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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

galaxy flyer 5th Nov 2014 17:32

PTT,

So, your solution is to invite said intruder to please leave soonest or I'll have to say nasty words and call for a bobby?

GF

Lonewolf_50 5th Nov 2014 17:34


Originally Posted by mixture (Post 8729418)
Given that the USA is the only "western" country that still imposes the death-penalty, I suspect you're on your own there ..... :cool: In many respects, life in jail is a harsher penalty than simply killing a human being.

And a lot more expensive to the taxpayer.

The feeling among the taxpayers vis a vis incarceration, punishment, and rehabilitation are mixed ... so that cost is for the moment the cost of doing business.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 19:26

brickhistory - again, not what I said. All I said was that his life has value. Self defence can be a sound reason to kill someone, but only if there were no other alternative and the minimum force required to defend oneself was used.

Dushan - I was asking the question, actually, because it didn't seem reasonable to me but it seemed under Toadstool's suggestion that this was an implication. Why would you not be responsible for secure storage? Personally I don't think that you should be liable for crimes carried out using guns stolen from you so long as they were reported as such beforehand. Again, I don't know how this would be viable without registration.

galaxy flyer - where did I say that? Are you asking me what I would do if my current abode was "visited" in the night?

brickhistory 5th Nov 2014 19:31


but only if there were no other alternative and the minimum force required to defend oneself was used.
Bump in the night, intruder inside your home, and you want a fair-ish fight?

Must be cultural...

BenThere 5th Nov 2014 19:36


All I said was that his life has value.
It's a key point.

The person who enters the home of another, unannounced, uninvited, by surprise, can only be assessed as being of hostile intent.

By the willingness to attempt the intrusion, he has assigned his life a negative value. It is better to dispatch him than allow him to continue his trade, again and again.

Seldomfitforpurpose 5th Nov 2014 19:42


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8729568)
Bump in the night, intruder inside your home, and you want a fair-ish fight?

Must be cultural...


Absolutely, of course may be a quick Oi, what are you doing might have prevented


Father Shoots Masked Man Son


Dad Shoots Daughter After Mistaking Her For Burglar In Virginia


still better safe than sorry eh :ok:

PTT 5th Nov 2014 19:52


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8729568)
Bump in the night, intruder inside your home, and you want a fair-ish fight?

Must be cultural...

Fair? No. I want to win. But it is entirely possible to win without killing.

BenThere

By the willingness to attempt the intrusion, he has assigned his life a negative value.
To you, perhaps. I don't think life is as black and white as that, and I don't think you can quite so easily pigeonhole people into "good" and "bad". That said, I do find myself wondering what some here would think is the difference between the two.
When I was your age they would say we can become cops, or criminals. Today, what I'm saying to you is this: when you're facing a loaded gun, what's the difference? - Frank Costello, The Departed (2006)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Hi...utu.be&t=1m08s

BenThere 5th Nov 2014 20:05


I don't think you can quite so easily pigeonhole people into "good" and "bad"
If he breaks into my house - "bad".

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 20:26


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8729561)
Dushan - I was asking the question, actually, because it didn't seem reasonable to me but it seemed under Toadstool's suggestion that this was an implication. Why would you not be responsible for secure storage? Personally I don't think that you should be liable for crimes carried out using guns stolen from you so long as they were reported as such beforehand. Again, I don't know how this would be viable without registration.

We have an obligation to keep our guns safe, meaning that no accidental access by untrained is easy. That is a much lower bar than making them "secure", which implies that they are hard or impossible to steal.

What is "secure", and against what? There was a case where a man had a very heavy "proper" gun safe bolted to the floor in his 15th floor apartment. This was not some $300 sheet metal case from Harbor Freight. He went away on vacation. The burglars lowered themselves from the 16th floor onto his balcony, brought in acetylene torch, and spent a week cutting into the safe. They got his guns.

Are you telling me that he is somehow responsible if those guns were used in a crime?

And no, registration is not necessary. If the cops find a gun next to a body, it matters not who once bought it or used it prior to it being used in this crime. The only reason you would want to know that is to mess with the original owner, who was victimized by theft, and now would be facing "un-secure" charges.

obgraham 5th Nov 2014 21:14

Guys, really. PTT will pick at your words, deny what he ever stated before, cherry pick from Wiki -- wear you down till you want to scream "uncle"

It's like picking at a scab over and over again.

The only thing he's added in these interminable discussions is that he finally realizes that, yes, there is a "cultural divide". Which is what everyone's been trying to explain since the beginning.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 21:43

BenThere - chap a bit drunk after a fancy dress party has forgotten his keys and breaks into what he thinks is the right house just trying to get to bed. Bad?
That possibility alone, slim as it might be, is what would make me use that "judgement" thing I mentioned even if I did have a gun.

Dushan

Are you telling me that he is somehow responsible if those guns were used in a crime?
No, I'm saying I don't think he should be. I stated that quite clearly in the bit you quoted:
Personally I don't think that you should be liable for crimes carried out using guns stolen from you so long as they were reported as such beforehand.
So long as the gun is reported as stolen then it should not be your responsibility. This, however, is what Toadstool said:

This would also entail those, who by their own negligence/lack of training/lack of security, are responsible for the death of others.
So I questioned it.

obgraham - ad hominem. The point about the cultural divide is that it is about the value placed on human life: it's really fundamental. I have relatives in the US who do not appear to think the way you chaps do so it has come as a surprise that your attitude on the matter is quite so contrasting.

Doodlebug 5th Nov 2014 21:47

''Brits and Euros have given up on responsible society which is based on self-government; meaning expecting people to behave civilly. You'd rather make rules and laws based on the lowest level of citizenship--the worst idiots, the insane, the outright evil defines your society., it's laws, it's moral code. I'd rather aim for people being their best and separating the evil, the stupid and insane out of society.''

Succinctly put, Mr Galaxy Flyer.

brickhistory 5th Nov 2014 21:47

"While my Springfields, Smith & Wessons, and Walthers gently weep..."


Bumping of the gums not resulting in anything.


Liberal standard...

Seldomfitforpurpose 5th Nov 2014 21:54


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8729773)
I have relatives in the US who do not appear to think the way you chaps do so it has come as a surprise that your attitude on the matter is quite so contrasting.

In recent threads the point was made that around 50% of US households are gun free so it goes without saying that not everyone Stateside follows the same code of conduct as is being suggested here.

PTT 5th Nov 2014 22:04

SFFP - absolutely. I was just surprised at the scale of the difference. I am assuming that those here are not at the very far right end of the population, to be fair, and sit within the main body (80% or so) of the population.

BenThere 5th Nov 2014 22:08


not everyone Stateside follows the same code of conduct as is being suggested here
No, they don't. But they just won the election, overwhelmingly. NRA went virtually undefeated.

Seldomfitforpurpose 5th Nov 2014 22:16

PTT,

The thing for me is that if around half the homes in the US are gun free that would imply that those folk feel safe enough to go about their daily lives without requiring a weapon to get through the day or night. That they do it in their millions every day of every week of every year would suggest they are right.

If, as is always the case in these threads we ask for evidence of the regular 'putting down of the bad guy by the good guy' stories then inevitably there nowt but several tumbleweed moments.

Not sure who has got it right but if millions live their lives each day quite happily gun free and the good guys getting the bad guys is as rare as hens teeth possibly all this 'we need our guns' hype is just that, hype :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose 5th Nov 2014 22:17


Originally Posted by BenThere (Post 8729793)
No, they don't. But they just won the election, overwhelmingly. NRA went virtually undefeated.

Ben,

I suspect gun ownership transcends party politics..........

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 22:51


Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose (Post 8729800)
If, as is always the case in these threads we ask for evidence of the regular 'putting down of the bad guy by the good guy' stories then inevitably there nowt but several tumbleweed moments.


If I understand correctly, you are claiming that when asked for proof that armed citizens prevent crime, there is none provided. My monthly NRA magazine has a "Armed Citizen" section illustrating such events. I am sure many more are happening but only a few are chosen.

NRA Publications and Magazines

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 23:24

That isn't proof that the outcome was a result of having a firearm.

In some cases a crime had already been committed despite the presence of a firearm.

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 23:29

Seriously? A dead assailant, shot by the homeowner is not proof that the owner had a gun?

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 23:33

You weren't trying to prove the homeowner had a gun.

Dushan 5th Nov 2014 23:45

I am not trying to prove anything. I was asking what you meant by those twisted words, and offered my interpretation with an example. You then, said there is no proof a gun was involved.

Seems to me it was.

Lord Spandex Masher 5th Nov 2014 23:51

If you're not trying to prove anything why did you provide the link?

Where did I say there is no proof a gun was involved?

Dushan 6th Nov 2014 00:10

Here:......


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8729873)
That isn't proof that the outcome was a result of having a firearm.


Lord Spandex Masher 6th Nov 2014 00:16

Errrrr, nope! Read what you've quoted carefully. Does it say "there is no proof a gun was involved"?

And why the link?

West Coast 6th Nov 2014 00:30

SFFP


In recent threads the point was made that around 50% of US households are gun free so it goes without saying that not everyone Stateside follows the same code of conduct as is being suggested here.
Not sure if its you, but one of you huggies keeps pushing this as some sort of conclusion of something.

Why? It doesn't prove squat other than you like to connect dots that shouldn't necessarily be connected.

I've asked this question before, but not received an answer. Be the first.

con-pilot 6th Nov 2014 00:40


In recent threads the point was made that around 50% of US households are gun free
Or conversely, around 50% of US households claims that they are gun free.

As far as anyone knows, officially or by a poll, my house is gun free and I'm going to keep it that way.

Dushan 6th Nov 2014 00:42


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8729920)
Errrrr, nope! Read what you've quoted carefully. Does it say "there is no proof a gun was involved"?

And why the link?

Enough! You're tiring.

Dushan 6th Nov 2014 00:43


Originally Posted by con-pilot (Post 8729937)
Or conversely, around 50% of US households claims that they are gun free.

As far as anyone knows, officially or by a poll, my house is gun free and I'm going to keep it that way.

Other than that, how was fishing?

con-pilot 6th Nov 2014 00:50


Other than that, how was fishing?
Great ever since I discovered the hand grenade trick. :p

Lord Spandex Masher 6th Nov 2014 00:55


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8729938)
Enough! You're tiring.

Yes, it's hard to argue a fallacy isn't it.

421dog 6th Nov 2014 01:03

Man shot dead in Manchester while confronting robbers | UK news | The Guardian

Apparently stuff still happens there.

The suggestion at the end of the story about making sure that CCTV equipment is working properly should go a long way toward keeping this from happening again.

brickhistory 6th Nov 2014 01:16

If it saves one more burglar, it's worth it...

All the below are just some of the easily findable examples that the misconstruer of facts, SFFP, says never happened. I provided an example of a homeowner shooting a bad guy in this thread, yet he claims "nowt but tumbleweed moments." But oh so reasonable. Just an implication. Just a hint. Nuance is for liberals afraid of stating something firmly. But, then again, given the views expressed, perhaps true 'colours' are showing.


NASHVILLE, Tenn. - A homeowner opened fire on a masked and armed intruder in Antioch Tuesday morning, ultimately killing the man.
Police: Homeowner shoots, kills masked home intruder - WKRN News 2


Houston — The Houston Chronicle is reporting; A 41-year-old man fatally shot a suspected burglar who broke into his southeast Houston home early Saturday morning, authorities said.
Houston homeowner fatally shoots suspected burglar | KETK | East Texas News, Weather and Sports | Tyler, Longview, Jacksonville


"She beat on the door. I heard her knocking you know. I wouldn't let her in," said the 82-year-old. "Well, I keep this 38 under my pillow you know. I was in the bed. So when this door opened, I made three shots up here and shot her yeah."
Elderly man shoots intruder who kicks in his door - WDAM - TV 7 - News, Weather and Sports


SAN DIEGO (CNS) - A 30-year-old Lincoln Park woman awoke to find a burglar in her home early Wednesday and shot her in the leg when she refused to leave, police said.
Homeowner shoots female intruder in Lincoln Park | San Diego 6 | Local News

That oughtta take care of any more fly-bys...

Nani 6th Nov 2014 06:25

Seldomfitforpurpose,


if around half the homes in the US are gun free
"If"! You assume much since no one on this side of the pond will talk about their weapons,that information is between the persons who legally obtains them,the state they reside and their local sheriff's department.

Seldomfitforpurpose 6th Nov 2014 07:17


Originally Posted by West Coast (Post 8729932)
SFFP



Not sure if its you, but one of you huggies keeps pushing this as some sort of conclusion of something.

Why? It doesn't prove squat other than you like to connect dots that shouldn't necessarily be connected.

I've asked this question before, but not received an answer. Be the first.

What's the question?

Seldomfitforpurpose 6th Nov 2014 07:24


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8729963)
If it saves one more burglar, it's worth it...

All the below are just some of the easily findable examples that the misconstruer of facts, SFFP, says never happened. I provided an example of a homeowner shooting a bad guy in this thread, yet he claims "nowt but tumbleweed moments." But oh so reasonable. Just an implication. Just a hint. Nuance is for liberals afraid of stating something firmly. But, then again, given the views expressed, perhaps true 'colours' are showing.



Police: Homeowner shoots, kills masked home intruder - WKRN News 2


Houston homeowner fatally shoots suspected burglar | KETK | East Texas News, Weather and Sports | Tyler, Longview, Jacksonville



Elderly man shoots intruder who kicks in his door - WDAM - TV 7 - News, Weather and Sports



Homeowner shoots female intruder in Lincoln Park | San Diego 6 | Local News

That oughtta take care of any more fly-bys...

When you consider there are about 360,000,000 folk in the U.S. and the hundreds of millions of guns you own and the number of deaths and murders each year by gun those 4 examples you post are actually quite telling.

Bit like I suggested at post #1097 :ok:

PTT 6th Nov 2014 08:12


Originally Posted by 421dog (Post 8729956)

Of course it does. Nobody suggested otherwise. It's much lower than the rate at which it happens over there though.

Lord Spandex Masher 6th Nov 2014 08:17


Originally Posted by brickhistory (Post 8729963)
That oughtta take care of any more fly-bys...

Nice, if a bit short, list. But it still doesn't prove the outcome was a result of owning a gun.

Mr Chips 6th Nov 2014 08:37

First there is a claim of no stories of homeowners defending themselves with guns, when specific examples are provided, it's not enough. Question was asked and answered, please don't move the goalposts.

As for LSM, I frankly can't understand what he is saying. Burglar breaks in, gets shot by gun owning homeowner. What is left to prove in these cases?


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