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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

421dog 8th Nov 2014 19:56


The reasons there are no rivers in a desert is because there is no rain, in Oregon we have the massive Columbia River because it rains a lot in the Northwest. Dohh !!! We do not have to pay a bunch of researchers to understand this and make the connection.
The presence of the Columbia river in Oregon has essentially nothing to do with the fact that it rains a lot in the Northwest. It starts in a big valley in the Rockies, is fed almost exclusively by snowmelt, and actually spends most of its length running through something that used to be a desert (until the river was dammed and it was used for irrigation)

Lord Spandex Masher 8th Nov 2014 20:13


Originally Posted by con-pilot (Post 8733674)
I win, you lose.

Win what...?

BOING 8th Nov 2014 20:18


The presence of the Columbia river in Oregon has essentially nothing to do with the fact that it rains a lot in the Northwest. It starts in a big valley in the Rockies, is fed almost exclusively by snowmelt, and actually spends most of its length running through something that used to be a desert (until the river was dammed and it was used for irrigation)
What a load of twaddle. The Columbia River starts in Canada and then by a somewhat circuitous route joins the Pacific Ocean near Astoria, Oregon. The Columbia River basin is primarily in British Columbia, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and a smallish piece of Montana. All of these States are most definitely in the Northwestern group. In its topography the BC area is similar to the US Northwest but regardless, the BC length of the Columbia, because it is the "headwaters" of the river adds relatively little to its flow. The fact that part of the river flows through a desert region has nothing to do with the matter and the last time I checked there was a close connection between snow and rain dependent on temperature and hence somewhat on altitude. Most aviators have noticed this connection.

.

obgraham 8th Nov 2014 20:21


Columbia river
Well, Columbia River is rolling on by in view of my window. No significant rain in this "shrub-steppe-desert" here in months.
Of course it does rain/snow up in BC where the source is. Very little water added to the Columbia as it passes through WA and OR, except here at the confluence, Snake and Yakima.

421dog 8th Nov 2014 20:39

West of the cascades is wet, but not a lot to add to the flow.

con-pilot 8th Nov 2014 20:46


Well, Columbia River is rolling on by in view of my window
Okay, now I'm jealous. :{

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 21:26


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8733522)
MANDATORY...

Consider this scenario:

Home invasion.
Perps hold a gun to the head of your beloved one. Or a knife.
Demand you open your gun safe so they can use the guns in the upcoming bank robbery.

You comply. You "allowed".

MANDATORY???

Absofeckinlutely, you live in an area where ahome break in is likely, you buy a gun to counter the home break in scenario then lock it away, go to jail for being feckin stupid!

What is it with you people you want guns cos it's not safe to live at home without a gun and then you lock them away so the bad guys can get in.........

Come on chap, what's it going to be......:=

galaxy flyer 8th Nov 2014 21:30

SFFP,

You're the one wanting them locked up. Mine are locked, I don't, on MY town feel a need to have one loaded and ready. One is easily accessed, however, but locked.

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 21:31


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8733680)
I did say "practical" ideas.



Here is the list of your suggestions, I've numbered them for reference.



#1 we considered. You apparently did not realize that "time of purchase" training was impractical because of lack of facilities and trained personnel. I did offer alternatives which were not responded to.

#2 As I pointed out a measure of this security is already in place but "fit for purpose" needs to be defined. What would it be, a commercial safe, a locked draw? How would you reconcile this with the idea that folks need the gun at short notice in event of an emergency? Should this be a Federal or State requirement?

#3 How will you arrange this? A qualified police officer knocks on your door and says "Sorry, you are not going to work today, we are going to the range. I will come with you to see how your firearm is secured and then at the range we will check your correct usage". So, the officer signs off on the test and a week later the gun owner shoots his wife, is the police department liable? If not what was the check worth, what was its point?

#4 Seems like a repeat of #2.

#5 If we have #5 and #2 why do we need #3?

#6 What criteria would you use? Who decides and who test? Once again, what about professional liability?

Your new suggestion I tend to agree with strongly but I do not see that a blanket punishment would work, the punishment should fit the crime. I mean, could you blame a parent who normally keeps a gun securely locked in a safe if the child set up a hidden camera to observe the combination being entered? The little perishers are perfectly capable of doing this.


.

Is that for real :eek:

BOING 8th Nov 2014 21:33

I also see the ships on the Columbia about 2 miles away. In Oregon the Columbia is fed by the John Day, Deschutes, Hood and Willamette Rivers and from Washington by the Cowlitz (and others from both states). Most certainly rain fed and if you want to be picky snow as in frozen rain.

And here we go on another distraction. How about a return to the methods of dealing with gun violence in the US? If you want to talk geography and kitchen knives start another thread.

Since no one has challenged my contentions (other than to start divergent posts) I claim victory by default.

Does anybody fundamentally disagree with my numbered contentions above or can we start discussing how to control US gun violence based on facts rather than slewed statistics?
Pity we can't use duelling rules in these posts, we might get more relevant answers when they are requested.


The first rule of dueling was that a challenge to duel between two gentleman could not generally be refused without the loss of face and honor. If a gentleman invited a man to duel and he refused, he might place a notice in the paper denouncing the man as a poltroon for refusing to give satisfaction in the dispute.
.

.

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 21:34


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 8733802)
SFFP,

You're the one wanting them locked up. Mine are locked, I don't, on MY town feel a need to have one loaded and ready. One is easily accessed, however, but locked.

Point 1. I don't want them locked up as I live in UK, surely that's something you US folk should want?

Point 2. Imagine if everyone was as careful as you, in fact imagine if everyone BY LAW had to be as careful as you........

BOING 8th Nov 2014 21:41

Seldom,


Is that for real
Of course it is, welcome to the 21st Century. The boys put hidden cameras in the girls changing rooms so I do not see why they would not pull the same tricks at home. Ever heard of videotaping ATM machines to find people's PIN numbers.

One example.


Student suspended after camera found in girl's locker room at Three Oaks school
February 26, 2012|WSBT-TV Report

Share on emailShare on printShare on redditMore Sharing Services

Monday will be the first day back at school for students at River Valley Middle & High School in Three Oaks since a video camera was found rolling in the girl's locker room.

Cyndi Ursprung, the school's assistant principal, tells us that the camera was found Friday. It only rolled for less than a class period and only caught blurry video of the floor.

It was found by three girls. A male student at the school has been suspended.

Ursprung says the student confessed to police, who say they will release more information tomorrow.

The student is described as one who had no previous history of discipline problems.

The school serves kids in 6th through 12th grades.

Tomorrow school administrators will meet to re-evaluate locker room security and the school board is also set to meet tomorrow night. It will ultimately be up to the board to decide the fate of the suspended student.
FIND MORE STORIES ABOUT
Now, how about your comments on my comments - I wait entranced.

.

con-pilot 8th Nov 2014 21:43


And here we go on another distraction.
No problem, I accomplished my goal.

I just made a comment about the Columbia River, I used to take a 727 up to that part of the country about once a week. I love the way that part of the country looks.

Please carry on, you're doing a good job and I'll go back to my popcorn. :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 21:54


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8733827)
Seldom,



Of course it is, welcome to the 21st Century. The boys put hidden cameras in the girls changing rooms so I do not see why they would not pull the same tricks at home. Ever heard of videotaping ATM machines to find people's PIN numbers.

One example.



Now, how about your comments on my comments - I wait entranced.

.

I restate, are you for real?

That's your reason why those who through their own carelessness and stupidity allow their weapons to be used for bad deeds should be excused?

Step back from your keyboard and ponder what you are saying........

BOING 8th Nov 2014 22:03

Distraction warning, sound of siren.

The 27, the last but one of the real jets. Loved it, once you got it detached from the ground it was a dream.

When I was new I flew it as flight engineer with a, let us say, slightly eccentric captain and we were late for a layover on night, we were moving. Captain is complaining about the amount of rudder trim required and asked me to write it up. I got his approval for the proposed wording of course "Excessive rudder trim. Aircraft requires one and a half graduations of rudder trim at 400 knots in the climb". Slight silence and then "Well, perhaps we don't need a write-up".:)

.

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 22:06


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8733852)
Distraction warning, sound of siren.

The 27, the last but one of the real jets. Loved it, once you got it detached from the ground it was a dream.

When I was new I flew it as flight engineer with a, let us say, slightly eccentric captain and we were late for a layover on night, we were moving. Captain is complaining about the amount of rudder trim required and asked me to write it up. I got his approval for the proposed wording of course "Excessive rudder trim. Aircraft requires one and a half graduations of rudder trim at 400 knots in the climb". Slight silence and then "Well, perhaps we don't need a write-up".:)

.

Great story............

galaxy flyer 8th Nov 2014 22:13


Point 2. Imagine if everyone was as careful as you, in fact imagine if everyone BY LAW had to be as careful as you........
I reject the idea that people are stupid and require a nanny to watch over them and protect themselves from themselves. I shot with a wide variety of people, highly educated and bare HS diploma holders, they do menial jobs to practice medicine or law. All of them promote safe gun handling, many legally carry concealed, and all have children who do the same. Setting and maintaining high standards isn't a function of law; it's a function of being professional and respectful of society.

To answer BCG, earlier, of course the present state of the issue in the US is acceptable, it's accepted, QED. It's not acceptable to me for children to have have accidents or kill their siblings, but what exactly can be added to the law that will stop those accidents. Usually, the DA doesn't prosecute the parents, they already suffered. Heck, they put the basketball player for shooting himself in a pub with an illegal gun. Some role model that felon, oops I meant sports figure (much the same thing) he is. You seem to think it's the Wild West in the US; it's not. Murders, accidents, self-defense shootings are thoroughly investigated and prosecuted where found necessary. Act stupid for 5 minutes at my clubs (6) will get you shown the exit.

GF

galaxy flyer 8th Nov 2014 22:16

BOING,

I flew one over Cohasset on a visual to 33 at KBOS, 390 KIAS, boards trying to extend at 3am. Often wondered what it sounded like on the ground 3,000 feet below and BOS tower didn't seem to care about the speed. EAL had its eccentrics, too.

GF

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 22:19


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 8733864)
I reject the idea that people are stupid and require a nanny to watch over them and protect themselves from themselves. I shot with a wide variety of people, highly educated and bare HS diploma holders, they do menial jobs to practice medicine or law. All of them promote safe gun handling, many legally carry concealed, and all have children who do the same. Setting and maintaining high standards isn't a function of law; it's a function of being professional and respectful of society.

Do you reckon every US legal gun owner signs up to that?

421dog 8th Nov 2014 22:28

I like to take my some of my guns out to central Washington and shoot the pheasant and chukkar that live on the irrigated desert.

BOING 8th Nov 2014 22:32

Seldom,
I do not need to step back. You are into your word twisting mode again. I originally said that I had doubts about the wisdom of a blanket, flat rate, punishment for all possible offenses in the class. This is because there will inevitably be degrees of culpability. I suggested one fairly extreme example and you, in your usual bull-headed way, grabbed onto this as typical. You really must develop a sense of balance.

Now, get on with the job of sorting out US gun violence instead of hyperventilating about an accessory example.

You can't do this can you? You are piling distraction on top of distraction because you can't answer your own challenge. You blew it, you complained about the situation in the US, you denigrated the country because it has difficulty in dealing with the problem but all you can do from your Ivory Tower when you are given the opportunity to speak your wisdom is pass wind.

Come on, let's have some facts here. It really is simple. You think the US has an appalling gun violence problem and you are quite happy to exaggerate it, crow about it, call people dumb because they can't find an answer to it after years of trying but in the end all you can do is nit-pick everyone's comments rather than coming up with one workable, positive, solution. Notice, positive, workable solution, not pie-in-the-sky fantasies, something that might actually work.

Certainly you are allowed to comment on US gun violence but what you are really doing is acting like the little yappy dog at the cattle round up that imagines the cows are moving because of his noise when really it is only an annoyance.

Stop yapping, start growling and have some effect.

.

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 22:38


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8733878)
Seldom,
I do not need to step back. You are into your word twisting mode again. I originally said that I had doubts about the wisdom of a blanket, flat rate, punishment for all possible offenses in the class. This is because there will inevitably be degrees of culpability. I suggested one fairly extreme example and you, in your usual bull-headed way, grabbed onto this as typical. You really must develop a sense of balance.

Now, get on with the job of sorting out US gun violence instead of hyperventilating about an accessory example.

You can't do this can you? You are piling distraction on top of distraction because you can't answer your own challenge. You blew it, you complained about the situation in the US, you denigrated the country because it has difficulty in dealing with the problem but all you can do from your Ivory Tower when you are given the opportunity to speak your wisdom is pass wind.

Come on, let's have some facts here. It really is simple. You think the US has an appalling gun violence problem and you are quite happy to exaggerate it, crow about it, call people dumb because they can't find an answer to it after years of trying but in the end all you can do is nit-pick everyone's comments rather than coming up with one workable, positive, solution. Notice, positive, workable solution, not pie-in-the-sky fantasies, something that might actually work.

Certainly you are allowed to comment on US gun violence but what you are really doing is acting like the little yappy dog at the cattle round up that imagines the cows are moving because of his noise when really it is only an annoyance.

Stop yapping, start growling and have some effect.

.

Wow :eek:

Clearly my ideas are crap so what do you think you should do......

Guy or Gal screws up, what should the punishment be?

obgraham 8th Nov 2014 23:19

Boing, we're on the same side here. (Well, except for the way you Westsiders tend to vote!)

Problem is, you keep thinking they'll come up with some original input here. My view is that discussion of the River and the 727 is about as relevant as most of the other twaddle that gets posted here, nearly 1400 posts into yet another gun thread.

BOING 8th Nov 2014 23:22

Seldom
I don't know if your ideas are bad because we have never tried to develop them past the "fantasy" stage. You tried some suggestions, now you have to listen to the US comments on whether those ideas have been tried before and what happened to them. If they have been tried and have failed before did they have value and how can they be re-packaged to gain acceptance.

This problem will not be solved by the people who have been staring at it for 25 years. Maybe, perhaps maybe, a new suggestion from someone who is standing at a distance may provide the clue the US needs. A sort of facilitator but it will not happen with a preacher.

There is no penalty (other than what the authorities provide) for a non-malicious, non-stupid screw-up.

OB
Where there is life there is hope.
The contributors are not dumb, the difficulty is to encourage them, one way or another, into a cooperative mode instead of this short-sighted "we are smarter than you because more of your people die by guns".
How's the weather in your area. We have fortunately got a great day because this is our November 5th bonfire, Guy Fawkes day. Relatives coming around for a big bonfire and big meal. Never been quite sure if the folks in UK celebrated bonfire date because the King was saved or because, in a subtle way, they celebrated Guy Fawkes for trying and this is his memorial.

.

galaxy flyer 8th Nov 2014 23:33


Do you reckon every US legal gun owner signs up to that?
SFFP,

That's a better argument for enforced sterilization than useless government controls. If government is going to granted powers you propose (no notice home raids, for one); I'd sooner see something effective, like licensing pregnancy (and voting) to property holding, tax paying, well referenced citizens.

Cont to think of it, that's a good idea!

GF

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 23:41


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8733921)

There is no penalty (other than what the authorities provide) for a non-malicious, non-stupid screw-up.

Picture a car crash, no one hurt just a fender bender.....

Someone is to blame, the insurance folk work out who that is and someone gets 'punished' by increased premiums........

Life is no different so why when someone does 'stooooopid with a gun' should they be treated any differently than 'stooooopid with a car'?

obgraham 8th Nov 2014 23:41

Boing, encouraged by His Governorship, we've been in a "No-burn" condition for months now. Can't burn leaves, cooking off some tumbleweeds requires all sorts of nanny-state precautions. We're lucky we can still grill some brats.

But the grass is still green, I'm still picking tomatoes in the garden, and most folks hereabouts have guns, and haven't shot off any fingers lately.

Seldomfitforpurpose 8th Nov 2014 23:50


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 8733929)
SFFP,

That's a better argument for enforced sterilization than useless government controls. If government is going to granted powers you propose (no notice home raids, for one); I'd sooner see something effective, like licensing pregnancy (and voting) to property holding, tax paying, well referenced citizens.

Cont to think of it, that's a good idea!

GF

That's a pretty seriously fecked up out look on life.......

galaxy flyer 9th Nov 2014 00:26

I disagree, ex post facto abortion is seriously fecked up. Kid turns 18 and is still a mess--whack him. That's fecked up.

Anyway, what's your problem? The problem with guns is NOT the inanimate object, it's the nut who has one on in his hands. Far easier to work on the animate person than the inanimate object. And what's better than eliminating the nut prior to any bad acts being committed? Do you want extremely late term abortion aka execution.

In any case, thanks for your discerning taste--I've worked hard on having a fecked attitude. Loads of people have given all the proof I needed, everyday.

GF

BenThere 9th Nov 2014 00:44


like licensing pregnancy (and voting) to property holding, tax paying, well referenced citizens.
Limiting the vote to taxpayers would result in immense increase in economic activity, general standard of living, and restoration of our moribund economies.

I think there are still too many lefties among us to let it happen, though. The recent US elections spark hope.

galaxy flyer 9th Nov 2014 00:51

Ben There,

Well, it would eliminate all the "negative work" caused by the non-productive amongst us. Just to be fair, the non-productive are of equal opportunity regardless of race, creed or national origin. Same for the productive, by the way.

The leftie, liberal agenda is all about subsidizing failure and punishing success. See how that's worked out in Detroit?

GF

Ethel the Aardvark 9th Nov 2014 09:06

a work colleague of mine when I worked in Ft Lauderdale used to tell me how he loved to play with his guns and they had to be loaded for maximum enjoyment.
What is it about your guns that cause so much miss directed passion.
i own a couple of firearms for feral fox removal and they don't in the slightest cause me any arousal. What am I doing wrong?

bcgallacher 9th Nov 2014 09:29

Aardvark - you are doing it absolutely right,it is the normal ones that do not regard guns as penis extensions.

bcgallacher 9th Nov 2014 09:31

By the way - Snap On 72 tooth ratchets do it for me!

Ethel the Aardvark 9th Nov 2014 09:48

Can't beat a snap on screwdriver, oooh yeah!

rh200 9th Nov 2014 11:18


Snap On 72 tooth ratchets do it for me!
They do a 72? damm i want want one, wonder how it goes with a pipe on the end of it.:p

PTT 9th Nov 2014 12:16


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 8733991)
The leftie, liberal agenda is all about subsidizing failure and punishing success.

Given that "success" as defined in the capitalist world is as much about lucky breaks as it is about hard work I don't really see an issue with that. Offering a safety net for those who try hard but do not succeed (for whatever reason) is one thing; giving money to the lazy is another and I don't think many people, regardless of political stripe, would condone the latter.

Back on topic, BOING appears to have no objections to my suggestions. I see there is a fundamental difference in outlook between our two nations, and see how this will lead to people wanting firearms as an individual issue rather than preventing their proliferation as a societal one: you've no faith in your government or your fellow man (although there will doubtless be claims otherwise caveated with the denial that criminals are human) and only trust yourself and those very like you, which leads to a very individualistic outlook.
The US is different to the rest of the developed world in many ways, and not all of them good (imho). There is more racial tension, more intergenerational poverty in ghettos and in some rural areas, more a culture of mistrusting government, more a culture of violence than in the other OECD countries (source). One of the least "good" of these, again imho, is the apparent lack of empathy for others in society which such an outlook brings, and the subsequent "screw them" attitude to those who do not "succeed" (by whatever subjective measure) or do not live by your individual standards, and the inability to compromise on anything which might impinge on your lifestyle even if it will save many lives. It's that lack of empathy which leads to objections to even the simplest concepts such as training requirements for fear that they will lead to something worse. Those who will not compromise on a solution (from both sides) are part of the problem: they are complicit in those deaths due to their willful obstruction of any action which might help prevent them.

Dushan 9th Nov 2014 12:31


Originally Posted by rh200 (Post 8734379)
They do a 72? damm i want want one, wonder how it goes with a pipe on the end of it.:p

I am sure it does fine, but my favorite is MAC.

I also have a few 40-year old Craftsman which have seen a lot of action, including the pipe treatment. Still working like new. I especially like the Carftsman sockets in 3/8, they have extremely thin sides and fit in tight places.

The best screwdrivers are Wiha, pliers are Knipex.

Dushan 9th Nov 2014 12:57


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8734460)
Given that "success" as defined in the capitalist world is as much about lucky breaks as it is about hard work I don't really see an issue with that. Offering a safety net for those who try hard but do not succeed (for whatever reason) is one thing; giving money to the lazy is another and I don't think many people, regardless of political stripe, would condone the latter.

You shoul re think your statement in view of what the Demmocrats have done, over a period of 50 years, in places like Detroit. Look up "Great Society and LBJ". When you institutionalize the giving part, the recepients see it as a right not a gesture of good will.




Back on topic, BOING appears to have no objections to my suggestions. I see there is a fundamental difference in outlook between our two nations, and see how this will lead to people wanting firearms as an individual issue rather than preventing their proliferation as a societal one: you've no faith in your government or your fellow man (although there will doubtless be claims otherwise caveated with the denial that criminals are human) and only trust yourself and those very like you, which leads to a very individualistic outlook.
Yes, you are starting to understand.



The US is different to the rest of the developed world in many ways, and not all of them good (imho). There is more racial tension, more intergenerational poverty in ghettos and in some rural areas, more a culture of mistrusting government, more a culture of violence than in the other OECD countries (source). One of the least "good" of these, again imho, is the apparent lack of empathy for others in society which such an outlook brings, and the subsequent "screw them" attitude to those who do not "succeed" (by whatever subjective measure) or do not live by your individual standards, and the inability to compromise on anything which might impinge on your lifestyle even if it will save many lives. It's that lack of empathy which leads to objections to even the simplest concepts such as training requirements for fear that they will lead to something worse. Those who will not compromise on a solution (from both sides) are part of the problem: they are complicit in those deaths due to their willful obstruction of any action which might help prevent them.
This has been discussed many times here, but I want to remind you that Americans are, by far, the largest per capita charity givers in the world. You are right that Americans don't trust the government to do anything so they do it themselves. The rest of the world lets the government do it with their tax dollars. Who is more emphatetic?

Whether it is defense of your loved ones or helping the poor you turn to the government and offer your hard earned cash isolating yourselves from the responsibility. Who is more emphatetic?

747 jock 9th Nov 2014 13:29


You think the US has an appalling gun violence problem and you are quite happy to exaggerate it
Between 2005 and 2010, an annual average of over 232,000 firearms stolen during home burglaries.

Approximately 65% of all murders in the USA and carried out with guns.

Roughly 10,000 killed by guns each year.


With figures such as those Boing, (and no, they have nut been exaggerated, in fact I have rounded the numbers down ) don't you think that the US has an appalling gun violence problem or do you find those figures acceptable?


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