PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   Scottish independence Hamsterwheel. (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/541819-scottish-independence-hamsterwheel.html)

mad_jock 16th Jun 2014 10:07

Scottish independence Hamsterwheel.
 
A place to keep all the pish on Scottish independence so it doesn't infect anywhere else.

http://thesteepletimes.com/wp-conten...otsman-550.jpg

500N 16th Jun 2014 10:15

Mad

I was just about to start one myself.

:ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose 16th Jun 2014 10:21

Threat to the pensioner vote.

BBC News - Scottish independence: Think tank concern over 'Yes' state pensions

MFC_Fly 16th Jun 2014 10:30

Here we go round the mulberry bush
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning

MFC_Fly 16th Jun 2014 10:43

Let's keep it simple.... here is the most of the thread in one post....


YES - We don't want Conservative Governments all the time
NO - Errr, the last Government was Labour and this one is a coalition

YES - We can live off the proceeds of oil
NO - Err, isn't the oil running out and the income received each year declining?

YES - We will be better off.
NO - How? The White Paper tells us how much tax will be cut and how spending will be increased, but that only equals deficit. To break even then there will have to be higher taxes or less spending.

YES - We will keep the Pound Sterling.
NO - Err, no. You have been told by the leaders of all the major UK parties that will not happen. Also, the strong feeling against such a move by the people of the rUK will not allow that to happen. Feel free to use the Pound Sterling as an outside nation but not under any currency union.

YES - We will stay in the EU, we are already members.
NO - Err, no. The UK is a member state, if you choose to leave the UK then you leave the EU until you reapply and are accepted in as a new state.

YES - We can afford to go independent.
NO - How do you know that? The SNP will not give the costing that they promised they were working on 2 years ago.

YES - La, la, la, la, la
NO - Exactly!! Living in Lala Land!

:ok:

MadsDad 16th Jun 2014 10:45

Wouldn't the pound Stirling be more of a Scottish currency?

MagnusP 16th Jun 2014 10:47

The pound Stirling will consist of 100 John O' Groats.

Sallyann1234 16th Jun 2014 10:57


Wouldn't the pound Stirling be more of a Scottish currency?
They are welcome to it.

But we'll keep the pound Sterling thank you.

JFZ90 16th Jun 2014 11:29

Who did start - and then it seems delete - the last thread?

Will they say why they deleted it I wonder?

Keef 16th Jun 2014 12:16

The Pound Sterling has a curious etymology. It's from "Pfund Õsterling" - the pound of the eastern people.

There's nothing to stop iScotland using the Pound Sterling as its national currency - but the ScotNatBank won't have any influence on fiscal policy, and unless proper arrangements are made, won't be able to issue sterling notes.

While I agree it's primarily the choice of the Scottish people whether to stay in the Union or go it alone, I do worry that there's more invective and spin than genuine information being put about.

I would hope the Treasury knows which way the cash flows between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Perhaps they've told us, but I've not seen it. If it's towards Scotland, then iScotland is heading for a cashflow problem. If it's the other way, then iSalmond will have lots of cash to play with.

A A Gruntpuddock 16th Jun 2014 12:24

Don't see how they can stop any country from using the £ if they want to.

Don't some other countries use the US $?

Keef 16th Jun 2014 12:28

Exactly so.

MFC_Fly 16th Jun 2014 13:05

Well it didn't take long for my point about repetitiveness to be proven did it? At 1043 I (tongue planted firmly in cheek) wrote...


YES - We will keep the Pound Sterling.
NO - Err, no. You have been told by the leaders of all the major UK parties that will not happen. Also, the strong feeling against such a move by the people of the rUK will not allow that to happen. Feel free to use the Pound Sterling as an outside nation but not under any currency union.
And then, less than 2 hours later, this...

Originally Posted by A A Gruntpuddock (Post 8523745)
Don't see how they can stop any country from using the £ if they want to.

Don't some other countries use the US $?

:ok:

Rob Courtney 16th Jun 2014 13:06

There isnt anything to stop iScotland using the pound, what it will not have however is the bank of England as lender of last resort

ELondonPax 16th Jun 2014 13:07

"Don't see how they can stop any country from using the £ if they want to."
Using the pound is not the issue. The question is, should there be another financial crisis (and remember, a number of major financial institutions are legally registered in Edinburgh), who could or would step in? The Bank of England won't..... The lack of ultimate guarantor makes Banks in Scotland inherently risky, so cost of credit will be much higher.
Another detail. If rUK economics go in a direction that causes B of E to move interest rates, they'll pay no attention to whether that is good/bad for Scotland.

BillHicksRules 16th Jun 2014 13:34

JFZ90,

I created it and I deleted it.

It was frankly embarrassing.

I guess the Mods were right and it was too early for another Indy thread.

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 13:36


Originally Posted by Rob Courtney (Post 8523804)
There isnt anything to stop iScotland using the pound, what it will not have however is the bank of England as lender of last resort

Out of interest just how often in the bank's history has that been enacted?

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 13:40


Originally Posted by MagnusP (Post 8523589)
The pound Stirling will consist of 100 John O' Groats.

:D:D:O Like it, I'd personally favour the bawbee

mad_jock 16th Jun 2014 13:52

UK Polling Report

Here is a active ongoing poll reference site.

Just for those that missed it the current poll being sited by the yes is a panelbase poll which is a paid service which is generally used by housewifes and unemployed to get some extra cash.


NB – Panelbase/SNP question was asked after other questions that could have had a potential skewing affect
The mori professional poll was very different result.

The stupidity of trying to use such a poll as a major gain is extremely embarrassing.

500N 16th Jun 2014 13:54

"The stupidity of trying to use such a poll as a major gain is extremely embarrassing."


To anyone with half a brain and no blinkers.

Seldomfitforpurpose 16th Jun 2014 14:01


Originally Posted by Rob Courtney (Post 8523804)
There isnt anything to stop iScotland using the pound, what it will not have however is the bank of England as lender of last resort

Which makes a bit of a joke of the i in iScotland as the country will be anything but :ok:

MFC_Fly 16th Jun 2014 14:11


Originally Posted by BillHicksRules (Post 8523837)
JFZ90,

I created it and I deleted it.

It was frankly embarrassing.

I guess the Mods were right and it was too early for another Indy thread.

Some members did try to help, very early in that thread, and were slated for it :ugh:

mad_jock 16th Jun 2014 14:17

you weren't slated for it.

It was just pointed out the errors of your thinking.

Rob Courtney 16th Jun 2014 14:23


Out of interest just how often in the bank's history has that been enacted?
Not sure how often its happened and frankly dont want to trawl the net to find out but the last time was during the last crash when the bank stepped in to rescue the likes of RBS and HBOS

2008 United Kingdom bank rescue package - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could argue that England was Scotland lender of last resort when the Darien scheme went wrong, Ive reproduced the wiki entry below

Consequences of failure


The failure of the Darien colonization project has been cited as one of the motivations for the 1707 Acts of Union.[17] According to this argument, the Scottish establishment (landed aristocracy and mercantile elites) considered that their best chance of being part of a major power would be to share the benefits of England's international trade and the growth of the English Empire, so its future would have to lie in unity with England. Furthermore, Scotland's nobles were almost bankrupted by the Darien fiasco.

Some Scottish nobility petitioned Westminster to wipe out the Scottish national debt and stabilise the currency. Although the first request was not met, the second was and a Scottish Pound was given the fixed value of a shilling. Personal Scottish financial interests were also involved. Scottish commissioners had invested heavily in the Darien project and they believed that they would receive compensation for their losses. The 1707 Acts of Union, Article 14, granted £398,085 10s sterling to Scotland to offset future liability towards the English national debt.
I wonder what that £398,085 10s would be worth now and should Scotland become independent will they be paying it back at todays cost

MFC_Fly 16th Jun 2014 14:26


Originally Posted by mad_jock (Post 8523920)
you weren't slated for it.

It was just pointed out the errors of your thinking.

If that thread was still available you could clearly read what a certain senior prune wrote about me, accusing me of thinking I was superior to other members and the other unsavoury accusations! Amazing where trying to help the mods gets you.

I admit my final reply on that thread was posted in anger, was a little harsh (but accurate) summary of the events and maybe warranted a short ban from the discussion - but a 60 day ban? Lesson learned - don't try and help make the mods life easier (being a mod elsewhere I know it can be a tough job and all the help I get from the members is appreciated - not criticised, publicly or in private!) by reporting posts that breach their own rules! For daring to speak about this again this is possibly the last you will hear from me.

engineer(retard) 16th Jun 2014 14:46

Maybe the thread was canned as a mark of respect:

The Spoof : Search Continues for Missing Scotland funny satire story

Lon More 16th Jun 2014 15:02


Furthermore, Scotland's nobles were almost bankrupted by the Darien fiasco.
Sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation


this is possibly the last you will hear from me.
Nothing in his life became him like the leaving it

Seldomfitforpurpose 16th Jun 2014 15:38

Hmmmm, borrowing more to end austerity


BBC News - Scottish independence: Post-Yes Scotland 'to end austerity'


sounds like the actual start up costs are about to come to light........

radeng 16th Jun 2014 16:06

Be interesting to see the proposed costing for a Foreign Service, Embassies and Consulates, including the UN, and a Passport Office. Also for a Scottish CAA including accident investigation, a Standards Organisation equivalent to BSI including representation at ISO, IEC, CEN, CENELEC and ETSI, Radio and Telecommunications Administration including representation at ITU, CEPT and ETSI, a Scottish Met Office, representation of Scottish interests at IMO, a Railway Regulator and Railway Accident Investigation Branch, enforcement bodies for the various EU Directives such as EMC, Automotive, Medical, Radio Equipment Directive....the list is endless, it seems.

Does Scotland have its own Maritime and Coastguard Agency? I know it has its own lighthouse and buoys authority.

Then there's defence forces......

Seldomfitforpurpose 16th Jun 2014 16:19

radeng,


I suggested similar in a previous thread also to include DVLA and all its roots and branches but guess what, no one has a Scooby as to what its going to cost.


Now imagine what Swinney has to do if he is going to increase borrowing to 3% JUST to TRY to end austerity, look at where he THINKS the money is coming from to pay for his barmy plot.........................and some soft biffs are falling for this :eek:


I should add standby for your rationale to be completely discounted by the yes folk :ok:

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 16:54


Originally Posted by Rob Courtney (Post 8523928)
Not sure how often its happened and frankly dont want to trawl the net to find out but the last time was during the last crash when the bank stepped in to rescue the likes of RBS and HBOS

2008 United Kingdom bank rescue package - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could argue that England was Scotland lender of last resort when the Darien scheme went wrong, Ive reproduced the wiki entry below

Consequences of failure

I wonder what that £398,085 10s would be worth now and should Scotland become independent will they be paying it back at todays cost

Rob given the exceptional circumstances of both of those events it is not a regular occurrence then. Just out of curiosity what exactly would have happened had the BOE not been used as lender of last resort for the banking crash - exactly what impact would it have had on a. the banks involved, particularly their creditors and debtors, and b. the UK economy. There is a line of thought that says the investment banks should have been cut loose and not supported. But does anyone know with authority what the impact would have been?
In other words did we do the right thing standing by the banks involved - was there are different option that did not involve a UK govt bail out?

Tom

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 17:02


Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose (Post 8524067)
radeng,


I suggested similar in a previous thread also to include DVLA and all its roots and branches but guess what, no one has a Scooby as to what its going to cost.


Now imagine what Swinney has to do if he is going to increase borrowing to 3% JUST to TRY to end austerity, look at where he THINKS the money is coming from to pay for his barmy plot.........................and some soft biffs are falling for this :eek:

Does make you wonder seldom does it not how the UK govt got their own estimate so wrong. By what factor was it again they overestimated the startup cost by , x10 according to their own UK treasury advice. Mahoosively shocking the competency of the "bifs" working for the UK gov department that came up with that one. What is most shocking if the best experts in teh land (must by default be UK govt) with all the statistical analysis at their disposal can't accurately estimate then what value these estimates anyway. Like I say Mahoosively embarrassing for the UK govt:p:p:p




Tom

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 17:05


Originally Posted by radeng (Post 8524055)
Be interesting to see the proposed costing for a Foreign Service, Embassies and Consulates, including the UN, and a Passport Office. Also for a Scottish CAA including accident investigation, a Standards Organisation equivalent to BSI including representation at ISO, IEC, CEN, CENELEC and ETSI, Radio and Telecommunications Administration including representation at ITU, CEPT and ETSI, a Scottish Met Office, representation of Scottish interests at IMO, a Railway Regulator and Railway Accident Investigation Branch, enforcement bodies for the various EU Directives such as EMC, Automotive, Medical, Radio Equipment Directive....the list is endless, it seems.

Does Scotland have its own Maritime and Coastguard Agency? I know it has its own lighthouse and buoys authority.

Then there's defence forces......


A hamster wheel indeed, you got to laugh::p

Rob Courtney 16th Jun 2014 17:08


Rob given the exceptional circumstances of both of those events it is not a regular occurrence then. Just out of curiosity what exactly would have happened had the BOE not been used as lender of last resort for the banking crash - exactly what impact would it have had on a. the banks involved, particularly their creditors and debtors, and b. the UK economy. There is a line of thought that says the investment banks should have been cut loose and not supported. But does anyone know with authority what the impact would have been?
In other words did we do the right thing standing by the banks involved - was there are different option that did not involve a UK govt bail out?
As you know Tom Im an engineer not an economist but I would have thought if the banks went bust then everyone who had deposits in them would lose their money.
Here is something I found on the net
Why the Bank Bailouts Were Necessary | Seeking Alpha

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 17:18

Likewise Rob I'm an engineer, I find all the economic theory less than scientific despite what many claim it to be, estimates, GDP etc etc.

What I'm interested in is to hear some expert opinion on what potential there would have been to isolate the collapse to the investment banking side - protecting the less risky personal banking. Investment banking is no different from gambling and while yes I understand it ultimately funds pensions etc - the pockets do appear to be very deep in that industry. So did we really need to stand by the investment side of the banks or was that something the UK govt chose to do in the interests of maintaining London's place in the financial world. That question is really directed to the forum Rob although as always happy to hear your thoughts.

Tom

ORAC 16th Jun 2014 17:29

A Central bank as a lender of last resort is required for membership of the EU....

Seldomfitforpurpose 16th Jun 2014 17:38


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 8524148)
A Central bank as a lender of last resort is required for membership of the EU....


If that's the case then that could make things rather difficult.....

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 17:38


Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose (Post 8524021)
Hmmmm, borrowing more to end austerity


BBC News - Scottish independence: Post-Yes Scotland 'to end austerity'


sounds like the actual start up costs are about to come to light........

Isn't the UK Govt still borrowing while we are still in austerity- paying off the debt? At the end of the day like household income it is all one big pot. Just a thought.

Tom

TomJoad 16th Jun 2014 17:40


Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose (Post 8524161)
If that's the case then that could make things rather difficult.....

Oh Happy Days - the longer we remain out of the EU the better:ok:

Tom

Seldomfitforpurpose 16th Jun 2014 17:42


Originally Posted by TomJoad (Post 8524162)
Isn't the UK Govt still borrowing while we are still in austerity- paying off the debt? At the end of the day like household income it is all one big pot. Just a thought.

Tom


At 1% as opposed to the 3% being proposed post Indy, and that's in a country with an infrastructure in place and no start up costs required.


All times are GMT. The time now is 18:08.


Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.