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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

500N 10th Jul 2014 08:37


So were you an economic immigrant or a political one?
Neither, father seconded out of here, they were thinking of / decided to stay, On leavig school I came out and decided to stay whether they went back or not, joined the military 12 months later which got me automatic citizenship in 6 months which meant the rest of the family could stay anyway.

Takan Inchovit 10th Jul 2014 09:38

Titanic and dinosaurs, there is something about Clives actions that just keeps reminding me of those two words. Just cant quite put my finger on it.

Worrals in the wilds 10th Jul 2014 09:54

Maybe the fact that he was Joh Bjelke-Petersen's campaign director for many years. :hmm: It explains some of the strange sense of deja-vous...:}

Palmer joined the Queensland division of the National Party of Australia in 1974, having been influenced by the policies of Joh Bjelke-Petersen, Premier of Queensland at the time.[40] From the early 1980s onwards, he was involved in state politics, serving as the National Party's campaign director during the 1983 state election and as media spokesman during its 1986 election campaign, both of which were successful.[41] The following year, Palmer was a supporter of the "Joh for Canberra" campaign, which unsuccessfully attempted to get Bjelke-Petersen elected as Prime Minister of Australia at the 1987 federal election.
Clive Palmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/...6eae24ab_b.jpg
Memory jogger, anyone? :E
Of course Joh had some smart, astute pollies behind him; Hinze, Knox and Edwards among others, who used to belt him over the head whenever he went too birko. Clive's got...Clive. And some enthusiastic amateurs who are completely beholden to him and so far seem to defer to his every whim. :eek:

bosnich71 10th Jul 2014 09:54

Hempy .... " I'll sign off from this thread" etc. If only !

bosnich71 10th Jul 2014 10:07

Parabellum .... most of my family are quite normal, academic wise that is, tradies etc. but one of my brothers also got knocked back as did his Son. I do have another brother who, funnily enough, is also into Quantum Physics of some sort but he remains in an academic bubble somewhere in U.K. As my elder brother said to me, " he may be extremely intelligent but he had to ask me for help in blowing up his bicycle tyre one day as he couldn't work out how to do it himself".....
With regard to the non successful white applicants of the Keating years, an ex Keating govt. minister did admit some years later that the Keating administration had a policy of discrimination against European applicants.
Could you imagine the howls from the likes of SHY, Milne,Ethel and Hempy, for that matter, if Abbott and his merry men ever admitted to anything resembling that ?

bosnich71 10th Jul 2014 10:11

Worrals ... it's interesting to read Lambie's c.v. and realise that she would have sold her soul to any of the major parties just to get into a cushy number an any parliament in the country. It was only after the so called major parties told her she was a p**t and a waste of space that Palmer realised that she was just what he was looking for.

Pinky the pilot 10th Jul 2014 10:21


Could you imagine the howls from the likes of SHY, Milne,Ethel and Hempy, for that matter, if Abbott and his merry men ever admitted to anything resembling that ?
Certainly could, bos; Fact is, the howls would probably be deafening!
However, seeing that those comments were made by one of the `true believers`... yeah well sort of anyway..the discrimination would be perfectly justifiable!

Labor will always adhere to some of the Socialist ideals:mad: and the unswerving belief that all they do or say is correct, writ in stone, and any other view is heretical or simply false!

BTW; I`m going to stick my neck out and suggest that some (if not all) of the apologists for Labor on this thread have been or are Labor staffers. Unless I`ve missed a few pages, (quite likely) no-one else has ever suggested this.:hmm:

Worrals in the wilds 10th Jul 2014 10:29

She presented on The Project tonight. Postives; she stuck to her guns and sounded reasonably (well kind of) coherent. She stumbled a couple of times but didn't back down under fire. Negatives; not much policy. I couldn't quite work out what she was standing for, apart from shoving it up the Abbott government. Now I'm all for shoving it up the Abbott government :E, but for policy reasons rather than the intrinsic joy of shoving.

All in all I thought that she didn't disgrace herself, it can't be easy being suddenly thrown into the spotlight with no media training/party background and good on her for having a go (whatever her reasons are) but as a long term political stayer? Personally I have my doubts.

Many Australians (including all of us at one point or another) have bemoaned the rise of the 'professional' politician. We've all gotten sick of party apparatchiks who can do nothing more than spin the party line in between photo ops and pressers, whatever that party may be. With Palmer and his band of merry men/women maybe we've now gotten the pollies we deserve; the 'normal people' pollies we unwittingly wished for. If so, karma's a bitch. Politically it should be an interesting (if unproductive :ugh:) few years and maybe come the next election we'll be happy to see the apparatchiks back in business. Dunno.

Unless I`ve missed a few pages, (quite likely) no-one else has ever suggested this.:hmm:
Regularly. :rolleyes:;)
I could stick my neck out and suggest that the majority of conservative posters work for the Liberal Party or their associated conservative bretheren and have some sort of post quota to fill. However, I doubt that it would be the case.

Truth is that this is a pleasant little political backwater on the internet river, and IME neither major party has the money or staff to infiltrate every single website that discusses Australian politics. I'm sure that several regular posters have party affiliation, but that's because people who are interested in politics tend to 1. discuss politics in person and online (after all their friends have threatened to unfriend them if they keep it up :O) and 2. join the party they identify with so they can play a part in the circus. Party people talk about politics because they're interested in politics, not because they're party people. The party doesn't have to ask them to do so. :)

Pinky the pilot 10th Jul 2014 10:38


Many Australians (including all of us at one point or another) have bemoaned the rise of the 'professional' politician. We've all gotten sick of party apparatchiks who can do nothing more than spin the party line in between photo ops and pressers, whatever that party may be.
Worrals; Agreed.


With Palmer and his band of merry men/women maybe we've now gotten the pollies we deserve; the 'normal people' pollies we unwittingly wished for
Disagree most vehemently! No matter what, the Australian people deserve better that that!:mad: IMHO Palmer and his ilk misrepresented themselves. (better not say what I was originally going to)

Suffice it to say; What you now see is definitely not what was originally represented. The complete opposite if anything.


Regularly.
I could stick my neck out and suggest that the majority of conservative posters work for the Liberal Party or their associated conservative bretheren and have some sort of post quota to fill. However, I doubt that it would be the case.
Ooh Worrals; I have gained the distinct feeling that should we ever meet, we should definitely exclude politics from our discussions.
Otherwise the scorebook will show me as `Retired; hurt!`:}:eek::D

500N 10th Jul 2014 11:22

I'd love us all to sit down in a Pub having a drink.

Of all the lefties around, at least you can talk to Worrals.

parabellum 10th Jul 2014 11:52

I have a theory about Worrals! :)
Going back a couple of years and reading Worrals posts she was about as right of centre as the rest of us, well, she posted that way, anyway.
Our regular lefties all got the chop and for a while, particularly after last September, Worrals has slowly become a trade unionist and gone quite left!


This transformation was done in order to keep this thread alive and interesting, Worrals has the intellect, is very well read and can articulate sufficiently well to pull this off! :D


Nothing sinister or deceitful, just having a laugh, whilst preventing the debate from becoming too one sided, how about it Worrals? :ok:

Gnadenburg 10th Jul 2014 11:55


"We admired the skill and the sense of honour that they brought to their task although we disagreed with what they did. Perhaps we grasped, even then, that with a change of heart the fiercest of opponents could be the best of friends," Mr Abbott said.
Wow! Perhaps my lefty-lunatic mates are right, Abbott is a weirdo. How can anyone recognize the deeds of the Imperial Japanese Navy. You could write a book on their war crimes! They were horrific.

Perhaps he can visit Germany and comment on the bravery of the Waffen-SS.

Really, what a d%^khead, with no idea of what happened in Asia beyond the ill-treatmemt of Allied POW's.

rh200 10th Jul 2014 12:20


Even at the height of World War II, Australia gave the Japanese submariners killed in the attack on Sydney full military honours. Admiral Muirhead-Gould said of them: “theirs was a courage which is not the property or the tradition or the heritage of any one nation…but was patriotism of a very high order”.
And as with every thing, context is every thing.

I am wondering are you actually one of your lefty mates, or just still bitter about the war.

The wars over, the Japanese did some down right nasty things, we won, our morels set the tone that they where criminals.

A war crime is only point of view depending on who wins and what values you are using.

bosnich71 10th Jul 2014 12:23

Parabellum .. " I have a theory about Worrals".
I have a theory as well, I reckon she likes Biggles books. Or once read them.

bosnich71 10th Jul 2014 12:37

Worrals ... In the olden days one of the things that staffers used to do every morning was read the newspapers and identify and bring to the attention of their masters anything that they thought was of interest. Letters to the editor were about the only way of stirring the pot and editors could always ignore you,( a bit like the Guardian does even now with the internet).
Nowadays it must be so much easier, turn on the computer, type in a couple of words and hey ho there they are, lots of left/right wing nutters according to who you're looking for.
Perhaps it's one of the lower rank jobs. You want a cushy number as a "socialist" M.P. for example, but you have to start at the bottom of the pile, your basic law degree isn't enough, just yet, to get you into that position in one of those western suburb electorates so you are dispatched to writing wind ups on a "Right Wing Nutter" blog. Of course after a few months you get a bit paranoid and start insulting the nutters and eventually you are taken off such work and a new staffer is appointed. Sometimes you get the nod from the power brokers in one of the factions and get a shot at the next by election or whatever but in the main you get overlooked and move on, unless of course you're an ex M.P. in the Pongoes who gets picked up by some charlatan who once worked to get Jo elected to P.M.

Gnadenburg 10th Jul 2014 12:40


And as with every thing, context is every thing.

I am wondering are you actually one of your lefty mates, or just still bitter about the war.

The wars over, the Japanese did some down right nasty things, we won, our morels set the tone that they where criminals.

A war crime is only point of view depending on who wins and what values you are using.

It's still going. And those foolish comments show a suburban-Australian ignorance that the mistreatment of POW's was the extent of the Japanese atrocities.

In the context of what is going on in Northern Asia the PM's comments were abysmal.

How's the white picket fence BTW?

7x7 10th Jul 2014 12:48

I have to agree that Tony Abbott blew it (I'd go so far as to say 'big time') with his comments about Japanese soldiers in WW2.

Just watching ex-Gillard staffer Nicholas Rees (sp?) on the Paul Murray show. The man's a senior lecturer in politics at Melbourne University. There is no way could any student who came up with an even mildly conservative argument pass any course this man was is any way involved with, so is it any wonder we see damn near every university graduate thoroughly indoctrinated in Leftist ideology?

Worrals in the wilds 10th Jul 2014 12:48


I have a theory about Worrals! :)
Going back a couple of years and reading Worrals posts she was about as right of centre as the rest of us, well, she posted that way, anyway.
Our regular lefties all got the chop and for a while, particularly after last September, Worrals has slowly become a trade unionist and gone quite left!
Haha Para, well spotted :cool: I wondered when (or if :\) someone was going to call me out. Truth be told; I have always been a trade unionist. I first joined a union in 1998 (my first real job) because dear ol' Dad (former proud member of the BLF, now an even prouder self-made member of a professional association) told me it was the way to be heard and I'd get :mad:ed over if I wasn't in the Union. All too soon I found out that he was correct; to quote an often (and badly) sung chorus; the union saw me through.

After that, despite being a union member I voted Liberal federally until Howard's Work Choices. Later I posted on here (loudly) about my dissatisfaction with the state Labor government, particularly wrt Permier Bligh's handling of the 2011 Brisbane floods. In the following state election I voted LNP to get rid of Bligh and friends, and again, posted here with my reasons for that.

The LNP romped into power in Queensland on the backs of voters such as myself. They claimed an historic victory and given the performance of the previous state Labor government, IMO they deserved it. As posted here, I stood in the main ring of the Brisbane Ekka on Labour Day 2012 after that victory, looked over the 20,000 people standing there and said 'a lot of these people voted Liberal.'

They did, and I was one of them. We voted for what was touted as a moderate conservative government. We voted to get rid of a moribound Labor state government that did nothing for Queenslanders. However, what we got was not a moderate government. What we got was a collection of right wing freaks who immediately sacked everyone they could, wound up profitable government departments, publically abused the officers of the Queensland Ambulance Service and the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service :yuk:, introduced draconian association laws (the VLAD laws) that even Joh would have shied away from, pissed off the doctors and the judiciary and basically behaved like a bunch of banjo players from Deliverance. :ouch:

On here I posted in favour of Campbell Newman. I said that he had been a good Lord Mayor of Brisbane (which he was IMO, though later I heard otherwise) and that he would make a good Premier. I was wrong. Very wrong. For all the bile I spat at Bligh (and I make no apology for any of it, though I'm sorry she got crook) he is worse. A nasty little creature who cannot accept any criticism whatsoever. IMO he will lose his seat and it will be a well deserved loss. He has led a government with an historic win into perdition, and has alienated his most dogged supporters. The quote I heard from Treasury (and a very right wing member of that department) was 'you can't imagine the sh!t we hear from his office. We try and hose it down, but some of it gets out'! :ouch:

I have attended legitimate protests that had full approval, and still been overtly filmed by Queensland Police on their smart phones. Appparently this was 'for my protection.' :confused: Now I'm not a government employee and I don't seek promotion, so this isn't a big thing for me personally. However, other people I stood with got nervous about this sort of thing. They found it intimidating, and a little bit Queensland Retro. :hmm: This sort of thing doesn't help me back to the centre right. It sends me further left. Film me and be damned: I won't wear a stupid Warner Brothers mask. I will stand in a public square, show my face and have my say despite your intimidation, Qld Government.

The LNP got in, and it's their democratically elected government. I voted for it and therefore I can't complain too much. However, I tell you this; after seeing the LNP in Queensland it will take a lot for me to ever vote Liberal in the state again; Work Choices killed them for me federally many years before. Many of you speak of your Whitlam experience, where you voted for Whitlam and were dissillusioned with Labor ever after. In the past few years I have seen the LNP Newman government in action, and my experience is the same as yours, but opposite.

I was always a unionist, but I have gone political in the past 18 months, as some of you regular readers may have gathered :suspect::}. This has been because of what I have seen in the state; because of watching a conservative government trash civil liberties and the separation of powers; watching several profitable government departments get annhilated because it was Good Politics :yuk:, watching many preventative health programmes get doused because it meant for a quick budget saving, even though there'll be a blow out of STDs and diabetes ten years down the track...

So to answer your question Para (eventually :\) it's not about the thread or the debate. It's about the politics, and the time came where I had to pick a side. I picked my side, and that's where I sit. TBQH the same place I always sat; in the words of Suzanne Vega; left of centre wondering about you. :};)

rh200 10th Jul 2014 13:29


It's still going.
Please explain?


And those foolish comments show a suburban-Australian ignorance that the mistreatment of POW's was the extent of the Japanese atrocities.
Nobody has any illusion's with what the Japanese did during WW2, but there was also many military engagements where they exhibited great skill. Now 60 years or so we can nit pick and try and maintain the rage, or we can move on.

I would actually say your are showing a lack of intellectual understanding of human nature. As such I used to have far more disdain for what the Germans did than the Japanese, Why?

Its simple, What you perceive as right or wrong is dependent on your culture. The Germans did a lot of things that they new was wrong and kept hidden from the general populace. The Japanese on the other hand where significantly different.

There are no shortage of cultures that exhibit behavior and standards of such we find abhorrent.

The concepts of rules of war, right or wrong are a cultural issue.


I have to agree that Tony Abbott blew it (I'd go so far as to say 'big time') with his comments about Japanese soldiers in WW2.
Thats what I thought as well, thats why I went and found the complete text. You don't think that speech was looked over and studied carefully before hand?

Sucking up to the Japanese and Balancing our sucking up to the Chinese is a delicate balancing act. If all we get is some huff and puff from the Chinese, then he got it right.

Gnadenburg 10th Jul 2014 14:20

A lack of recognition by Japan of its wartime atrocities helps beat the drums of nationalism in northern Asia.

Atrocities against civilians in every single campaign that the Japanese Navy and Army participated in ably demonstrated the institutionalized nature of their war crimes. This was not the case with the Wermacht; and this is a complicated argument though I dare say any recognition of German military prowess would be diplomatic suicide by any government.

So for Abbott to recognize the Japanese tenacity in a midget sub-attack on Sydney was foolish considering the atrocities the Japanese Navy committed- especially the Rape of Manila and in our own context, the sinking of the Australian hospital ship Centaur.

Your argument of culture is an odd one. I don't really understand how you dismiss Japanese war crimes yet are troubled by the Nazis. Perhaps you should read into the subject a little more with a more regional perspective.


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