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parabellum 27th May 2014 05:36

We agree on one thing allisoncc, the Catholic church's attitude to birth control. One only has to look at Rio or Manila to see what misery that causes.

500N 27th May 2014 05:44

Ken

It didn't open my mind, I was only pleased to see that some were being a bit more outspoken about it than most.

I have two mosques near me (that I know of) and plenty of full robed ladies walking around.

Hempy 27th May 2014 07:11


Originally Posted by 500N (Post 8494702)
The problem is, a lot of people have switched off to ANY message from the church(es) so they don't hear anything or never put themselves in a position to hear a message.

And to be honest 'blaming the church' is a great example of the decline, and why. People CHOOSE to do bad things, mostly, just like you and 'a lot of people' CHOOSE not to attend a church. The message has never changed, so you cant blame the fact that people have switched off to it on the church, only on the people.

And that's a society decision. If the minority stops wanting to listen to the message, the majority can either take action to arrest it (e.g Law. And really, we are a 'civilized' nation, surely that's not required!), or let it pass. Let it pass and the decline continues, because as a species we are SELFISH. So it continues down, to base level eventually I'm sure....and you blame the church :rolleyes:

chuboy 27th May 2014 07:21

Well my HO is that churches of all denominations are irrelevant in this day and age.

We don't need them, especially not to tell us that murdering is wrong. :zzz:

500N 27th May 2014 07:30

Hempy

If you read what I said, I was not referring to me,
I was talking about other people.

The majority of people do not go to church any more.

The church has lost / is losing relevance in this country. It is the churches who need to become relevant to peoples lives if they want to get people to listen to the message.

I have no problem what so ever with churches pushing whatever message they want to whoever they want. I have JW on my doorstep regularly but what I do doesn't fit with them, I just politely decline.

Hempy 27th May 2014 07:33


Originally Posted by chuboy (Post 8494811)
We don't need them, especially not to tell us that murdering is wrong. :zzz:

'You' might not need the church to tell you that, but 'someone' needs to tell a lot more people now than 100 years ago, so murder stats would suggest anyway. 'There are no atheists in a fox hole', I hope you are never subjected to losing someone you love violently, you might change your mind about the "We" and "us" part of your statement.

It's not me, it's the kids I fkn cringe for..

Hempy 27th May 2014 07:41


Originally Posted by 500N (Post 8494821)
The church has lost / is losing relevance in this country. It is the churches who need to become relevant to peoples lives if they want to get people to listen to the message.

No, it's not. If the people chose to they will, if they don't they wont. It's not the churches job to sell ads on tv or to somehow become 'relevant',. It's the peoples job to chose to LISTEN. If they don't, religion declines, the message is lost, morality drops and suddenly Hey Presto it's 2014. It's our sh1t (well, 'your' shit), so we can suck it.

No Hoper 27th May 2014 07:50


As for compassion and understanding, that only extends to their own when caught interferring with children.
I call you bigot on this statement. You Sir need a damn good slapping

Hempy +1

Worrals in the wilds 27th May 2014 08:01

And back to politics...;):}

Hours before his scheduled appearance, Education Minister Christopher Pyne told the ABC's Lateline program that the AFP was ''concerned about our safety'' as well as ''the safety of innocent bystanders''.
Mr Pyne also told 2GB broadcaster Alan Jones that the AFP couldn't guarantee the safety of bystanders. ''We're not worried for our own safety,'' he said.
But a senate estimates hearing in Canberra heard that the AFP gave no advice that the Prime Minister should not visit due to specific safety concerns.
AFP Deputy Commissioner Peter Drennan said: ''The type of threat that would need to exist for us to say not to go would probably be a serious terrorist threat or a threat made by a motivated group which was going to be violent, or from some fixated individual.
''That was not the case in these set of circumstances, so it was not a matter where we said 'it's too dangerous for you to be there. We should not go'.''

Fancy that. :E
Senior AFP officer raises questions about security advice given to Tony Abbott on university visit

Speaking of criminals, I see Roger Rogerson has been arrested...:ooh:

alisoncc 27th May 2014 08:55



As for compassion and understanding, that only extends to their own when caught interferring with children.
I call you bigot on this statement. You Sir need a damn good slapping

Hempy +1
I suspect you have little idea of the meaning of the word "Bigot". Try this quote from a letter to George Pell from his cousin Monica Hingston. Found in it's entirity here:
Dear George, are we depraved? - www.theage.com.au

Monica wrote:

My partner and I have just celebrated 19 years together. You may remember I introduced you to her when you visited at Peter MacCallum hospital some years ago. To read that the Vatican has declared us to be "seriously depraved persons" has appalled and angered me.

Synonyms for depraved are "corrupt, debased, vicious, vile, wicked, degenerate".

You will be expected to reinforce these sentiments in the hearts and minds of your Catholic brethren, and when occasions permit, to the wider society. It is hard to imagine that you would actually be able to look me in the eye and tell me any of those adjectives could truthfully describe me. And surely you wouldn't insult my intelligence by prefacing it with "it's the sin, not the sinner" stuff.

My partner has given 35 years - more than half her life - to the service of others as a Franciscan nun. Twenty-seven of those years have been spent living with people suffering extreme hardship and oppression in the slums of Chile, and 17 under a brutal, tyrannical regime.

I spent 26 years as a Mercy (Nun), 10 of those under the same dictatorship in Chile, and the rest working for the rights of the oppressed and marginalised in Australia.
Why did the Catholic Church consider her seriously depraved, because she lives in a gay relationship. That Sir is bigotry in it's vilest form.

Noyade 27th May 2014 09:13

Aaaaand, another one bite's the dust... :ok:

http://i59.tinypic.com/149nknq.jpg

Hempy 27th May 2014 09:14


Originally Posted by Worrals in the wilds (Post 8494862)
Speaking of criminals, I see Roger Rogerson has been arrested...:ooh:


Security footage allegedly shows three men walking into the storage shed – but only the two former police officers walk out.
I think Roger has dodged his last murder charge. No network and no Neddy to look after him in the big house either.

http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/roger-rogerson-refused-bail-over-alleged-murder-of-jamie-gao-20140527-39278.html

Worrals in the wilds 27th May 2014 09:14

The present Pope has shown a more caring (and more Christian IMO) POV. While Pell Pot may now be residing at the Vatican, it's possible that the Vatican's current ideology is less in tune with his. I hope so, anyway.

“Lent calls us to ‘give ourselves a “shake-up,”‘ to remember that we are creatures, that we are not God,” he preached in his Ash Wednesday sermon.
Pope Francis civil unions gay marriage interview - TIME
And another one down, and another one down...just saying.

The royal commission has heard that Major Haggar admitted in 1989 to indecently assaulting an eight-year-old girl in a town in central western NSW.
Major Haggar was stood down the following year, but the town where the abuse occurred and other Salvationists were not told what happened.
In 1990, Major Haggar told Commissioner Condon he wanted to go to the police and confess.
The royal commission heard that although the organisation had dismissed Major Haggar, no-one from the Salvation Army had notified the police.
...
Major Haggar faced no charges and was reinstated as an officer in 1993.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-0...helter/5373360

500N 27th May 2014 09:18

Worrals

I agree re the pope. Seems to be connecting with everyone - connecting as in becoming relevant !!! :O

rh200 27th May 2014 09:42


Why did the Catholic Church consider her seriously depraved, because she lives in a gay relationship.
Would have thought that would be believing in ones faith.


That Sir is bigotry in it's vilest form.
Depending on who's exact definition of what a bigot is, it may not be. If its the one that says "unfair etc" then obviously not, as its against their faith.

If its the more broad definition, then a significant amount of the population are by definition bigots, for example strong atheists against religious people, left against right, right against left. Welcome to the human race.

Worrals in the wilds 27th May 2014 10:00

Funnily enough though, staid old Pope Benedict showed himself to be a true rebel by retiring. :cool: He overturned nearly 720 years of precedent to do so (the previous example was Pope Celestine V in 1294).

My opinion of Pope Benedict XVI was mixed; he was undoubtedly conservative and supported a lot of Church doctrine that was (IMO) outdated and clearly wrong, particularly wrt birth control. In other words a man of his times, namely yesterday. :}

However, that was tempered by a second hand account (friend of a relative) who had met him in the Vatican while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger (head of the Inquistion, sorry Doctrine of the Faith :suspect:) and sung his praises as being a very decent and honest bloke, albeit conservative.

It was more tempered by his retirement; that was an unprecedented move, and IMO a very brave and courageous one. He bowed out gracefully and left the way clear for a younger and more progressive Pope, without bloodshed or suspicious circumstances.

This was unprecedented wrt recent Catholic history, and I think he should be remembered for his...bravery? Choose your word. While conservative (and that's not a crime in itself) he bucked over 700 years of precedent by saying 'you know what? I'm too old for this and I'm retiring'. :cool: Whatever else I disagreed with him on I had to hand it to him for that.

Changing gears somewhat...

No network and no Neddy to look after him in the big house either.
Agreed. I opined recently to learned counsel :} (prior to the arrest) that it would be a brave copper who'd arrest Rogerson, to be met with the comment; 'who'd care? All his mates have retired!' :bored:
'Tis true, it seems. Good thing, too. Let him face a jury and answer questions. Let us remember that he's an old man, particularly when we enthuse about the good ol' days when the rule of law applied and fervent belief was enough to prevent evil...apparently. ;)

Jeps 27th May 2014 10:33

As a nutty atheist but someone who is interested and fascinated by religion I would argue that the whole premise of the Catholic Church is to not modernise. Whilst many call for the church to embrace same sex marriage and take a more modern approach on other social issues I would say they shouldn't. Changing or modernizing anything about the Catholic Church would be completely changing the ideology and belief of centuries of tradition.

I believe in pretty much everything the Catholic Church doesn't (same sex marriage, putting the pope on trial to answer questions over the systemic child abuse that has consumed the inner workings of the church for centuries like the normal person that he is and thus, not above the law like everyone else on this planet) so I say this as an observer not a person of the faith.

Worrals in the wilds 27th May 2014 10:49


I would argue that the whole premise of the Catholic Church is to not modernise.
IMO this applies to every not-for-profit enterprise everywhere, including religions, political parties, charitable organizations and the various branches of the RNA. :}

By definition, people who get involved in NFPs aren't interested in profit. They're interested in power, and their achieved power is rarely (if ever) enhanced by modernization. I recently rewatched the film Strictly Ballroom and was reminded of this principle. :\:}

Committee people are committee people everywhere. You can travel to India, visit temples and meet committee people who have the same concerns as the local Aussie Ballroom Dancing Association. They're the same the world over. :} The scary part is realising that you're one of them...

Captain Dart 27th May 2014 10:50

I would also put the 'pope' on trial in The Hague for discouraging birth control, but I see why he does it; more little Catholics on the way. But global overpopulation is the elephant in the room.

The catholic hierarchy's stance is comparable to Australia's socialists supporting illegal immigration; guess who will vote Labor.

Jeps 27th May 2014 13:01

I Agree Captain Dart. They have a lot to answer for particularly in Africa where the line is "We think AIDS is bad, but not quite as bad as condoms".


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