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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

parabellum 26th Dec 2012 06:26

It used to be 44 years of paying the monthly National Insurance contribution to qualify for the State pension in UK, this has now been reduced to 30 years, could it be that the average working life of 'New Arrivals' is estimated at 30 years? (They don't have to have a job, just be registered within the system!:mad:).

After paying the full 44 years by 2006 I became eligible for the State pension but it remains frozen at 2006 rates, although index linking applies in many countries Australia is not one, I believe the Australian system offer proper reciprocal rights but the UK government are happy to continue to steal from their expat pensioners who have paid and worked all the way to retirement and still pay UK tax on UK pensions.

parabellum 26th Dec 2012 06:30

Andu - you are correct, 44 years, now 30, for a full pension, pro rata for any period less than the minimum requirement.

Clare Prop 26th Dec 2012 08:10

There's no such thing as "free" healthcare though, is there, really? We all pay for it.
I wonder if it is worth chasing up 10 years of UK NI contributions...

Worrals in the wilds 26th Dec 2012 09:47


Mr Nabha said government information campaigns in source and transit countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan were having little impact and trusted delegations of community leaders should be sent instead to spread the message.
Let's think laterally. :E Who would we like to send to all those happening places? It could be cheap at the price...:suspect:
I propose Rudd, Thomson, Slipper and Hanson Young for starters. They wouldn't last five minutes in a Cloncurry pub so Afghanistan should be a foregone conclusion...:}

I wonder if it is worth chasing up 10 years of UK NI contributions...
It's probably worth having a squizz. Think of all the thousands sitting in 'dead' super accounts that people never bothered to chase up. On that note, from Andu's article...

Here in Britain, the Conservatives make much of their determination to cut welfare, as if out-of-work benefits were the heart of the government spending problem. But in fact, in the medium and long term, it is the state benefits that working people think of as a right that present a far more serious dilemma. The reality is that our ever-rising state pension and entirely free health care system are as unsustainable as social security and Medicare in the US. It is not going to be possible for the NHS, paid for by general taxation, to offer world-class modern medical provision with its never-ending advances and innovations into the indefinite future.
That's a really good point. I do believe in welfare, for people who can't afford basic healthcare or can't be employed. I've seen the alternative in India (where people who slip through the cracks and fight with their rellies live in cardboard boxes and die in the street from preventable causes :sad:) and I wouldn't want that here. However, we've all gotten used to big wads of government cash for things we could afford to pay for.

I've had private health insurance since I could afford to pay for it. I know enough nurses to believe it's a good idea. However, I'm constantly amazed by the number of high earning people who won't subscribe; they believe public health care is their inalieable right. When it sucks or there's a waiting list, they whinge. These are youngish people who earn more than me and could easily afford their own insurance, but won't spring the cash. For the oldies it's a little different. They were told there would be pensions, 'free' health care and money for all. That's just not the case any more (and probably never was). Welfare should be a safety net for the poor and unfortunate, not an automatic entitlement. If it meant we could then have a proper NDIS scheme so the truly unfortunate victims of accidents and disease could receive proper state sponsored care and rehab rather than languishing in nursing homes, then IMHO it would be a fair price to pay.

Heretic, me? :}:}

Clare Prop 26th Dec 2012 11:25

:D re the Cloncurry Pub bit! :D:D

RJM 26th Dec 2012 11:56


One could argue that the aged pension payable in the UK is a right. Those who have worked have paid for that right.
Sisemen - If there were no aged pension at all, you could always save or invest for your retirement, or retire to live with your extended family...

I know that it's economically illiterate to suggest even higher levels of personal savings than we have in Aust now, but I've never understood why it's such a bad thing. The banks can still use your money, as can your investment target.

As to living with grumpy grandpa in the back room, it may be uncomfortable, but surely it's something like fagging. You put up with it in the knowledge that one day it will be you living rent free in the back room complaining about everything and your kids will just have to put up with you.

For those without savings or families, there'd always be the workhouse of course...

Vote Very Conservative - You know it makes sense.

Fubaar 26th Dec 2012 21:43

Western Europe, the US, UK and Australia of late resemble the widow of a wealthy man keeping up appearances at all costs. She's broke, the once grand mansion falling down around her, the garden overgrown with weeds, she's seriously in hock to the grocer, the butcher and every tradesman in town. However, so far, maybe in memory of her late husband, they're allowing her to rack up the bills and tug the forelock respectfully when she ventures down town.

But unlike the impoverished dowager who won't admit she's broke, those nations I've listed above won't conveniently soon die, (or at least, not without a lot of pain for a lot of people). For those nations, the day will come when the international borrowers, the equivalent of the grocer, the butcher and all those tradies will say, "sorry gov, we simply can't provide you with any more credit because you don't produce anything anymore to ever be able to repay the money".

My question is: has anyone in Canberra, either in parliament or in the press gallery, ever commented on the fact (for fact it is) that one day, this nation will have to face that rather stark reality?

Andu 27th Dec 2012 03:02

Am I the only one who fears that Tony Abbott won't have the cojones to wind back the giveaways and handouts as much as they need to be wound back? His plan for full pay, how ever much that is, for women taking time off to have a baby, is not reassuring, even alarming, to me.

A good step in the right direction would be to dismantle completely the Aboriginal "Industry" and declare that all Australians, irrespective of their ethnicity, will be treated exactly the same, with no financial or other benefits going to people with Aboriginal and Torres Straits Islander blood that aren't also available to all other Australians.

Should that ever come to pass, (highly, even extremely, unlikely, I accept), it would be interesting to see how many very fair-skinned "aboriginals" dropped the pretence. By tacitly expecting the same standards from them as we do from all other Australians, it would also be the best thing we could do for real aborigines.

CoodaShooda 27th Dec 2012 03:31

I think we will see the federal libs go down the same path as Newman in Queensland and Mills (who?) in the NT.

Cut hard and cut fast.

It's the standard electoral cycle. Cut in the first year while blaming the former government. Consolidate in the second (and third of a 4 year cycle). Spend up big in the final year leading to the election.

If Newman follows the cycle, a lot of the heat may have gone out of Queensland come the federal election, which will not help labor.

The NT, having had a more recent election and with massive government hurt imposed on the locals since then, is likely to be interesting.

At present, we have a Country Liberal representing the Darwin urban seat and labor representing the bush seat.

At the last local election, labor held up in Darwin but collapsed in its traditional bush seats.

It is therefore possible we will see labor pick up the urban seat on the back of the Country Liberal's local performance and possibly pick up both seats.

It is also possible that labor could pick up both Senate seats, rather then perpetuate the 1-all results of the past 40 years.

If labor don't do well in the NT at the federal election, it will be because the electorate views the Gillard government as being completely unsupportable.

RJM 27th Dec 2012 04:08

I tend to agree, Cooda.

I just hope that the Canberra press gallery and the MSM minus News Ltd have learned their lesson and don't either immediately jump on Abbott, or worse, start blindly supporting whatever leadership emerges from the wreckage of Gillard's government, on the grounds that it's not the AbbottAbbottAbbott they've been trained to hate.

Abbott and co wil have a hard enough job without Gillard's former corgi pack snapping at their heels.

CoodaShooda 27th Dec 2012 09:58

I'm afraid the leopards won't change their spots, RJM.

We are seeing it here, where the editorial policy of our local Murdoch rag is in the hands of an ardent labor supporter. Everything it prints about the new government is being presented in the most negative possible light.

(Which is actually overkill, as the government is achieving enough negatives without the need for embroidery.)

But there's no chance of the Country Liberals getting their message across with the ABC and the newspaper being the main purveyors of local "news".

Although it was quite amusing when, after several weeks of "the CLP is ruining the NT and no-one will be able to afford to live here" headlines and editorialising, a public demonstration was advertised heavily through the NT News and attracted a whole 75 angry Territorians to the steps of Parliament House.

The demonstrators then realised that there was no real organisation to the event and sat in a circle criticising the organisers.

Worrals in the wilds 27th Dec 2012 12:10


Although it was quite amusing when, after several weeks of "the CLP is ruining the NT and no-one will be able to afford to live here" headlines and editorialising, a public demonstration was advertised heavily through the NT News and attracted a whole 75 angry Territorians to the steps of Parliament House.
That's not a protest, that's a sewing circle. We did it better :\.

If Newman follows the cycle, a lot of the heat may have gone out of Queensland come the federal election, which will not help labor.
Dunno about that. A lot of Qld conservatives are very peed off about the job cuts, particularly because the ALP PS flunkies are still hanging in there on fat salaries.

Being in a strange position I mix in all three circles and plenty of Brisbane Libs are blaming the banjo-playing Nats for needless cuts. The Nats are blaming the city Libs and accusing them of deserting the bush. The ALP's Magnificent Seven are just staying quiet and playing the unemployment card for all it's worth; and it's a good card. Katter's just sticking with the hat. :cool:

What's not being said by either federal party is that the federal APS is being cut to ribbons by the current government. I don't know why the Libs aren't pushing this; my only conclusion is that they have worse cuts planned. :uhoh:

Should that ever come to pass, (highly, even extremely, unlikely, I accept), it would be interesting to see how many very fair-skinned "aboriginals" dropped the pretence. By tacitly expecting the same standards from them as we do from all other Australians, it would also be the best thing we could do for real aborigines.
I would like to see more services for remote Australians, regardless of race. Many of the issues touted as indigenous issues are actually remote issues; healthcare, education, employment and things to do being four of them. Whether whitefella or blackfella, people living in towns like Thagomindah or Cooktown have real trouble accessing basic services city people take for granted. If we as a nation want these towns to continue (and if we want to keep buying local beef, fish and sugar) we should be prepared to accept that basic services in remote areas cost money to run, and we should pay for them. Our reward? Fresh fruit and vegetables, and the Outback. What's Australia without the outback?

Otherwise we should sacrifice those towns and the produce they supply and be honest, and say we don't want them anymore :sad:. I've travelled a bit and met many people black and white. Outside the city agitator groups, most of them want the same thing; jobs, education for the kiddies and a future for their community. What you hear from the city agitators isn't necessarily what the greater group thinks, any more than what the lefto pinko greens like SHY say is truly representative of the people of Sydney.

RJM 27th Dec 2012 15:15


The demonstrators then realised that there was no real organisation to the event and sat in a circle criticising the organisers.
Thanks, Cooda. Best laugh I've had in a week.

parabellum 28th Dec 2012 02:28

Clare Prop - When you reach pensionable age, or just before, you should apply, make sure you have your National Insurance number, you will, I think, get a pro rata pension for your ten years.

The 'free' medical care in the UK is paid for by Income Tax, even for those who don't pay it! Private insurance is recommended.

Private pension funds in the UK, for individuals, were simply not allowed for quite a long time, I think it wasn't until the eighties that the equivalent of Salary Sacrifice was allowed, tax free up to 17.5% of basic salary

sisemen 28th Dec 2012 03:02

This site will tell you all you need to know about UK State Pensions.

Whilst the pension is frozen as at the date it is claimed (when living in Oz) the beauty of it is that it is not means tested. So, even if you are a self-funded retiree in Oz you can still claim any UK pension that you are entitled to.


https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-...d/how-to-claim

RJM 28th Dec 2012 21:25

That explains all those ageing Pommie plutocrats clogging up our better resorts. :}

parabellum 29th Dec 2012 00:53

I dream of being a plutocrat! ;)

CoodaShooda 29th Dec 2012 02:28

I dream of being able to take the missus to one of our better resorts. :{

sisemen 29th Dec 2012 06:56

I dream..............

Worrals in the wilds 29th Dec 2012 09:41

Remember the Groucho Marx quote: 'I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member' :cool::}.

I dream of being able to dive in Queensland without signing more paperwork than I did to buy property, and then being practically led around on a leash like an intro to scuba tourist. It's not the operators' fault; I've read the Qld Government WH&S requirements they have to comply with. It's amazing anyone gets in the water. The amount of government paperwork any business has to complete to do any commercial recreational activity more exciting than sitting in the coffee shop is enough to give you the Bends. :uhoh:

No wonder anyone who wants to do anything more interesting than 15m glorified snorkels in a conga line is going down south or overseas. :sad:

Rant over :O.

sisemen 29th Dec 2012 14:43

The "world's best treasurer" has popped up to give the Americans his very useful advice on their current financial problems.

Apparently, even though Obummer has been in power for 4 years it's not his fault - it's all the fault of the "Tea Party". You know, the small right wing section of the Republican Party that appear to have immense influence on how Obummer runs the country.

This is probably a foretaste of what we can expect in the run up to the election. It's not Labor's fault that we are in such a financial mess; it's not the profligate spending by Gillard and Krudd it's obviously down to the nasty Coalition for talking the country down.

And do you know what really hurts? We, the taxpayer, are shelling out good money for this turkey.

Captain Sand Dune 30th Dec 2012 19:11


AUSTRALIA'S Grand Mufti Ibrahim Abu Mohamed has met with the hierarchy of Hamas, the Palestinian party listed by the Gillard government as a terrorist organisation.
Last week Dr Mohamed led an Australian delegation of Muslim scholars to the Gaza Strip, where they met Hamas senior political leader Ismail Haniyeh.
Mr Haniyeh, who has been pushing for the US and the EU to remove Hamas from its terrorist watchlist, last year described former al-Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden as "a Muslim and Arabic warrior" while condemning the US for killing the terrorist leader.
Dr Mohamed, who has been styled as a moderate since taking the top Australian Muslim post, last week expressed his happiness at being in Gaza, describing it as the land of pride and martyrdom.
"I am pleased to stand on the land of jihad to learn from its sons and I have the honour to be among the people of Gaza where the weakness always becomes strength, the few becomes many and the humiliation turns into pride," he told local news agencies.
"We came here in order to learn from Gaza. As I said in my speech, we will make the stones, trees, and people of Gaza talk, in order to learn steadfastness, sacrifice, and the defence of one's rights from them.
"We feel like we are on cloud nine. We feel like we are on top of the world." Images of the visit were shown on local TV and hailed as a PR coup by Hamas, the fanatical ruling party in Gaza.
Attempts to contact Dr Mohamed, who has insisted radical Muslim extremists in Australia need to be corrected, were unsuccessful.
According to the Department of Foreign Affairs, Australia has listed Hamas as a terrorist entity subject to financial sanctions since 2001.
The military wing of Hamas is also listed as a terrorist organisation under the Criminal Code Act 1995.
In July 2009, Prime Minister Julia Gillard, then deputy prime minister, said: "Hamas obviously is a terrorist organisation that has been engaged in violent actions against the Israeli people."
Ms Gillard was unavailable to comment.
Foreign Minister Bob Carr said through a spokesman that the trip had nothing to do with the government.
"It's up to them to explain their own views and travel plans," the spokesman said.
"We have no diplomatic engagement with Hamas."
Last week's delegation, described by the media as one of several "delegations of solidarity", also visited the Ministry of Islamic Endowments and met with religious scholars and sheikhs.
Anyone like to explain why non-Muslim Australia should not be concerned by this unabashed association of a "moderate" (albeit self-styled) Muslim leader with a recognised terrorist group? I sincerely hope ASIO and/or the Federal Police take more than a passing interest in Dr Mohamed's activities when he returns from "the land of pride and martyrdom".

dat581 30th Dec 2012 22:02

I would be great if he isn't a citizen so re entry into Australia can now be barred on character grounds.

Andu 31st Dec 2012 04:28


I would like to see more services for remote Australians, regardless of race. Many of the issues touted as indigenous issues are actually remote issues; healthcare, education, employment and things to do being four of them. Whether whitefella or blackfella, people living in towns like Thagomindah or Cooktown have real trouble accessing basic services city people take for granted. If we as a nation want these towns to continue (and if we want to keep buying local beef, fish and sugar) we should be prepared to accept that basic services in remote areas cost money to run, and we should pay for them. Our reward? Fresh fruit and vegetables, and the Outback. What's Australia without the outback?
I would have to agree with you 100% on those comments, WitW. Such measures used to exist (fuel/transport subsidies, bonded school teachers and doctors who were sent to the less attractive parts of the country as part repayment of the government scholarships they won were just some examples of this) - until the Whitlam government, knowing there were never any votes to be had for them in the Bush, dumped them all.

Clare Prop 31st Dec 2012 06:08

Presumably the "Grand Mufti" is a government appointment or at least approved/recognised by Canberra. (If not who on earth "picks" him?) so if so then this is the mighty unelected Bob Carr's problem.

The Greens have made no secret how they feel about Israel so hardly likely to hear this government speak out against Hamas or any other terrorist organisation.

This government are apparently welcoming members of the LTTE, who they don't consider a terrorist group, as "refugees" despite the concerns of the Sri Lankan High Commissioner. I don't suppose Bowen/JG's vocab stretches to the difference between prosecution and persecution, so long as you are "Fleeing" from something....

Worrals in the wilds 31st Dec 2012 07:16

Clare, FYI...
New Australia's Grand Mufti appointed | SBS World News
I think it's more like being the head of a Protestant church, where you get elected or appointed by a bunch of senior church people. Unlike Cardinal Pell (for example) he doesn't officially represent all Muslims in Australia, they're not as structured as the Micks or CofE. According to that article the position has no government standing.

Agree re Hamas.

...so long as you are "Fleeing" from something....
Reminds me of the Terry Pratchett quote from Feet of Clay:
"Besides, while it was true that a lot of people came to Ankh-Morpork because it was a city of opportunity, sometimes it was the opportunity not to be hung, skewered or dismantled for whatever crimes you'd left behind in the mountains".
:E

Buster Hyman 31st Dec 2012 13:10

I lament the fact that no party or Pollie shows any real vision or ambition. After watching recent shows about the Moon landings, it saddens me to think that we no longer have Statesmen that want to do good for the country. Instead we have career oriented, point scorers that are only interested in importing or bribing for votes. Why we pander & cow tail to minority groups is beyond me. Nobody cares to look at the big picture anymore and, as a country, it will be our children who suffer the inevitable consequences of such folly!

Captain Sand Dune 31st Dec 2012 20:53

Yup!! But on the bright side, 2013 brings us the opportunity to vote Juliar out!:ok:

criticalmass 1st Jan 2013 00:57

Captain Sand Dune, how right you are! :D

I stayed up for the new year at home and heard the fireworks and cheering and said to myself "thus the year of the burning of the red witch begins."

It was a very comforting thought on which to end my day and retire to the arms of Morpheus.

sisemen 1st Jan 2013 01:06

Mine is only one vote in a very safe Liberal seat but I am SO looking forward to giving my opinion on Gillard/Krudd and the mess that they have gotten us into.


Kowtow, which is borrowed from ku tu in Mandarin Chinese, is the act of deep respect shown by kneeling and bowing so low as to have one's head touching the ground.Kowtow came into English in the early 19th century to describe the bow itself, but its meaning soon shifted to describe any abject submission or grovelling
Sorry Buster it's the pedant in me that makes me do it :}

Buster Hyman 1st Jan 2013 02:00


Sorry Buster it's the pedant in me that makes me do it http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif
What can I say? Apple thinks it knows best...:hmm:

Fliegenmong 1st Jan 2013 02:06

Cabinet papers from 30 yrs ago
 
Love the part about the second Sydney airport!! :D

Archives reveal more about US missile test plans - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

parabellum 1st Jan 2013 02:14

Saw on TV this morning that Keating, when Finance Minister, wanted to introduce GST!:}

Clare Prop 1st Jan 2013 03:21

And Bob'awke thinks we should abolish the states to achieve the Fabian dream of one Big Brother (or sister...shudder!) watching over us all.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

There is no federal government without the States. If anything has to go it should be the farce that is Canberra.

Isn't it time he retired? Someone sit him in a rocking chair with a copy of the constitution, it's about time he read that instead of Orwell.

Worrals in the wilds 1st Jan 2013 04:53


And Bob'awke thinks we should abolish the states to achieve the Fabian dream of one Big Brother (or sister...shudder!) watching over us all.
I think that's been the dream of every Australian PM and federal Treasurer since federation. Ain't gonna make it happen though. :E

Watching the three pollies and fawning crowds at Woodford Folk Festival on TV and Facebook has been very enlightening; it reminds me never to go near the bloody thing. None of them ever seem to want to rock Soundwave, of course it's a slightly tougher crowd in every respect :cool::}.

Maybe Gillard, Hawke and Turnbull could form a band...

Captain Sand Dune 1st Jan 2013 07:38

What is it about ex-pollies of the Labour persuasion that compels them to get their heads on the telly as often as possible to tell us how good they were? Then again, why does our meeja let 'em?

Buster Hyman 1st Jan 2013 07:57

In fairness CSD, if I see Malcolm Fraser popping up with his 2 cents worth again, I'll scream!

Considering they are on the public payroll still, I'd be happy if they just accepted that with thanks & STFU!!! :mad:

Captain Sand Dune 1st Jan 2013 09:17

And Amen to that!

I reckon Malcolm has turned left in his old age.

Takan Inchovit 1st Jan 2013 10:03

Could be on to something here, dementia leads to Labor. Although, to be fair ... oh never mind. :E

Worrals in the wilds 1st Jan 2013 12:27

Years ago a friend of mine proposed starting a National Nuisance 'award' scheme, similar but inverse to the National Living Treasure award scheme for successful and respected Australians.

It was for people who;
1. failed to recognise their increasing irrelevance to public debate because they were senile / boring / deadset stupid,

2. People who insisted on commenting about issues that were completely removed from their expertise (such as supermodels waxing lyrical about agricultural practices or pollies yakking on about Kabuki theatre), and

3. People who obviously spent every waking hour either appearing in media stories or organising their next appearance in a media story. :zzz:

Once a person was declared a National Nuisance they would be prohibited from appearing in any media article or reality tv show, going on the lecture circuit, becoming a professional new shopping centre opener and all the other stuff faded media tarts feed from. :ok:

We came up with quite a comprehensive list, including Hawke, Fraser, Hanson, Rudd, Qld's Peter Beattie and Jim Soorley. We also had a celebutard list that started with Lara Bingle. :E

I reckon it could work. :}


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