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le Pingouin 10th Dec 2017 10:42

CS, you can believe what you want as well, but the rights and freedoms of any individual have limits, particularly when they start to impinge on other people, who also have rights and freedoms.

CoodaShooda 10th Dec 2017 11:38

So who's rights and freedoms take precedence?

De_flieger 10th Dec 2017 12:02

Both, under the new laws. You have the right to not partake in same sex marriage and disapprove of it, should that be your inclination, and other people now have the right to partake in same sex marriage and approve of it, should that be their inclination. The changes to the laws have increased the level of freedom in the country, which is a rare positive thing to come out of parliamentary action and I think on that level alone it is a good thing. It's not a situation where your freedoms are taken away in order to give them to someone else.

Equally, you cannot discriminate as a (non-religious, commercial) service provider to someone on the basis of their sexuality, and they cannot discriminate against you based on yours, but this hasn't changed since the passage of the same-sex marriage legalisation bill.

le Pingouin 10th Dec 2017 12:41

CS, a pretty good sign is when you stop someone doing something or deny them something as the result of your beliefs then you need a strong justification.

CoodaShooda 10th Dec 2017 21:16

Then why does the Marriage Act only allow existing celebrants the right to refuse to conduct SSM but not allow celebrants appointed in the future to similarly act on their beliefs?

parabellum 11th Dec 2017 00:00


You have the right to not partake in same sex marriage and disapprove of it, should that be your inclination,

Sadly, here in Victoria, seven year old children, nor their parents have the right to disapprove of anything 'same sex'. The Safe Schools programme, the product of a Marxist cell within the LGBTQI+ community and based in Sydney University has been made mandatory in Victorian state schools and children as young as seven are expected to act out 'same sex' charades and the parents are in breach of State law if they try to protect their children from this by removing them from that class. These children haven't even reached puberty yet, let alone the age of consent.



parabellum, hang on a minute. You worry about rumours of over the top claims from a small group of fanatics as if they're some sort of official policy? This has nothing to do with SSM and is the sort of FUD spread by those who opposed it.
Sorry, nothing small about the groups fostering the 'Safe Schools' programme, these are the ones who claim the marriage equality bill now gives them the right to push the rest of their agenda, an agenda widely poo pooed and denied by the same sex activists, possibly yourself too L pe? but which is already very much out there in Victorian schools and some other states as well.

le Pingouin 11th Dec 2017 03:31

CS, you'd have to ask the politicians who negotiated the Bill what their thinking was - presumably a compromise so as not to disadvantage anyone who is currently a civil celebrant. New civil celebrants will be signing up knowing the new Marriage Act applies.

le Pingouin 11th Dec 2017 03:49

parabellum, what has Safe Schools got to do with marriage equality?!? About as much as opposite-sex marriage had to do with the deplorable school chaplaincy program. Both of those were touted by the same people.... One doesn't lead to the other.

So when do you think kids discover they aren't straight? Heaven help any kids associated with you who aren't straight. Who are you really "protecting"? Your kids or yourself from having to explain that LGBTQI+ exist and should be treated the same as everyone else?

parabellum 11th Dec 2017 04:05


what has Safe Schools got to do with marriage equality?!?

To most people nothing at all but the hard left cell within the LGBTQI+ community have always had an agenda that didn't stop at SSM and now they are preparing to continue with it, SSM was only ever stage one to them.


Heaven help any kids associated with you who aren't straight.
I think we can leave the personal stuff out and stick to the facts.



So when do you think kids discover they aren't straight?

So how about we wait until they are at least old enough to understand what homosexuality is, puberty at least, age of consent even better?

le Pingouin 11th Dec 2017 04:27

SSM is not an enabler for anything other than SSM. It's not a necessary step in a progression on a secret list so how can it be "feared" as a "thin end of the wedge"? Only in the minds of some such as yourself apparently.

My 6 year old is old enough to understand that two people can love each other in age appropriate detail. He has as much idea of what his Mum & Dad might get up to as to what his uncle & his partner might.

Age of consent? Really?!? You really are for protecting your own sensibilities and not protecting the mental health of children.

CoodaShooda 11th Dec 2017 04:33


New civil celebrants will be signing up knowing the new Marriage Act applies
So those with conflicted beliefs need not (or will not) apply? So much for diversity.

I don't have a problem with people of the same sex getting married, if that is what they want to do.

I do have a problem with people being told they have to acquiesce to this regardless of their own thoughts on the subject or face action under our discrimination laws.

Human rights should include the right to say NO without fear of sanction or bullying.

Causing personal or physical harm to someone who has a different mindset is another issue completely and should be proscribed. (Upsetting a snowflake's feelings does not constitute personal or physical harm in this context.)

dr dre 11th Dec 2017 04:34

parabellumís argument is basically the same as used by the NO campaign in the postal survey. Instead of debating the real issue (allowing consenting adults tthe freedom to marry a partner of their choosing) they obfuscate the issue by linking in unrelated things like safe schools, which has nothing to do with same sex marriage.

Safe schools is an anti gay bullying program. If you were in touch with students of high school age youíd know times really havenít changed since the youthful days of this forum. Children who are perceived as gay are bullied and beaten up, and yeah itís quite alright for for a government to try and prevent this.

http://www.education.vic.gov.au/abou...irect=1#link56

dr dre 11th Dec 2017 04:36

parabellumís argument is basically the same as used by the NO campaign in the postal survey. Instead of debating the real issue (allowing consenting adults tthe freedom to marry a partner of their choosing) they obfuscate the issue by linking in unrelated things like safe schools, which has nothing to do with same sex marriage.

Safe schools is an anti gay bullying program. If you were in touch with students of high school age youíd know times really havenít changed since the youthful days of most of the posters of this forum. Children who are perceived as gay are bullied and beaten up, and yeah itís quite alright for for a government to try and prevent this.

http://www.education.vic.gov.au/abou...irect=1#link56



I do have a problem with people being told they have to acquiesce to this regardless of their own thoughts on the subject or face action under our discrimination laws.
What are your feelings then on celebrants who refuse to marry Christians or mixed race couples?

le Pingouin 11th Dec 2017 04:51

CS, a civil celebrant is effectively a public servant - you don't get to pick and choose which laws apply. Existing civil celebrants are allowed to discriminate, personally I don't think they should be able to, but that's the law we now have. New civil celebrants will know what the law is and know they have to act accordingly if they want to be a celebrant, otherwise they'll have to seek alternative employment.

CoodaShooda 11th Dec 2017 05:27


What are your feelings then on celebrants who refuse to marry Christians or mixed race couples?
They should have that right. There are plenty of other celebrants out there to choose from.

What are your views about the Catholic Church refusing to marry non-Catholics?


they have to act accordingly if they want to be a celebrant, otherwise they'll have to seek alternative employment.
Isn't that a bit totalitarian?

Laws are artificial constructs to provide a framework for a society to operate. They can be changed at the whim of the legislature. They aren't holy and immutable writ.

Surely, in this enlightened, so-called educated age, we should be allowing greater freedom of thought rather than introducing greater restrictions?

parabellum 11th Dec 2017 07:25

Le P - not sure if you are smoking or drinking, what is for certain is that you are in denial, as most of the militant 'Vote Yes' camp are and you have dr Dre for company.

De_flieger 11th Dec 2017 07:34


Then why does the Marriage Act only allow existing celebrants the right to refuse to conduct SSM but not allow celebrants appointed in the future to similarly act on their beliefs?
It's pretty straightforward - civil celebrants are expected to uphold the laws of the land. The laws have changed, so in future, those applying to become civil celebrants are expected to comply with the new laws. Religious celebrants have exceptions to those laws. Existing celebrants have exceptions to those laws. Those who wish to apply to become a civil celebrant but simultaneously not comply with the laws that apply at the time they apply are free to either operate within the framework of religious exemptions, or find other employment. A pilot who 70 years ago could turn up to work after a big night reeking of booze and explain that he flew it better after a few drinks might have been acceptable then, but the rules and society have changed and that same pilot would fail his Drug and Alcohol Screening Test nowadays, and he would be out of a job regardless of his personal beliefs. If you want the duties and protections of a government-recognised role, whether celebrant, policeman or pilot, you have to comply with the government rules.

Those with conflicted beliefs need not apply? Well if the role involves carrying out related tasks, and the laws specify how they can or cannot be carried out, then those who act on those conflicted beliefs cannot. A new civil celebrant is perfectly able to think that same sex marriage is wrong, and continue in his role, but when he refuses to carry out same sex marriages that is in violation of the laws relating to his government-sanctioned position. A hypothetical policeman can think that heroin should be legalised, without a problem, but when he is taking it or selling it, that is a violation of the laws that relate to his role. Someone cannot apply to the Police Force, sit in their interview and explain that they believe heroin is a benefit to society and they will continue to sell it, and still expect to get the job.


Surely, in this enlightened, so-called educated age, we should be allowing greater freedom of thought rather than introducing greater restrictions?
That's exactly what the new laws do. They remove a previous restriction that treated same-sex couples as second-class citizens, allowing them to marry if that is their desire. They don't make any mention of school education or any of a host of other unrelated red herrings - education is a State responsibility, not Federal, and the implementation of whatever programs may or may not be put in are State issues, and vary greatly between states. There are a lot of red herrings used to distract from the key issue, but those around the Safe Schools program seem to have been largely discredited - for example here: Safe Schools and same-sex marriage: All the myths debunked.

Hempy 11th Dec 2017 08:46

Watchout boys, the homovirus is coming to infect you :rolleyes:

le Pingouin 11th Dec 2017 10:19

CS, totalitarian? Hardly. Public servants don't get to illegally discriminate.

parabellum, given the result of the recent SSM survey I don't think I'm in a minority in not accepting the paranoid delusions of the "no" campaign - the attempted linking of SSM with Safe Schools, etc. Who is in denial?

Hempy
, too late, my family are carriers. It's the homophobia one that's a concern - it's extremely dangerous.

Ethel the Aardvark 11th Dec 2017 15:29

Is it just me or does anyone else raise a smile when the likes of high and flighty and parabellum get all worked up and paranoid about the SSM decision. makes it even more sweeter


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