind. I realize that's a real problem for non Americans who think our Rights are theirs to solve, but try anyway. It will be an enlightening experience.

rgbrock1 27th Oct 2014 14:53

Almost 62% of gun deaths in the United States are suicides. The statistic speaks for itself.

Lonewolf_50 27th Oct 2014 15:04

At that range, it's hard to miss. :p

However, there is at least one case in our county of someone trying to kill herself, with a pistol, and failing. (A young lady who went to school with my daughter).

That kind of failure has got to be depressing, and be a signal to someone of how useless/hopeless they are.
It might even lead one to try and kill one's self ... oh, wait, failed at that too! (Keep her away from the medicine cabinet!!!!!!!!!!)

It might also lead one to find religion.

rgbrock1 27th Oct 2014 15:06

LW50:

A couple of years back a guy in NY shot himself in the head, as his preferred method of suicide. Went in the front of his head, and out the back.

He lived.

Keef 27th Oct 2014 16:48

Proves a couple of things, I suppose.

rgbrock1 27th Oct 2014 16:53

Keef wrote:


Proves a couple of things, I suppose.
Yes it does, doesn't it? One being he's a shitty shot. :}:E

Lord Spandex Masher 27th Oct 2014 17:10


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8716202)
Your ignorance is noted. There are volumes and volumes of regulation regarding firearms.

Hmmmm, just because you have a lot of regulation doesn't meant it is well regulated.

BenThere 27th Oct 2014 17:13

Can't argue with that conclusion, LSM. The greatest problems with guns are in the most regulated jurisdictions as a rule.

Lonewolf_50 27th Oct 2014 17:14

LSM, depending upon the locale, what you say may be true.
The anti-gun idiots have as a plank in their platform the assertion that more regulation is required.
That has what chance to be well regulated, if what you assert is true?

Krystal n chips 27th Oct 2014 18:00

Come on, supply concise reasons why riots by immigrant populations can't occur. No smokescreen, just the facts

Well, since you asked.

In your fantasy, or even wishful thinking, it's difficult to make the distinction with the content of your post, how, exactly do you propose that "ethnic groups"....it couldn't, heaven forbid, be any white Anglo-Saxon paragons after all ! ....arm themselves, then form themselves into a cohesive force that would, according to your proposal that is, would subsequently overrun the UK population simply because, thankfully !...the bulk of the population do not have any need, or wish, to hold a weapon.

We have had the odd riot, or two, but strangely, the police and security services seem to be doing quite a reasonable job of containment of these marauding hordes now poised to sweep the length and breadth of the UK.

I believe the police now have a standard question when stopping people, "Do you have anything on you, you shouldn't have ?".

If you are ever stopped in the UK, just say "my imagination "....and you'll be fine.

John Hill 27th Oct 2014 18:02


Originally Posted by rgbrock1
Almost 62% of gun deaths in the United States are suicides. The statistic speaks for itself.

We need another statistic, how many of those suicides are with guns that belong to someone else?

Lon More 27th Oct 2014 18:09


Almost 62% of gun deaths in the United States are suicides
This one, not a suicide attempt, almost suceeded.

Shotgun Fail. - YouTube

421dog 27th Oct 2014 18:22


At first glance the idea has merit but do you remember this

Police: Texting argument in movie theater sparks fatal shooting - CNN.com

Imagine your average flight with noisy kids, noisy neighbours, the guy behind continually bumping your chair etc etc etc and then throw a big bag of guns into the mix...............

This is not a popular viewpoint on here but the answer is NOT more guns.

The shooter in this case was a police officer.

The idea of restricting gun ownership to people who don't have any more skin in the game than he had is inane.

Your average sworn officer has 12 weeks or less of initial training, only a small part of which is devoted to firearms. They are paid to do a specific job, and enjoy a certain amount of laxity in the standard to which they are held when it comes to the use of deadly force.

A businessman who takes the time, spends the money and accepts the phenomenal legal and moral responsibility of obtaining and maintaining a CCW, while not enjoying any more privilege than the population at large in the name of "personal safety" or "getting home to my family" is an entirely different animal.

Why would we not avail ourselves of citizens who are willing to bear this burden, to great societal advantage, on their own nickle and at their severe legal peril?

bcgallacher 27th Oct 2014 19:05

SFP How about this one - Airbus A380 with 500 pax on board has a problem with a violent passenger - 20 or 30 'armed business men ' haul out the Glocks, who decides who is the bad guy or do they just shoot at anyone with a gun. The term ' Gun nut' has now taken on a whole new meaning. This post has been sent from a brand new 787 with flight available Wi Fi en route from Edinburgh to Doha at 41,000 ft. The marvels of modern science - never fails to impress an old fart like me. The only problem is we departed EDI 4 hrs late and we have missed our connection to MNL.

421dog 27th Oct 2014 19:25

Really...
well, check this out:
Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed

Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service




The Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service maintains oversight of the Law Enforcement Officers flying armed program under Title 49 Code of Federal Regulation (CFR) § 1544.219 Carriage of Accessible Weapons.
To qualify to fly armed, Federal Regulation states that an officer must meet the following basic requirements:
  • Be a Federal Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) or a full-time municipal, county, or state LEO who is a direct employee of a government agency.
  • Be sworn and commissioned to enforce criminal statutes or immigration statutes.
  • Be authorized by the employing agency to have the weapon in connection with assigned duties.
  • Have completed the training program, ‘‘Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed.”
In addition to the above requirements, the officer must need to have the weapon accessible from the time he or she would otherwise check the weapon until the time it would be claimed after deplaning. The need to have the weapon accessible must be determined by the employing agency, department, or service and be based on one of the following:
  • The provision of protective duty, for instance, assigned to a principal or advance team, or on travel required to be prepared to engage in a protective function.
  • The conduct of a hazardous surveillance operation.
  • On official travel required to report to another location, armed and prepared for duty.
  • Employed as a Federal LEO, whether or not on official travel, and armed in accordance with an agency-wide policy governing that type of travel established by the employing agency by directive or policy statement.
  • Control of a prisoner, in accordance with Title 49 CFR § 1544.221, or an armed LEO on a round trip ticket returning from escorting, or traveling to pick up a prisoner.
State, Local, Territorial, Tribal, and approved Railroad LEOs flying armed must submit a National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System (NLETS) message prior to travel. The NLETS message replaces the Original Letter of Authority, commonly referred to as the “Chief’s Letter.” Failure to use the NLETS message will result in denial to the sterile area for failure to comply with the “Letter of Authority.” More information on this procedure is contained in the training program.
The Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed training is a 1.5 to 2 hour block of instruction that is comprised of a structured lesson plan, slide presentation, FAQs, NLETS procedures, and applicable codes of federal regulation. This material is provided to Federal, State, Local, Territorial, Tribal, and approved Railroad Law Enforcement agencies and departments to properly instruct their officers on the subject of flying on board commercial aircraft while armed. The training includes protocols in the handling of prohibited items, prisoner transport, and dealing with an act of criminal violence aboard an aircraft.
The program training material may be obtained by emailing the Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service, Office of Training and Workforce Programs, at [email protected]. To request this training material you must:
  • Be a full-time law enforcement officer meeting the instructor qualification standards of the agency, academy, or department in which you are employed.
  • Send the request from a governmental email address.
  • Include the following information in the body of the email:
Your name and contact information.
Your department’s name and address.
Your supervisor’s name and contact information.
If you are not a qualified instructor, please request a member of your training staff to contact us by email.
For general questions or guidance related to Law Enforcement Officers flying armed or for time sensitive training requests, please contact the Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service at (855) FLY-LEOS (359-5367) or [email protected].
The links on this web page should only be used by law enforcement agencies and departments who are seeking information on the subject of flying on board commercial aircraft while armed. Please do not submit inquiries about employment opportunities to the above e-mail addresses.



Prohibited Items




We would like to remind federal officers and agents, whether on official or non-official travel, and state and local officers and agents on official travel not to transport prohibited items, which are not necessary for the performance of their official duties, through security checkpoints or onboard aircraft while traveling armed. Regulations surrounding prohibited carry-on items and associated security checkpoint procedures are covered in the training material. Particular attention should be given to the prohibition against carrying hazardous materials, such as pepper spray or mace, in carry-on bags. For more information read our prohibited items section.







Paperwork Reduction Act Statement




An agency may not conduct or sponsor, and a person is not required to respond to a collection of information unless it displays a valid OMB control number.

Transportation Security Administration estimates that the average burden for collection is 5 minutes per response. You may submit any comments concerning the accuracy of this burden estimate or any suggestions for reducing the burden to: TSA-11, Attention: PRA 1652-0034 601 South 12th Street, Arlington, VA 20598.
OMB NO. 1652-0034 Expiration Date: 11/30/2011.










Latest revision: 09 May 2013



1.5-2 hrs of training to carry a gun on an airplane as a policeman...

Still think the businessman who spent 12 weeks doing nothing but learning to deal with armed threats on aircraft is a bad idea?

bcgallacher 27th Oct 2014 19:30

Lone wolf 50 The U.S. Has a lot of guns in circulation - lots of gun deaths,The rest of the OECD countries have few guns in circulation - few gun deaths. If you take it to its logical conclusion if there were no guns in our societies there would be no gun deaths. If it is not the number of guns then there must be some defect in the American character that causes you to shoot yourselves and each other in such comparatively large numbers. I am in no doubt that we have the same percentage of the irresponsible,idiots and the just plain vicious in our society - the difference is that it is difficult and expensive to acquire a firearm - particularly a hand gun. Most of the shootings here are carried out with converted blank firing pistols and replicas probably more dangerous to the shooter.

rgbrock1 27th Oct 2014 19:33

As an armed law enforcement officer "particular attention should be given to the prohibition against carrying hazardous materials, such as pepper spray or mace, in carry-on bags."

Bwaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaa. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

421dog 27th Oct 2014 19:42

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against law enforcement, but we need to keep in mind that there's nothing different about civic minded citizens, regardless of their profession.

Treating everyone who doesn't wear a badge as a criminal in the name of safety is just really poor policy.

Oh, and I don't know many people who I wouldn't trust with toothpaste or mouthwash in >100ml containers either.

Dushan 27th Oct 2014 20:18


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 8716488)
SFP How about this one - Airbus A380 with 500 pax on board has a problem with a violent passenger - 20 or 30 'armed business men ' haul out the Glocks, who decides who is the bad guy or do they just shoot at anyone with a gun. The term ' Gun nut' has now taken on a whole new meaning. This post has been sent from a brand new 787 with flight available Wi Fi en route from Edinburgh to Doha at 41,000 ft. The marvels of modern science - never fails to impress an old fart like me. The only problem is we departed EDI 4 hrs late and we have missed our connection to MNL.

Easy, peasy. They are all bad guys. Proper sidearm for this job is a Heckler & Koch HK45 COMPACT.

Dushan 27th Oct 2014 20:22


Originally Posted by rgbrock1 (Post 8716519)
As an armed law enforcement officer "particular attention should be given to the prohibition against carrying hazardous materials, such as pepper spray or mace, in carry-on bags."

Bwaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaa. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

And don't forget to leave your nail clippers at home. Also no liquids greater than 100 mL. Also please ensure your gun is unloaded when going through the x-ray machine.

421dog 27th Oct 2014 22:28

Dude, they don't care about what we say, they're just envious of the modicum of testicular tissue we on this side of the pond are still allowed to possess.

PTT 27th Oct 2014 22:40


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 8716516)
Lone wolf 50 The U.S. Has a lot of guns in circulation - lots of gun deaths,The rest of the OECD countries have few guns in circulation - few gun deaths.

Correlation is not causation.
http://sparrowism.soc.srcf.net/home/piratesarecool4.gif

If you take it to its logical conclusion if there were no guns in our societies there would be no gun deaths.
Utopian. There are guns, so there are gun deaths. Making guns illegal does not suddenly cause all the guns to disappear so the argument is moot.

If it is not the number of guns then there must be some defect in the American character that causes you to shoot yourselves and each other in such comparatively large numbers.
False dilemma. There may be another cause.

brickhistory 27th Oct 2014 23:01

Yet again, I thank the foreign contingent for instructing us ignorant 'Muricans (redundant?) on what and how we should behave, in this case regarding firearms.

I humbly remind that same foreign contingent that your collective opinion in the matter is moot.

If WE decide WE want to change OUR Constitution, WE will do so. Given that the Second Amendment has remained untouched for 230+ years, and even given the recent hysteria (when gun violence is down compared to historical levels), no serious attempt to modify said Second Amendment has been proposed.

Why is that?

Because those that would attempt to do so would be roundly defeated at the ballot box, not to mention having no support from other states in attempting to change the Constitution's Second Amendment.

A real, European-like profile in courage for those politicians who talk much but do little regarding gun restrictions.

And you lot are 'led' by such as us.

That has got to be just a bit humbling for you...

As for me personally, the 250 rounds, including the 200 very Euro 9mms and the 50 manly American .45 acps went downrange yesterday in a very satisfying way.

PTT 27th Oct 2014 23:03


I humbly remind that same foreign contingent that your collective opinion in the matter is moot.
I humbly remind you that your opinion on what we choose to discuss is moot :ok:

brickhistory 27th Oct 2014 23:08

Absolutely agree! :ok:

421dog 27th Oct 2014 23:47


I humbly remind you that your opinion on what we choose to discuss is moot
Do please enlighten us as to the way we should treat Gov. Christie's latest transgression, or perhaps the intricacies of the latest goings-on in the Texas political stratosphere.

If you will be kind enough to tell me what to think, I promise to regurgitate the next Labour line when I'm bloviating about that which in no way concerns me...

PTT 27th Oct 2014 23:48

Non sequitur.

421dog 27th Oct 2014 23:49

Brick, you should come by and try my new 5.7

It's a lot of fun.

421dog 27th Oct 2014 23:51

PTT, At the risk of being crass, I would suggest that you think before you push to talk.

PTT 28th Oct 2014 00:01

421dog - wtf are you on about? All I said was that we can talk about what we like, an opinion with which brickhistory agreed. Your comment, which quoted that opinion, had nothing to do with said opinion. It was, therefore, a non sequitur.

mixture 28th Oct 2014 00:06


when gun violence is down compared to historical levels
I guess gun violence is down when you turn a blind eye to all those school shootings that seem to run on a calendar basis ....

This year so far you've had school shootings in Jan, Feb, March, April, May,June, September,October .... last year you had school shootings in 10 out of 12 of the calendar months..... not much change historically. Well done guys on those awesome statistics, I'm sure you are proud of them !

Meanwhile, you take the piss out of "the foreign contingent for instructing us ignorant 'Muricans "

Well, perhaps the foreign contingent have a point.... I'm so jaded by those school shootings that whenever they appear on the news I just don't feel sorry for anyone any more... I don't fall for those crocodile tears from the victim families. Yes it sounds terrible.... but what else can you do when the US seems to relish being hoisted by its own petard ??

The US is fast becoming a Wild West gun slinging country ....maybe time to think about fixing it before it gets too late ? Stick the middle finger up in the direction of the NRA and let the law makers do what they should have a long time ago...

con-pilot 28th Oct 2014 00:07

Now, now guys, you need give PTT a break. After all, since the Muslim thread was closed, thank God, he has no other thread to hold court on to show us how dumb we are (and every person that disagrees with him) and how smart he is. :p

At least I presume that PTT is a he. :ooh:

Now do please carry on PTT, as I’ve plenty of popcorn. :ok:


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