PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

galaxy flyer 2nd Nov 2014 14:26

PTT,

That's true in the UK where people's rights are given at the pleasure of Her Majesty. Not sot so in the US.

SFFP,

I wrongly accused you of lecturing, but many Euros/Brits here do just that-don't judge the many be the actions of the few. Laudable, until they do just that. I'm off to shoot with the likes of school teachers, surgeons, firefighters, police and another professional pilot. I guess we're all just psychopaths and murderers due to owning and supporting the 2nd Amendment.

GF

PTT 2nd Nov 2014 14:26

Dushan - Nope. That industry is based on people collectively taking their rights.

GF - You've heard of the Magna Carta, I assume? You're making the apparently common mistake of assuming we are subjects, not citizens. Even in the US you only have the rights you take.

I'm off to shoot with the likes of school teachers, surgeons, firefighters, police and another professional pilot. I guess we're all just psychopaths and murderers due to owning and supporting the 2nd Amendment.
Where has anyone said that?

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Nov 2014 14:29


Originally Posted by galaxy flyer (Post 8724808)
SFFP,

I wrongly accused you of lecturing, but many Euros/Brits here do just that-don't judge the many be the actions of the few. Laudable, until they do just that. I'm off to shoot with the likes of school teachers, surgeons, firefighters, police and another professional pilot. I guess we're all just psychopaths and murderers due to owning and supporting the 2nd Amendment.

GF


Some might think that way but I have never thought that myself :ok:

Mr Chips 2nd Nov 2014 15:03

Seldom I'm not sure but I think you are agreeing with me...

It is not illegal for a person with Downs to drive a car, and there are no blanket restrictions on car driving, but your friends obviously do not think it appropriate for their child to drive. They could, but they choose not to.

Mrs Lanza could have chosen to to have guns, but she didn't. Why therefore is there any need to restrict other peoples rights/privilege/whatever?

Perhaps they should have written that every citizen has the right to bear arms, but please don't be a douche about it....

You can't - and indeed shouldn't - try to legislate against every individual circumstance.

ExXB 2nd Nov 2014 15:10

Dateline Memphis: "Eight-year-old boy shot while trick or treating on Halloween"

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Nov 2014 15:15


Originally Posted by Mr Chips (Post 8724836)
and there are no blanket restrictions on car driving,


Have you read this


https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving


After a Total knee replacement I was told not to drive for 6 weeks, I also remember having to read a number plate at a certain distance as part of my test so I think there are plenty of medical conditions that would preclude anyone driving.


Its certainly not simply left to individuals to interpret.....

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 15:17


Originally Posted by ExXB (Post 8724843)
Dateline Memphis: "Eight-year-old boy shot while trick or treating on Halloween"

I think you only read the headline. If you bothered to read to the end you would have discovered that


This isn't the only shocking incident to take place on Halloween in America last night though. Three schoolgirls have been killed by a hit-and-run driver while they were out trick-or-treating.

The girls, all aged 13, were dressed in Halloween costumes and carrying bags of sweets when a people carrier ploughed into them as they crossed the road.

Two of the girls were pronounced dead at the scene. Paramedics tried to save the third but she was pronounced dead minutes later.

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 15:22


Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose (Post 8724845)
After a Total knee replacement I was told not to drive for 6 weeks,

Being told and being prohibited, by law, are two different things. Most likely reason for "being told" was because it would be bad for you and the healing process, not because you suddenly don't know how to drive.

Hempy 2nd Nov 2014 15:27

One child murder out of four caused by handguns while trick or treating an acceptable ratio for you is it Dushan?

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Nov 2014 15:30

Dushan,

It was actually because my car insurance would have been invalid as the medical opinion was that I would be incapable of driving safely. Driving without valid motor insurance is an offence in law so yes my condition did mean I was prohibited from driving.

You would assume that most folk would be able to work that out themselves, the fact that everyone has to have it explained to them suggests otherwise.

Anyway about the US Right to Bear Arms, is anyone excluded from that right?

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 15:41


Originally Posted by Hempy (Post 8724856)
One child murder out of four caused by handguns while trick or treating an acceptable ratio for you is it Dushan?

First of all the child was not killed, unlike

Manchester shooting: Murder investigation launched after man shot dead outside frozen food shop - Mirror Online

in the land of no guns.

Second, why no outrage that three children were killed by a car.

PTT 2nd Nov 2014 15:48


why no outrage that three children were killed by a car.
Because reasonable precautions are taken to try to avoid it. Training, testing, that kind of thing. As opposed to simply getting in a car and driving.

It's tragic, but deaths will always happen no matter how much we try to avoid them. That doesn't mean we should shrug our shoulders and ignore the phenomenon, nor does it mean we should prevent all activity from happening.

Mr Chips 2nd Nov 2014 15:56

So, despite "Testing and training" a driver chose to use his car as a weapon and killed three children

How do you legislate against people like that?

brickhistory 2nd Nov 2014 16:00

Murder is illegal.

Yet it still occurs.

As an experiment, I wonder if our holier-than-thou foreign correspondents would submit to a government CCTV installation in their homes?

I believe you recently had an incident where 1,400 children were molested in just one town.
I believe there is evidence that various state agencies, including the police, knew of the practice yet it continued for many years.

No one knows how many more such heinous acts occur nationwide.

If there's a government monitor in every home, surely the rate of such preventable abuse could be lowered.

It's only a small personal liberty to sacrifice and if, for the greater good, indeed if it safeguards just one child, it is a worthwhile effort.

Agreed?

PTT 2nd Nov 2014 16:05


Originally Posted by Mr Chips (Post 8724893)
So, despite "Testing and training" a driver chose to use his car as a weapon and killed three children

How do you legislate against people like that?

You test and train in order to limit the number of times it happens, not stop it completely. I already said that.

brickhistory - if state agencies knew about it then why would state-run CCTV change anything?
Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

bcgallacher 2nd Nov 2014 16:07

Dushan - once again your comprehension of UK gun laws seems to be lacking You have been informed on several occasions about controlled firearms in the UK but you cannot seem to get it into your head that gun ownership is permitted.Another point is that the day that the Asian shop owner was shot dead about 80 American residents suffered the same fate,this is about the same as we have in a year in the UK. What you experience in your country is a prime example of the law of unintended consequences.Do you think they the writers of the 2nd amendment anticipated the 30,000 a year death toll which has resulted from the proliferation of firearms in your society?

Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 16:14

Breaking news!!! PTT sees the light!!
 
Finally you are starting to understand what we are saying, all along.


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8724881)

It's tragic, but deaths will always happen no matter how much we try to avoid them.


Dushan 2nd Nov 2014 16:16


Originally Posted by bcgallacher (Post 8724904)
Dushan - once again your comprehension of UK gun laws seems to be lacking You have been informed on several occasions about controlled firearms in the UK but you cannot seem to get it into your head that gun ownership is permitted.

So the gun used in Manchester was legally owned and carried?

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Nov 2014 16:18

Hi Dushan,


Are any US citizens excluded from the Right to bear Arms?

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 16:19

Seldom

Just answer the questions.
We KNOW that the present situation is not good so just leave out the time wasting repetitions of the problem.
YOU have the opportunity to tell us what YOU would do if you had the power.
All you have done is suggest one miserable, impractical, idea that would , possibly, have effected one incident. Hardly the great revision American law that you advocate.

You have a box to work in to solve the problem. The bounds of the box have been described many times. Now tell us how you would proceed to solve the US gun control problems you describe. Stop diverting the discussion to cars and Halloween and get on with telling us how to solve the problems you claim exist. Answer the questions and stop side-tracking the discussion.

Put your money where your mouth is or stay quiet.

.

PTT 2nd Nov 2014 16:19


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8724909)
Finally you are starting to understand what we are saying, all along.

You're not:
That doesn't mean we should shrug our shoulders and ignore the phenomenon, nor does it mean we should prevent all activity from happening.

bcgallacher 2nd Nov 2014 16:27

Brick history - your reference to the child abuse scandal in England is irrelevant to gun deaths but if you want to argue the point, in the same time period over 14,000 American children suffered the ultimate abuse - they were shot dead.I would suggest a more serious neglect lies there.

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 16:29

In addition to the 3 killed in Los Angeles here is a summary of Halloween deaths.

[quoteOther crashes killed or injured trick-or-treaters around the country:

— In the nearby city of Irvine, police said a man was struck and killed while trick-or-treating with his 4-year-old son. The Register reports the child suffered significant injuries and remained in critical condition Saturday. The driver cooperated with investigators.

— In New York state, a 3-year-old boy was killed and a 16-year-old girl was seriously injured when they were hit by a car as they crossing a two-lane road in Greece, police said. The driver is cooperating and has not been charged.

— A 2-year-old in Florida trick-or-treating with a group died when he was hit by a bus. He was in a stroller with two other children when the adult pushing them across a street realized he had dropped his cellphone. The man stopped the stroller in the median and told the children to stay while he retrieved the phone. The child got out of the stroller and was hit by a driver who did not see him in the street, authorities said.

— Authorities in Washington state said two 7-year-old girls and a 20-year-old woman sustained life-threatening injuries when they were hit by a car while trick-or-treating in Vancouver. The Columbian reported that police said a car jumped a curb and hit the trio.][/quote]

There are probably as many accidents again that are not reported.

You know what? Nobody but the immediately effected gives a darn. Six dead and five critically injured and nobody will remember this tomorrow. Try banning Halloween celebrations, fat chance. Hear anybody shouting about preventing Halloween deaths, not a whimper, yet everybody wants to leap into the act if even a toy gun is involved. Anti-gunners are the biggest load of hypocrites on the Earth.

PTT

Because reasonable precautions are taken to try to avoid it. Training, testing, that kind of thing. As opposed to simply getting in a car and driving.
What a joke. Is that why the driver abandoned the car and made a run for it? Since this was LA it is probably an illegal alien with no drivers license.

.

bcgallacher 2nd Nov 2014 16:35

Dushan - your statement was 'gun free' not 'illegal gun free'. Nowhere has anyone stated that there were no illegal guns in the UK,you are being a little disingenuous. As I have pointed out on the same day the shopkeeper was killed about 80 American residents suffered the same fate. Note I use the term Residents as I do not know if they were all citizens.

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 16:40

BCG


80 American residents suffered the same fate
Not true.

Statistically over 40 of the US deaths would be suicides and about 12 to 15 would be crime related. Not a pretty picture but not the large number of murders your bald statement implies. You are not making a fair comparison, the UK event was murder so compare the numbers with US murders.

.

bcgallacher 2nd Nov 2014 16:43

Boing - are you really trying to say that because children are killed in auto accidents it is of no consequence that others are shot dead? That is probably the most callous philosophy that I have come across in a long time. you ask who will remember?I do not think you are a parent or you would not ask the question A point of fact is that this year gunshot deaths are anticipated to exceed auto accident deaths in the USA.

Seldomfitforpurpose 2nd Nov 2014 16:44


Originally Posted by BOING (Post 8724937)
BCG



Not true.

Statistically over 40 of the US deaths would be suicides and about 12 to 15 would be crime related. Not a pretty picture but not the large number of murders your bald statement implies. You are not making a fair comparison, the UK event was murder so compare the numbers with US murders.

.



I am pretty sure going down the comparison route is not in your best interest with regards to this subject.........

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 16:46

Post 821

OK PTT you are coopted. What action, specifically, would you take if you could impose legislation on the US? Let us have a practical solution that could actually be turned into law.

After all I do understand by your use of "we" in the post you feel that you have the right to intervene in American society.

bcgallacher 2nd Nov 2014 16:47

Boing - he died of gunshot wounds as did the 80. If you want to compare total homicide you will find the figures equally disturbing.

ExXB 2nd Nov 2014 16:52

From: Innocents Lost: A Year of Unintentional Child Gun Deaths | Everytown for Gun Safety - Innocents Lost: A Year of Unintentional Child Gun Deaths

Federal data from the Centers for Disease Control indicate that between 2007 and 2011, an average of 62 children age 14 and under were accidentally shot and killed each year.

But our analysis of publicly reported gun deaths, highlighted in ďInnocents Lost: A Year of Unintentional Child Gun Deaths,Ē shows that the federal data substantially undercount these deaths:
From December 2012 to December 2013, at least 100 children were killed in unintentional shootings ó almost two each week, 61 percent higher than federal data reflect.

About two-thirds of these unintended deaths ó 65 percent ó took place in a home or vehicle that belonged to the victimís family, most often with guns that were legally owned but not secured.

More than two-thirds of these tragedies could be avoided if gun owners stored their guns responsibly and prevented children from accessing them
.
Note this report is about deaths, and doesn't include those only injured.

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 16:56


I am pretty sure going down the comparison route is not in your best interest with regards to this subject.........
I'll live with it Seldom. Give it your best shot, stay on the subject, tell me what you think, don't feel you have to hold back. The field is yours old horse. Come on I'm waiting.

Cut the BS and justify your comment even though it is one of your usual, by now conditioned, attempts at distracting from the true discussion.

You can't tell me how you would handle gun control in the US even if you had the chance.
The Mrs. Lanza distraction blew up in your face when you had to deal with facts.
Your side-track into broken (or whatever it was) legs did not last long.
The car diversion did not work.

Let's see what you can come up with this time.

.


.

bcgallacher 2nd Nov 2014 16:57

Boing W.H.O figures for homicide from all causes in the UK is 1.0 per hundred thousand population,for the USA it is 4.7 per hundred thousand. What do you think we are doing wrong?

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 17:01

bcg

I am at least as equally knowledgeable about US gun deaths as you are plus I have the advantage of living the situation which you do not. Your claim that a suicide equals a murder is so stupid it is mind boggling if only for the obvious reason a suicide was trying TO kill himself with a gun, presumably someone who was murdered was trying TO AVOID death.

.

mixture 2nd Nov 2014 17:06


Manchester shooting: Murder investigation launched after man shot dead outside frozen food shop - Mirror Online

in the land of no guns.
You pro-gun nuts really should stop clutching at oil coated straws !

I'm sure you're not that stupid and that you know very well that you're making a very poor comparison indeed.

How many children and others get murdered by shooters in US educational establishments .... EVERY ... SINGLE ... YEAR ? Same goes for other shootings in the USA ?

So, there was a shooting in Manchester... it remains a very rare thing in the UK and Europe compared to the slaughter that happens... EVERY ...SINGLE...MONTH... in the USA !

Just for the record, I'm not saying "ban all guns", I'm saying its time for the USA to stop shrugging shoulders and turning a blind eye in the name of the second amendment ! Because at the moment, the USA is acting like the three wise monkeys.... "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"..... "what gun deaths....I didn't hear the news.... we can't possibly debate the matter, the second amendment is set in stone, never to be amended".

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 17:06

ExxB


Innocents Lost: A Year of Unintentional Child Gun Deaths

by: Everytown for Gun Safety on: June 24, 2014

Federal data from the Centers for Disease Control indicate that between 2007 and 2011, an average of 62 children age 14 and under were accidentally shot and killed each year.

But our analysis of publicly reported gun deaths, highlighted in ďInnocents Lost: A Year of Unintentional Child Gun Deaths,Ē shows that the federal data substantially undercount these deaths:
Yes, that sounds like a great impartial organisation finding deaths that even the anti-gun CDC could not find..

BOING 2nd Nov 2014 17:17

Mixture


How many children and others get murdered by shooters in US educational establishments .... EVERY ... SINGLE ... YEAR ? Same goes for other shootings ?

So, there was a shooting in Manchester... it remains a very rare thing in the UK and Europe compared to the slaughter happens... EVERY ...SINGLE...MONTH... in the USA !
One immediate difference is that the Manchester shooting was real your projection of deaths for US school children is imaginary until they happen. History versus imagination. The school shootings are a relatively new phenomenon and the schools and police are still getting to grips with the issue. I know personally, because I am in the business, that new training is being undertaken - it takes time.

You people just do not listen do you?
Look, nobody in the US thinks the present situation could not be improved but given the restraints the solution can not easily be found.
One of you, any one of you, you bleating sheep, could suggest a practical legal way to control gun violence in the US.
You are all experts apparently but all you can do is whine about the problem rather than suggest one possibly workable solution.
Until there is a positive, workable, suggestion from you people on how to deal with the perceived US gun problem you are just a load of overinflated airbags.

Do I make myself clear?

.

mixture 2nd Nov 2014 17:19


One of you, any one of you, you bleating sheep, could suggest a practical legal way to control gun violence in the US.
You are all experts apparently but all you can do is whine about the problem rather than suggest one possibly workable solution.

The "bleating sheep" have suggested many practical ways.
You may also look around the world for many practical ways it has been successfully implemented.

But as I said... at the moment, the USA is acting like the three wise monkeys.... "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"..... "what gun deaths....I didn't hear the news.... we can't possibly debate the matter, the second amendment is set in stone, never to be amended".

The US pro-gun lobby's unwillingness to give any ground whatsoever on the matter, let alone engage in an adult debate, is simply obscene.

Mr Chips 2nd Nov 2014 17:29

Personally, I found this fascinating...


More guns, more crime?

Not necessarily.

Itís true that America tops the Small Arms Surveyís world chart for gun ownership, with 88.8 guns per 100 residents. And the firearm murder rate is higher than in any other country in the developed world.

Thatís a correlation, but it doesnít prove causation. And this is a problem that dogs most attempts to infer definite conclusions from any of the many statistics on guns.

Itís equally true to say that Britainís tighter gun laws didnít lead to a significant drop in gun crime. And that the US gun murder rate is falling, even as gun ownership rises. But again, this doesnít prove cause and effect.

We donít know what would have happened if things had been different and we donít know how far other factors are affecting crime.

Perhaps there would have been an explosion of gun crime here in the absence of the Dunblane laws. Maybe the rise in Americaís prison population has led to a drop in violence on the streets and gun ownership has nothing to do with it.

This is why most major academic studies in the US have come to the same conclusion: that there isnít enough evidence to say one way or the other that gun control laws will lead to fewer deaths.

The gun control debate will rage on in the US, but itís unlikely that either side will be able to prove their case with statistics alone.
Channel4 Fact Check Blog

galaxy flyer 2nd Nov 2014 17:57


pro-gun nuts
Is this your idea of reasonableness, mixture?

GF

brickhistory 2nd Nov 2014 18:10

Interesting to note that not one of the Don Quixote High Horse Brigade (Light) directly answered by query regarding government-mandated CCTV in their personal homes to help combat child abuse.

I offered a solution that would at least decrease the opportunity for such bad acts to occur.

That solution didn't involve giving much personal liberty and only submitting a little to the state, yet the potential to save even one child makes it a practical solution to the problem.

Instead, those that even chose to acknowledge the premise and similarity dismissed it as "argued before," or impractical, or not the same thing at all.

But no simple 'yes' or 'no' to the question of "would you give up more of your personal liberty if it saved one child from abuse?"

The argument seems remarkably similar and since guns are effectively banned in the UK (funny about the gun crime still rampant there), here is an opportunity to contribute to the societal whole in a related area with like solutions as proposed to my fellow Americans.

Sacrifice the individual's liberty for the good of the society as deemed by others.


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:05.


Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.