PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 21:24


Originally Posted by mixture (Post 8725092)
Perhaps that's because the pro-gun nut lobby lead by the NRA marches up Capitol Hill and twists the politicians arms any time it hears an inkling that someone might be contemplating doing something about guns.

Don't try to pretend it doesn't happen, we know US politics heavily influenced by lobbyists and their money (afterall, who gets the master bedroom at the Whitehouse is pretty much a factor of who has spent the most money on their election campaign).

US politicians need to grow some nuts, stick one finger up at the pro-gun lobbyists and do what they are supposed to as legislators !

And you think that Soroses and Bloombergs, and countless others don't do the exact opposite to NRA? You can't be that naive.

Besides, it is all legal and on the upitty-up. If it weren't there'd be much louder cries about it.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 21:31


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8725112)
All of this could be paid for by placing large tax burdens on firearms or on ammunition. Sure, you can make your own of both, but it's another hurdle between the Lanzas of this world and another Sandy Hook.

This alone flies right in the face of the 2nd.

John Hill 2nd Nov 2014 21:53

Is this the other side of the gun culture?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09BZ6ikBZ54

I wonder where those guys stand on the issue of the 2nd Amendment?

Mr Chips 2nd Nov 2014 22:04

Objection. Relevance.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 22:11

John Hill, are you confusing this thread with chemtrails thread?

John Hill 2nd Nov 2014 22:17

"Coal Rollers": Conservatives intentionally spew black smoke from their cars to piss off liberals



The liberals seem a little surprised that conspicuous consumption—waste, even—could be a method of protest. They shouldn’t be. The motivation for political coal rolling is roughly the same one that gets people buying guns and ammo after mass shootings. The expectation, every time, is that liberals will capitalize on the shootings to ban guns, so it’s time to stock up.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 22:46

I so want one..


For as little as $500, anyone with a diesel truck and a dream can install a smoke stack and the equipment that lets a driver “trick the engine” into needing more fuel. The result is a burst of black smoke that doubles as a political or cultural statement—a protest against the EPA, a ritual shaming of hybrid “rice burners,” and a stellar source of truck memes.
Thanks John Hill.

galaxy flyer 2nd Nov 2014 23:00

The lost fact is, while shooters and gun owners maybe less than 1/3rd of the population, it's a single-issue voting bloc and it crosses parties. Plenty of Democrats, regardless of the NRA are as adamant as Republicans. It's more a city vs. rural divide.

GF

AnQrKa 2nd Nov 2014 23:01

“And you think that Soroses and Bloombergs, and countless others don't do the exact opposite to NRA? You can't be that naive.”

Of course they are trying to influence the debate and so they should be. The gun homicide rate in the US compared to civilized countries is proof enough that the pendulum has a great deal of distance to travel to even come close to achieving a balance.

And thus far, Soros and Bloomberg have not even scratched the surface of influence compared to the deceitful NRA.

PTT 2nd Nov 2014 23:08


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8725359)
This alone flies right in the face of the 2nd.

While it might be possible to argue that it does for guns (despite the provisions of the National Firearms Act), I see no way that taxation of ammunition goes against the 2nd.
Chicago is already doing it: Using sales taxes as a gun control tool - Rachael Bade - POLITICO.com

Oh, and:
States look to tax guns, ammo
Obama?s Advisors: Disarm America Through Taxation - Freedom Outpost
Gun Taxes and State Revenues
How Raising Taxes on Guns Could Reduce Violence | The Fiscal Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/10/ny...n-control.html

If your only objection to my proposals is that one of them "is unconstitutional" but is actually happening right now then you don't really have an objection.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 23:12


Originally Posted by AnQrKa (Post 8725467)

And thus far, Soros and Bloomberg have not even scratched the surface of influence compared to the deceitful NRA.


And why do you think that is? Surely not due to lack of funds. It's because. No matter how much money they spend on influencing the politicians, the opposing view translates to a sheer majority of votes. The politicians may be dumb asses, but they are not stupid.
So despite all the money and influence pedaling the will of the people prevails. It may not be the best system, but it is a pretty damn good one.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 23:16


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8725473)
If your only objection to my proposals is that one of them "is unconstitutional" but is actually happening right now then you don't really have an objection.

I do have an objection, and I know that each and every one of these initiatives will be fought in courts and ultimately found unconstitutional.

Ther'll be free guns with each happy meal.

PTT 2nd Nov 2014 23:18


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8725478)
I know that each and every one of these initiatives will be fought in courts and ultimately found unconstitutional.

Well thank you for that thought, Supreme Justice Dushan... :rolleyes:

In the meantime, I'm sure you good folks here are pretty good at making your own ammo. Stock up on the guns, though.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 23:29

A friend at the club makes ammo, so I can always get it from him, but I have ~12k rounds in the bottom drawer. I am good for now.

I have all the guns I want, foe now, although I did see a Nice AR-15 for sale on the board at the club, today.

Oh and BTW, several hundred shots from my guns, this afternoon, and nobody got killed or injured. They safely travelled from home to club and back. The world did not come to an end. Paper targets, well RIP.


Edited to add: The only thing I haven't done yet is clean all the guns, after shooting. Does anyone know if I have to remove the chambeed round, when cleaning, or is it Ok to leave it as is?

galaxy flyer 2nd Nov 2014 23:45

Tax on ammo, not so much here-I just loaded a case of 12ga shells unknown to anyone but my wife. I load both shotgun and metallic cartridges by the hundreds.

The FBI estimates 1 billion gunshots per fatality, so there's that going for us.

GF

Hempy 2nd Nov 2014 23:54

If having a gun in your house or on your person makes you 'safe', America must be the safest country on the planet..

Lord Spandex Masher 3rd Nov 2014 00:05


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8725487)

Edited to add: The only thing I haven't done yet is clean all the guns, after shooting. Does anyone know if I have to remove the chambeed round, when cleaning, or is it Ok to leave it as is?

As a disinterested observer please just leave it in.

BOING 3rd Nov 2014 00:31

AnQrKa

You are aware of course that Bloomberg has a retinue of 17 armed bodyguards. F**in hypocrite. I bet he is more interested in saving his own backside than saving schoolkids.


.

BOING 3rd Nov 2014 00:34

PTT
Using sales as gun control will only go so far. There are Federal judges who are pretty upset right now that Chicago and Washington DC are dragging their feet in reforming their gun control laws with financial tricks. You don't PO a Federal Judge unless you want to spend some time inside for contempt.''

BOING 3rd Nov 2014 00:36

Dushan
You can leave the round in the chamber, just don't snap the trigger to test it after you finish the cleaning.:E

Dushan 3rd Nov 2014 00:37


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8725507)
As a disinterested observer please just leave it in.

Ah, thanks. I always get confused if I have to take them out. I never know which one goes where, after.

IBMJunkman 3rd Nov 2014 01:07

Dushan,,

Ask him.

Jose Canseco shot himself in the hand while cleaning his gun | For The Win

con-pilot 3rd Nov 2014 01:24

My goodness, John Hill's Tag Team Troll members have been out in force the last few days here.

BOING 3rd Nov 2014 01:37

PTT


Quote:
What a joke. Is that why the driver abandoned the car and made a run for it? Since this was LA it is probably an illegal alien with no drivers license.
Sigh. Yes, we know some people are criminals. We know this. But the fact that there are restrictions on who can and cannot legally have access to cars means that there is a hurdle in the way of the "mowing down innocents" scenario. The more hurdles the less chance of it happening, but there will always be incidents. That doesn't mean that the number of incidents has to stay the same.
Quote:
OK PTT you are coopted. What action, specifically, would you take if you could impose legislation on the US? Let us have a practical solution that could actually be turned into law.
Several options spring to mind, including:
Making training mandatory at State level would appear to be palatable for some here. Make federal funding on certain items require a State-wide training system. No need to register the guns, just have state law mandate that ownership requires the training be passed.
Provision of state-run armouries in towns would help make it harder for people to get at weapons, as would a law requiring a minimum level of security for a firearm.
All of this could be paid for by placing large tax burdens on firearms or on ammunition. Sure, you can make your own of both, but it's another hurdle between the Lanzas of this world and another Sandy Hook.

No, it's not perfect. No system short of banning guns will be. But it will very likely be better in terms of preventing gun deaths.
Quote:
OK, your comments about car purchase won't fly. It is quite possible to purchase a car in the US with no proof of a driver's licence and a cash deal. In fact for certain groups that is the way it is done. No licence, no US driving experience, no insurance. If you think that the authorities will do anything about this - forget it. Most police officers these days won't touch a car full of blacks or Mexicans unless the crime is really obvious - it's discrimination you see. Same as your problems.

Now, your other ideas on the guns - not a bad attempt for someone who doesn't live here.

State training could be required. Usually it is already required for advanced permits like concealed weapons permits but not in all States. (The difference being that advanced permits are not covered by the 2nd whereas the basic firearm purchase is). Where this becomes a problem is cost - you can't tax a Right (in-line with voter taxes etc). The training could probably be supplied for free by the State with no problems. Might be difficult to keep this up-to-date because you are always getting people moving from state to state and if they already owned a gun you would probably never find out There is also a problem with consistency, this happens with concealed weapons now, sometimes, because state training requirements differ one state will not recognise the certificates of another state.
Another tricky point is state liability. If the state approves someones training and an accident occurs could the state be sued? Usually the authorities delegate the training to gun clubs etc to avoid this problem.
As a concession to cut a deal, with free state training and no identity records kept the training might fly but it would have to be clearly state not Federal. I will be corrected shortly.

The state run armories won't work. The reason many people own guns is self-defense, you can hardly defend yourself with a gun locked up in an armory.

Laws requiring security have been passed. Uneven rules from city to city, never mind state to state but they do exist - usually in urban areas.

Forget the tax on weapons and ammo. that's a none starter. The tax will be seen as an obstruction to ownership and many parallel settled cases occur in other activities so it would eventually fail in court.

My guess is that in the end gun violence will not be controlled by controlling guns. We will need social changes which will be much more difficult to implement than changes to the law. Why, because Americans see things fundamentally differently than Europeans do. You folks are really looking at the subject from the other end of the telescope to Americans. You see a great benefit to society of banning guns, Americans see the ban as a threat to them as individuals. You see less violence in schools, Americans see more crime and violence in the streets. You see a lack of guns as stabilizing the country by putting the authorities more firmly in control, Americans see it as surrendering their liberty to the government. It probably all goes back to some aspect of the frontier spirit. Remember America is still young, my State became a State in 1859, not exactly an old institution.

America will change but not as a result of advice from people they see as the oppressed while they, as rough as the situation may be, at least feel free.

.
.

obgraham 3rd Nov 2014 01:41


Originally Posted by con-pilot (Post 8725564)
My goodness, John Hill's Tag Team Troll members have been out in force the last few days here.

I'm still waiting for something new on this thread. No sign of that.

Try the UK thread -- even more fun!

rh200 3rd Nov 2014 01:46


Try the UK thread -- even more fun!
I'm not sure if the children get a say in the parents domestic affairs.:E

Parents advising their children though, thats another matter:p

con-pilot 3rd Nov 2014 01:52


Try the UK thread -- even more fun!
Naw, none of my business, they didn't ask me when they took the guns from law abiding citizens, aka 'Subjects', so that now that only the criminal element that have guns, so I see no need to inject my views on them now, I'm not living in the UK as a citizen, aka 'Subject'.

Pinky the pilot 3rd Nov 2014 01:55

Run out of popcorn yet con-pilot?:D

I have to go and get another bottle of red and some more mettwurst. This thread is most entertaining!:ok:

con-pilot 3rd Nov 2014 02:00


Run out of popcorn yet con-pilot?
No, not really, but I did switch to fried chicken for a while.

Oh, my fried chichen, not that fast food stuff. :ok:

Dushan 3rd Nov 2014 02:08

Cue Homer Simpson:

"Con-pilot's fried chicken. Mmmmm!!!!"

Con-pilot, that is fried chicken, not a fried Chechen, right?

con-pilot 3rd Nov 2014 02:11


Con-pilot, that is fried chicken, not a fried Chechen, right?
Naw, they're too tough. :p

galaxy flyer 3rd Nov 2014 02:26

This is the thread equivalent of eating Brussel Sprouts everyday, three meals a day.

GF

PTT 3rd Nov 2014 06:01

BOING - I understand car insurance is required in most states in order to legally drive. This means that anyone driving without a licence is uninsured and therefore driving illegally. Of course it is possible to do so, but it's a hurdle. Of course there is no such law that makes a bad thing impossible, but that's not an argument for having no laws where said laws make that thing more difficult to achieve, either actually or morally. The lax standards of your law enforcement are another compounding issue, of course (not that our own are perfect by a long shot, but there's another thread for that ;) )

- So you agree State training is an option despite some minor hurdles which you've provided most of the answers to. Good: we're getting somewhere.
- I also specified a minimum safe standard for keeping guns, not just state-run armouries. They are complementary measures.
- Taxes are happening right now as I said to Dushan. Telling me that something which is already happening is a "non-starter" is odd.

I do agree that there are fundamental changes required in America to stem the violence. I don't see you guys headed that way any time soon: your politicians and news media (of all stripes) are too busy playing on your fears for it to happen. Ours try the same thing, but to a lesser degree.

America will change but not as a result of advice from people they see as the oppressed while they, as rough as the situation may be, at least feel free.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
;)

Lord Spandex Masher 3rd Nov 2014 06:28


Originally Posted by con-pilot (Post 8725585)
Naw, none of my business, they didn't ask me when they took the guns from law abiding citizens, aka 'Subjects', so that now that only the criminal element that have guns, so I see no need to inject my views on them now, I'm not living in the UK as a citizen, aka 'Subject'.

Good England. :ugh:

MagnusP 3rd Nov 2014 07:30

Seldom:

Gun deaths last year in the UK at 51 were down by 18 percent , yet private gun ownership continues to grow with 1.8 million legally held
Well, that's the "more guns = more deaths" argument blown out of the water, then. Now, if correlation = causation applies, can I have my guns back so there are fewer UK deaths?

Seldomfitforpurpose 3rd Nov 2014 07:35


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8725521)
AnQrKa

You are aware of course that Bloomberg has a retinue of 17 armed bodyguards. F**in hypocrite. I bet he is more interested in saving his own backside than saving schoolkids.


.

Why do you think he needs 17 armed body guards, what do you reckon the threat is?

ExXB 3rd Nov 2014 08:15


Au moins trois personnes ont perdu la vie lundi dans une fusillade à Wilderswil dans l'Oberland bernois.
Une fusillade a fait au moins trois morts lundi matin peu avant 7 heures à Wilderswil dans l'Oberland bernois. Les faits se sont déroulés dans le quartier de la gare, près d'une école, révèle le Berner Oberländer sur son site internet.
Plusieurs voitures de police et au moins deux ambulances se trouvent sur place. Le périmètre a été bouclé et la rue principale fermée. Le trafic est dévié.
On n'en sait pas plus pour l'heure.
Développement suit.
- See more at: Au moins trois morts dans une fusillade à Wilderswil (BE) - Suisse - Actualités - La Côte - Journal régional lémanique
Google translate:


At least three people were killed Monday in a shooting in Interlaken in the Bernese Oberland.
A shooting left at least three people Monday morning shortly before 7:00 in Interlaken in the Bernese Oberland. The incident occurred in the area of ​​the station, near a school, reveals the Berner Oberländer on its website.
Several police cars and at least two ambulances on site. The perimeter was cordoned off and closed the main street. Traffic is diverted.
We do not know any more at this time.
Development follows.
Too many guns, too many gun deaths

Lord Spandex Masher 3rd Nov 2014 08:17


Originally Posted by MagnusP (Post 8725785)
Seldom:


Well, that's the "more guns = more deaths" argument blown out of the water, then. Now, if correlation = causation applies, can I have my guns back so there are fewer UK deaths?

Only if you give them back when more than 51 people are killed in a year.

Seldomfitforpurpose 3rd Nov 2014 08:30


Originally Posted by MagnusP (Post 8725785)
Seldom:


Well, that's the "more guns = more deaths" argument blown out of the water, then. Now, if correlation = causation applies, can I have my guns back so there are fewer UK deaths?

Comparing apples and inner tubes Magnus.

Put your own situation on hold for a moment or two and ask yourself if today's society would benefit from the re introduction of handguns.

How many of those young men on our streets who grew up playing Halo and the like would seek to own a nice silver glock to go along side their rottie as another 'stays symbol'

How many kebab queue commotions would get settled with a 'BANG'

What do you think would be the effect of a reintroduction of handguns, bearing in mind if you can own one pretty much anyone else with a clean track record gets one.

Like I said forget your own personal views for just a moment and comment if you would on how you see the big picture panning out if we allow most of today's youth the opportunity to own a hand gun.

MagnusP 3rd Nov 2014 08:59

Hey, I didn't post the figures on more guns and fewer deaths. The fact that scrotes in kebab queues killing each other with knives hasn't led to a ban on my 10" Henkels chef's knife or a ban on my set of santoku knives ought to give you a clue as to why I don't think my guns should have had to be surrendered.


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:54.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.