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-   -   A USA gun thread. That won't be controversial, will it? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549775-usa-gun-thread-wont-controversial-will.html)

rgbrock1 29th Oct 2014 15:26

Dushan:

The photo of the Desert Eagle is indeed one of a replica. You can thank the Israelis for that one, in that they licensed it for production in Japan.

However, the Mark XIX model I have is manufactured here in the U.S. at MRI's - now Kahr Arms - factory in MN.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 15:28


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8719305)
LSM, if you are so fearful, then you might be advised to not own any guns.
Not everyone shares your irrational fears.

Sorry? Where did I say I was fearful?

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 15:30

Freedom, baby.

Or the government can decide for you.

Fundamental issue on this and every other gun thread ever.

Those that are anti-gun want to punish me for the mere fact of possesion.

I want to punish those who actually do wrong.

Make owning firearms illegal - which you can't without changing the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, which I note again, hasn't been attempted seriously since my nation's founding - would make for millions of new criminals.

And they'd be armed.

I'm fairly sure a good number would not go gently into the night as the UK's 'lie back and take it' laws required.

If you like it, great. Too bad about those that disagreed with you and lost possessions to the state or became criminals. But a minor inconvenience to most.

I'm sure the next 'minor inconvenience' to most will likewise go well until The Government controls all. It would appear the UK and much of Europe is already that way and, apparently, likes being infantilized.

Ok for you.

Not so much for me, here, in my country with my Constitutional rights that no government, or government official, can take simply because he wants to.

Not for lack of trying, granted. But the old girl keeps on shrugging off such assualts eventually.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 15:34


You cannot guarantee that you, or somebody, else won't injure or kill someone with your guns though.
If that is what you fear will happen, don't own guns.

You can't guarantee that the train won't run off the tracks, chicken little Spandex, so stop taking the train.

You can't guarantee that someone won't steal your car and run over children with it, chicken little spandex, so don't own a car.

Etcetera.

Get your umbrella, LSM, the sky reall is falling! :eek:

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 15:37

It's not what I fear will happen, it is what does happen, regularly, in the USA.

Why do you keep guns in a gun safe?

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 15:38

Why did your government take yours (society's if not yours specifically)?

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 16:15


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8719350)
It's not what I fear will happen, it is what does happen, regularly, in the USA.

Another lie from one willfully ignorant.

It happens occasionally, and the press make a big deal over it.

This is a big place. If one event happens, that doesn't mean it happens everywhere here. You are a victim of your own uncritical reading of sensationalist journalism.
Confirmation bias: LSM, fine example.

To answer your question directly:
1. Makes the missus more secure, in terms of there being less of a chance of an accident.
2. They are valuable.
3. The home defense piece, loaded, isn't kept in a safe. It would do me no good there were I to need it, eh? Hopefully, I never do need it for that purpose.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 16:24

30 odd people a day isn't occasional.

Oh, and to call it a lie you would have to know that I intentionally stated it incorrectly. You don't.

BenThere 29th Oct 2014 16:27

How do you define 'odd people'?

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 16:28

30 odd people per day, in a continent?
Really?
Not occasional?

If it were 30 people a day in a city of 250,000, I'd be concerned.
In a nation of 310 million? Sorry, I fail to see your "regularly" stacking up at all.
Do you really have no idea how big this place is? Try flying over it some time ... hey, maybe you have, when you were a pilot, and you still don't get it.

More to your inaccuracy, 30 odd people per day do not pick up someone else's gun and hurt someone else. You have been provided pages and pages of insight and information about gun crimes and other fatalities in the course of this thread, but prefer not to pay attention.

Once again, you do not have your information in order, nor your thinking.
Yet again: rgb has provided you with a nice little tid bit that you seem to ignore: about 60% of the deaths from firearms here are self inflicted/suicide.

How about you stop with your half-assed attempts? Your posts are willful, hence the charge of a lie. I do not see innocent ignorance, as you have been provided a variety of insights in this very thread ... which I hope you have bothered to read before sounding off.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 16:32

Do you know the definition of occasionally?

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 16:35

Yes.
Do you understand what regularly means, and the context it is used in?

Dushan 29th Oct 2014 16:35


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8719350)
Why do you keep guns in a gun safe?

Who says? Loaded and ready, pump action shotgun, should always be by bedside.

BOING 29th Oct 2014 16:35

It is very clear that, other than the entertainment value. it is pointless discussing this subject with the UK antis since they are no more informed than the US antis but, at least, the US antis get to vote in the US elections so there is some point in talking to them.

We are dealing with people that do not know squat about the subject they are bloviating on in practice, I would be most interested to know how many of the anti group here have ever actually fired anything other than a shotgun, especially since national service was terminated.

They have no practical knowledge of firearms.
Most of their arguments are lifted directly from US anti gun sites and presented as divine truth.
They have no practical experience of actually living in the US to see its absolute vastness which encourages possession of firearms.
They have no practical experience of actually living or working in the type of urban area where people who have a choice do not venture.
They have no idea that the US is actually such a vast mosaic of urban, rural, desert, forest, marine, flat, mountainous, peaceful, criminal, bucolic and vicious areas that gun ownership is not only desirable but oftentimes wise.
For the crowd that has most of its stressful events occurring trying to find a parking spot at ASDA we can't expect them to understand opinions in the US.
Finally, they do not understand that if the majority of the population in the US was truly anti-gun the rules would change so rather than trying to project their opinions onto the US population they should just allow the US to choose for itself, which, infuriatingly for these "wiser than thou" individuals, it does.


.


.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 16:38


Originally Posted by Dushan (Post 8719430)
Who says? Loaded and ready, pump action shotgun, should always be by bedside.

In which case you cannot guarantee that it will only be used as you intended.

BenThere 29th Oct 2014 16:46


Loaded and ready, pump action shotgun, should always be by bedside.
Very good point.

I'm reversing the positions. The pump shotgun is going under the master bedroom bed, and the 1911 .45 semi is going to the basement, concrete-protected firing position should the bedroom be cut off.

Thanks for making me rethink it.

KBPsen 29th Oct 2014 16:49

Yeah, 'cause you know they are coming for ya.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 16:52


Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher (Post 8719435)
In which case you cannot guarantee that it will only be used as you intended.

And you can't guarantee that the city bus won't swerve and hit your car.
Stay home, chicken little, the world's a dangerous place.
Get out some bubble wrap, there are sharp corners on the counters in your very home! :eek:

rgbrock1 29th Oct 2014 16:54

LW50 wrote:


Get out some bubble wrap, there are sharp corners on the counters in your very home!
But the bubble wrap can suffocate you. :}

PTT 29th Oct 2014 16:55

"Stay home, chicken little" only works so far, although it is a fun movie. There are limits of danger each of us is willing to accept, and we all assess levels of risk differently. Your "the bus might swerve" argument is a slippery slope.
Frankly, you have guns because of your assessment of one danger and you want to defend yourself from it; we don't have them because we think the danger from guns is greater than the danger from not having them. As discussed earlier, there is no real correlation either way so nobody is "right" on that particular assessment.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 17:00

PTT, points worth pondering.
Consider the freedom to choose.

Not everyone on this side of the pond owns firearms. That is a choice one is free to make. I'd like to keep it that way.

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 17:05

I have long believed that the intense interest in American society in general and gun in particular is our European cousins seeking some sort of validation.

They did it (actually had it 'done to 'em' by their governments) and they want us to follow along, thereby demonstrating that they were right.

And it gets up 'em when we choose our own way.

Which I enjoy.



As to home defense strategies: obviously no one right answer.

But based on the home layout, neighbors via an apartment wall, or separated in separate houses, or completely rural, the tools differ.

A shotgun is widely thought to be the best, but it still has to be used effectively and aimed to hit the target. A 00 buckshot load won't cover an entire room as it does in Hollywood. More like 2-3 feet wide and at a distance the .32 shot disperses enough that it may not be a take down.

Overpenetration by handguns or rifle rounds is a real concern. Doesn't do much good to take down the home-invading bad guy if the round goes through the drywall and hits a loved one or a neighbor.

Access to a weapon is another issue to consider. The nightstand pistol isn't much use if you answer the door and it's kicked in on you.

Or if you are downstairs and its upstairs.

Number and age of kids in the house must be considered if applicable.

A safe area where your avenues of approach are limited and the crisis can be waited out while the police, eventually, respond. Or you can thwart the attack if the bad guy is intent on doing you and yours harm.

Last night, a homeowner in my city answered a knock on the door. Before he got to it, it was kicked in. Homeowner was able to get to his handgun, put one in the invader's chest. Invader about-faced, died.

No charges brought against the homeowner and he and his family live to face another day, albeit shaken up and no doubt with some lasting stress.

But alive.

Me? Several handguns near the likeliest areas where they might be needed. Reasonable safety precautions to ensure they never are, and practice, practice, practice. (Not to mention the enjoyment of a hobby).

A shotgun or long rifle is impractical in my current living arrangements.

Reasonable thoughts, reasonable actions, reasonable man.

Your mileage may vary.

Except in Europe where the government's got your back.

wings folded 29th Oct 2014 17:16


Overpenetration by handguns or rifle rounds is a real concern. Doesn't do much good to take down the home-invading bad guy if the round goes through the drywall and hits a loved one or a neighbor.
I know what you mean. I used to have nightmares about that very concern. But when I woke up, I remembered that I don't have a gun, nor does my neighbour. Because we are not allowed to. Suits me fine.

In America do as you think fit. It is your choice. Equally, stop all this nonsense about your views on what takes place in other countries. That is their choice.

The choices turned out to be different. People can be different.

PTT 29th Oct 2014 17:20


PTT, points worth pondering.
Consider the freedom to choose.

Not everyone on this side of the pond owns firearms. That is a choice one is free to make. I'd like to keep it that way.
Absolutely, but that wasn't the point I was addressing. I was simply saying that the regular "chicken little" calls ring somewhat hollow.

The freedom to choose is perfectly reasonable. There is also the freedom as a society to recognise that perhaps sometimes (certainly not all the time or most of the time) those who most want guns are those who should be least allowed to have them and to impose restrictions on the individual for the safety of all. Such restrictions apply in many situations regardless of the Franklin quote.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 17:20

wings, if more people adopted that attitude, there'd be fewer of these threads and fewer inane comments in same.

Then what would we talk about?

Wiener Schnitzel?
How to cook the perfect omelette?

Actually, that's not a bad idea! :ok:

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 17:25


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 8719461)
And you can't guarantee that the city bus won't swerve and hit your car.
:

Nope, which is why I take preventative measures like wearing a seatbelt for instance. Unlike you when you leave live weapons lying around.

wings folded 29th Oct 2014 17:26


wings, if more people adopted that attitude, there'd be fewer of these threads and fewer inane comments in same.

Then what would we talk about?

Wiener Schnitzel?
How to cook the perfect omlette?

Actually, that's not a bad idea!
I know.

I began an egg thread ages ago; it went on for page after page and rooted out violently opposing views on how to poach an egg (e.g. swirl the water or leave it still?), or how to scramble (no, not bandits high at 10 o'clock).

A thread which had much more value, I feel.

rgbrock1 29th Oct 2014 17:30

An egg thread became violent? Wow. Can you imagine what would happen in a sausage thread? Thermo-nuclear warfare no doubt.

brickhistory 29th Oct 2014 17:37


In America do as you think fit. It is your choice. Equally, stop all this
nonsense about your views on what takes place in other countries. That is their choice.
This has been my point in each and every U.S. gun thread.

Every single one of them.

Yet it is ONLY the American gun threads which drive the largely European comments, mostly negative, about America, Americans' possession of guns, Americans' freedom of choice.

Look at this thread at 22 pages and slowly winding down and the Vienna gun one at 3 pages.

The latter has been running for far less time than this one, but this one reached 3 pages within the first day.

Why is that?

Why do American gun threads draw European fire yet ones in their own backyard are dismissed?

Even deleted.

I am all for each nation deciding for itself and leaving them to it.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 17:40


Originally Posted by PTT (Post 8719506)
those who most want guns are those who should be least allowed to have them and to impose restrictions on the individual for the safety of all.

That doesn't apply here, since the vast majority of those who own firearms DON'T commit crimes with them.

You'll also note that we have rules, like, convicted felons are by law not permitted to own firearms. (In some states, the right can be restored via a formal appeal/process, etc, which is a bit like a licensing process ... and as such, reserved as a requirement for those who have already demonstrated a behavior of felonious behavior.)

PTT, not even a nice try on that one.

wings folded 29th Oct 2014 17:40


I am all for each nation deciding for itself and leaving them to it.
Very noble. So stop posting such as:


Your mileage may vary.

Except in Europe where the government's got your back.

Lord Spandex Masher 29th Oct 2014 17:40

Freedom of choice.

But bless your little cotton socks for being a bit sensitive.

BenThere 29th Oct 2014 17:43

How many European gun threads have there been where Americans call on Europeans to stop their insanity?

American gun threads start every 6 months or so and it's pretty much always the same.

Americans are going to have their guns if they want them. It's in the Constitution and most of us love the Constitution. I don't think that'll change in my lifetime.

Interestingly, the all-too-frequent shoot ups we have motivate me to promote more general carry while they have just the opposite effect on critics of our gun laws.

I think I can go out on a limb and predict threads like this will reappear until Pprune's last day.

Ancient Observer 29th Oct 2014 17:43

Gosh. Page 22.

Has anyone changed their opinion????


Even slightly????


Move along. Nothing new here. Rubber neckers not required.

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 17:46

I was a participant in that egg thread, wings, and learned a bit about technique. A worthy discussion indeed. It had to do with breakfast! :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose 29th Oct 2014 17:47

I genuinely thought you 'Murricans were big on Freedom of Speech as well as Freedom of Choice.................or does it only extend to Freedom of 'your kind' of Speech?

Lonewolf_50 29th Oct 2014 17:53

Another lie from you, LSM.

Unlike you when you leave live weapons lying around.
I don't "leave live weapons lying around."
LSM, does it give you joy to spread falsehoods?
SFFP:
You are free to demonstrate your ignorance as far as you like, and others are free to expose/point out same to you.
(True for us all, on the interwebs ... )

con-pilot 29th Oct 2014 17:58


or does it only extend to Freedom of 'your kind' of Speech?
There is a difference between restricting what one can say and disagreeing with what someone says.

No one here is or has, attempted to restrict (censor) what you post.

You are the one that seems to have a problem with people disagreeing with you, just from the post of yours I quoted.

wings folded 29th Oct 2014 18:00


I was a participant in that egg thread, wings, and learned a bit about technique. A worthy discussion indeed. It had to do with breakfast!
I remember you well; con-pilot was also a worthy contributor.

rgbrock1 29th Oct 2014 18:01

Let's see how worthy con-pilot is in his contributions to the thread
"Brussels Sprouts Gorge Fest."


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