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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

OFSO 1st Jan 2015 11:21

Would you not be happier and safer in a country that does not normally have armed police on the streets?

Get pulled over here by the Mossos d'Esquadra or Guardia Civil in one of the very frequent roadside inspections* and they'll be at least four cops, one with a shotgun, and two with automatic rifles, and of course all with sidearms.

So what ?


* Except New Years Eve. Didn't see one police car on the way home. Police must have still been in the bars.....or more likely gone home. Overtime in -4º and a very strong gale ? No brainer.

bcgallacher 1st Jan 2015 12:24

Pigboat - come to the UK and see how it works. The only armed police you are likely to see are at the airport - there are armed police at airports and the diplomatic areas. Firearms are available at short notice if required from mobile units. Recently in the north of Scotland of all places there were reports and photographs in the press showing armed police involved in a street brawl -questions were asked about this and it was disclosed that the chief constable had approved firearms trained officers to carry firearms in the course of normal duty.The shit then hit the fan in no uncertain manner - the approval was swiftly withdrawn. British police officers do not wish to be armed and really do not need to be armed as the vast majority of criminals and nut cases are not armed. The result of this is that few policemen have been shot,few civilians have been shot by the police - last year the police fired 3 shots in total and killed nobody. For the most part we do not have the situations which we have seen in the USA in the last few weeks - note I say for the most part,as we have had police errors which have resulted in unnecessary deaths but few and far between.In the USA the annual death toll of police shootings is 400+ civilians shot dead and about 50 police officers - this is what results from an armed society. We have a system that works for us - it is not possible to have the same system in the US as the guns are already there in society with no realistic means of removing them. Why would you not feel safer here - figures show you are about 100 times less likely to be shot in the UK than the USA.As you say your police forces are becoming more militarised - is that really what you want? Does the sight of groups of men going into fast food outlets armed with automatic rifles to prove a point not appall you?

bcgallacher 1st Jan 2015 12:33

Obgraham - Gun controls have no effect on gun deaths? I would like your explanation for the huge difference in gun deaths between the UK and the USA.
Murder rates are falling everywhere with no rational explanation - one reason that has recently been seriously considered and has scientific backing is the removal of lead from gasoline.It would seem that it caused people to be more aggressive - I keep an open mind on this.

bcgallacher 1st Jan 2015 12:40

OFSO - Wherever you have policemen pointing guns at you there is a risk - say you reached into the glove box of your car for the papers and the officer with the shotgun decided you were reaching for a firearm? It did not happen that time but sometime? I have been under fire more than once - including by the police and I can assure you it is highly unpleasant.

obgraham 1st Jan 2015 22:14

BCG, for my point I'm not comparing UK and USA. IMHO cultural and historic differences explain the differences.

However, my point is that gun deaths in the USA are declining. Despite the fact that regulations in many areas are increasing. Ascribing this to gasoline changes is a bit of a stretch!

Change in regulation will not solve the issue of gun deaths. You seem to be immune to understanding the point.

bcgallacher 1st Jan 2015 23:53

Obgraham - you do not seem to read my posts - my recent post to pig boat States that UK gun control would not work in the USA because they guns are already in your society by the hundreds of millions.In previous posts I have stated there is nothing that can be done to significantly reduce US gun crime - it is too late,you will just have to live with a slowly reducing slaughter. The gun control laws we have and the fact that our police are not ordinarily armed have kept our gun crime to a relatively low level.Why would a criminal risk a minimum of 5 years in the slammer for carrying a gun if the police are not armed.?

PacWest 2nd Jan 2015 07:26

HEMPY
 



Personally, I'm happy for Americans to keep killing themselves and each other in massive numbers.




:mad: .... what was said in reply ....




porch monkey 2nd Jan 2015 08:56

Until your post, it was treated with the silence and contempt is deserved.

Pinky the pilot 2nd Jan 2015 09:09

PacWest; Despite the fact that only a number of posts ago (#2286 to be precise) I indicated that I was not going to participate any further in this thread, I really must now state for the record that as far as I'm concerned hempy does not speak for all Australians!

And I am a firearms owner, both long arms and 'handguns'*!

*I hate that term.:*:ugh: What firearms aren't held in the hand? I do mean Pistols and Revolvers.

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Jan 2015 09:26


Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot (Post 8806783)
I really must now state for the record that as far as I'm concerned hempy does not speak for all Australians!

And I am a firearms owner, both long arms and 'handguns'*!

But he does speak for some Australians?

TWT 2nd Jan 2015 09:57

Hempy speaks only for Hempy

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Jan 2015 10:02

How certain of that are you?

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Jan 2015 10:17

So you are not certain....

TWT 2nd Jan 2015 12:38

SFFP,I'll leave you to talk to yourself

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Jan 2015 13:29

Thought you might :p :ok:

Hempy 2nd Jan 2015 15:49

Oh the hypocritical indignation!! Let me rephrase..

"I am happy, just as you pro-gunners are, for Americans to defend their 2nd Amendment rights to 'bear arms'.

I am happy if every person in the USA feels the need to pack an AK-47 or AR-15 in order to 'defend themselves' (although I'm surprised that they put up with the designation 'assault rifles'. I guess 'defence rifles' doesn't have the same ring to it?)

I am happy for the US police to be armed like Seal Team 6.

I am happy if the Second Amendment Right means that every person has equal access to firearms regardless of problematic state legislation that is, if tested, unconstitutional."

If all these happy facts lead to America being the First World leader in gun related homicides and suicide, why aren't you all happy too??? I'm just agreeing with you! No 'bleeding heart Liberal' here!

Keep your guns!

pigboat 2nd Jan 2015 16:14

To paraphrase McDonalds, y'all want a theme song with that?


rh200 6th May 2015 06:23

A happy ending, as it should be


Officers and prosecutors are still investigating but do not expect charges to be filed against the shooter

Investigators said he intervened to help a woman screaming after Matafeo got inside her running car

Martinez said it initially looked like Matafeo was going to comply but then he lunged for the gun. The shooter fired one round, hitting the Matafeo in the chest.

We feel that this man did what he thought he had to do in order to save his life and that of the woman," Martinez said.

Police said the shooter, who had a concealed carry permit, had stopped at the store to buy food before going out for target shooting.
Guess he got the target practice in.

On an interesting note


Police released a statement from Matafeo's family that said they're sorry he had caused pain and that he was not perfect and needed help.
Says a lot about the the perps family, makes you sort of sad for their loss. Waiting for the lawyers to get involved and start throwing projected earnings from suing around.

But on darker note.


Gun-control advocates questioned whether the death was necessary. Ladd Everitt with the Washington, D.C.-based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence said the shooter could have pulled the woman to safety and reported the crime to police who were already searching for the unarmed man.
What a mob of [email protected]#k wits.

Jonno_aus 6th May 2015 06:30

Nice story.
Shame about the thousands that die that gun holders don't stop.

Usually silence on that one.

bcgallacher 6th May 2015 08:10

What a wonderfully moving story - now tell us about the other 70 or so Americans that died from gunshot wounds that day - some of whom were children.

Checkboard 6th May 2015 11:50

How to sneak chocolate into an American cinema ...


http://i.imgur.com/LUzLs8q.jpg

obgraham 6th May 2015 16:26

Now that's in very poor taste.

But really funny!

421dog 9th May 2015 17:00

if he doesn't exercise a little trigger finger discipline, there are gonna be peanuts and caramel everywhere...

ExXB 10th May 2015 17:07

Five people shot dead in Swiss town Wuerenlingen
 
As the country with the highest gun ownership rate in Europe, yet again we prove that not everyone should own a gun.

More guns, more deaths.

bcgallacher 10th May 2015 18:25

Two policemen shot dead during a traffic stop in Mississippi - the ninth and tenth shot dead in the USA this year.

con-pilot 10th May 2015 19:48


As the country with the highest gun ownership rate in Europe, yet again we prove that not everyone should own a gun.

More guns, more deaths.
Wow, that is real original, nobody ever said that before. :rolleyes:


But in all honesty, what did you expect when the current Administration has declared war on the police? It is open season on cops.

ExXB 10th May 2015 20:33

It was likely me who said it before and ive seen nothing here or anywhere else that suggests it isnt true.

con-pilot 10th May 2015 20:49


It was likely me who said it before and ive seen nothing here or anywhere else that suggests it isnt true.
Err, right, not saying that it is not true nor that you should not post such, just that perhaps you should do a little research first, as that statement is very boring and repetitive.

Just bored with it, that’s all and it would be nice to see something original for a change.

No offense meant, hope none taken.

BOING 10th May 2015 20:49


More guns, more deaths.
This has been shown many times to be a grossly incorrect claim.

If you want to say "More armed people, more deaths" you will be closer to the facts. The number of guns in a group does not correlate to the number of deaths. When are the know-alls going to get even this basic fact right?

rh200 10th May 2015 21:34


As the country with the highest gun ownership rate in Europe, yet again we prove that not everyone should own a gun.

Hmm, a rather odd statement. Has there not been gun deaths in other parts of Europe, guess not.

Not every one should own a gun. Fairly sure most people would agree with that, there definatly are some fruit loops out there, trouble is determining who they are.


More guns, more deaths.
let me fix that for you.

More guns can correlate to more gun deaths.

Note the conditional statement.:ok:

Checkboard 11th May 2015 16:07


Not every one should own a gun. Fairly sure most people would agree with that, there definatly are some fruit loops out there, trouble is determining who they are.
And as that trouble exists, and until the dilemma of sorting the wheat from the chaff is solved, then the safe option for society is ...

Lonewolf_50 11th May 2015 16:28


Originally Posted by Checkboard (Post 8973171)
And as that trouble exists, and until the dilemma of sorting the wheat from the chaff is solved, then the safe option for society is ...

Suggest you read up on a thing called freedom, and Ben Franklin's warning.

rh200 11th May 2015 22:02


And as that trouble exists, and until the dilemma of sorting the wheat from the chaff is solved, then the safe option for society is ...
I'm guessing your implying that the majority should be punished or suffer due to the minority?

That same principle could be applied to lots of things.

Lonewolf_50 11th May 2015 22:11

George Zimmerman Injured in Shooting Incident in Florida: Police - NBC News

That fellow Zimmerman seems to have a penchant for attracting trouble. Some might call this karma ... but one only knows what one reads in the papers and thus will be cautious.

Earl 13th May 2015 05:10

The 2 policeman shot was done by convicted felons that are not allowed under law to own guns anyway.
Hattiesburg Mayor: Isn?t It Sad How Concealed Carry Laws Killed Those 2 Cops? ? Downtrend
Every single one of these police shootings was dealing with a convicted felon!
Yes I support the police, happy the felon died, clean up the society more, good job and tax money well spent, get more of them.

Earl 13th May 2015 05:16

I dont care what color your skin is.
If police tell you to stop and freeze you better do so.
If you don't and pose a threat then bang bang, only your mama will miss you the rest of society wont.
The reactions of burning and looting, well see where that comes from, not educated society.

bcgallacher 13th May 2015 08:59

Lone wolf 50 - D o you really think that Ben Franklin envisaged the situation that the U.S. finds itself in ? A country where the police force is so afraid of its citizens that it shoots about 400 per year? Where its citizens shoot about 50 police officers per year? This is the oddest definition of freedom that I have ever encountered. No other developed country even approaches these figures - if freedom is defined as the ability to shoot each other in large quantities the U.S. Is certainly free.

Hempy 13th May 2015 09:26

bcgallatcher, it's all so that the 'patriots' (depending on your definition) can uphold their rights as free men if and when the democratically elected government decides to 'go rogue' and try and restrain said freedoms. Unlikely in 2015, but you never know :rolleyes:

I'm not sure Franklin imagined that said democratically elected government would have their hands on cruise missiles, B1 bombers and attack helicopters (etc) when he came up with that, but 'freedom is freedom', don't you know.

You have the right to bear arms against people who have the right to bear arms against you. Darwin would have had a field day..

rh200 13th May 2015 12:10


citizens that it shoots about 400 per year? Where its citizens shoot about 50 police officers per year?
Or you could interpret it as social issues, resulting from left wing policys results in a degrading social structure. This leading to the police being so constantly under attack by human garbage, that inevitably results in them shooting 400 people per year.

Maybe franklin was smart after all, and envisaged the need for the population to have the ability to defend themselves after all.

PukinDog 13th May 2015 15:42


Hempy
You have the right to bear arms against people who have the right to bear arms against you. Darwin would have had a field day..
If you're referring to Charles Darwin he could have tried to have your imagined "field day" with regards to what Ben Franklin thought by chatting with his own grandfather. Erasmus Darwin, who along with being an eminent botanist, natural philosopher, thinker, physician and prolific writer, was a good friend of Benjamin Franklin.

Or little Charles could have asked his other grandfather, Josiah Wedgwood, about what Ben thought. Josiah Wedgwood was also a good friend of Benjamin Franklin, and they shared leading roles in their respective Abolitionist movements in America and England. They actively corresponded and shared ideas.

Or little Charles could have asked his own father about Benjamin, who had also met and befriended Franklin as he was a family friend on both maternal and paternal sides. Both families liked him, and held great respect for his ideas and wit.

In large part these friendships between Franklin, Darwin, Wedgwood and others were underpinned by shared philosophies, and there are plenty of essays, letters, and pamphlets produced by these and other members of the various Enlightenment movements in Continental Europe, England, and America that deal with political thought. These philosophies manifested themselves into Rebellion in the American colonies and the Abolitionist movement on both sides of the ocean, among other things. You could actually study the aforementioned essays, letters, and pamphlets if you wanted to learn what it as all about. They didn't disappear into the mists of time.

I say this because the fact that you think Charles Darwin would have a "field day" with Benjamin Franklin speaks volumes about what you (don't obviously) know about the people, their associations, or philosophy. No doubt you didn't have any idea that both Darwin's grandfathers and father were contemporaries and friends of Franklin, sharing many of the same principles and operated at a level you haven't given 2 minutes to try and learn. Charles having a "field day" with Ben's thinking? Not a chance, nor would he probably want to try. What we can be certain of is that Charles, just through his own family and time, knew more about Franklin than you do since he would have known the thinking and philosophy that gave credence to how Ben, both his grandfathers, and their contemporaries thought.

But then again, the closest historical figure in Oz I've heard referred to as a great "Aussie patriot" is Ned Kelly, who's greatest contribution to "thinking" was rigging-up some pots and pans to wear to try and stop bullets. Cute, mildly clever, but not exactly something or someone for the Ages. And because beer, footy, and chirpy internet bellyaching about "what's wrong with America" doesn't represent an advancement of political thought that rises above folk hero-worshiping a 3rd rate, Jesse James wannabe, you're still waiting for someone, anyone, who'd even be worthy enough to empty Ben's chamberpot at a Parisian whorehouse let alone climb into the ring as his equal.


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