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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Willi B 26th May 2012 03:44

Perhaps some of Gina Rinehart's potential recruits are already here - Bridging visa to nowhere

Worrals in the wilds 26th May 2012 03:54

I know there're two sides, Cooda, particularly wrt skilled tradespeople, but it's just so open to abuse by big companies. Most Australian workers find this concept pretty scary, paticularly when it's coupled with the constant cries for 'workplace flexibility' from the big miners (which IMO translates as 'serfs on a buck a day with no pesky WH&S conditions or super, like we use over in our Sudanese operation)' :}.

Nor does it encourage government or industry to provide incentives and decent apprencticeship schemes to train our own tradies. If they know they can just import a shipping container of sparkies from India and deport them back after the job's done, why bother training anyone? To be honest, if we're that short of tradies I'd rather see people come permanently on the skilled migration scheme rather than be international FIFOs.

I suppose the next little trick will be agitating to pay them less than the Australian award because 'it's still a fortune back in Goatistan'. :ugh:Gotta protect that daily $52 million.

RJM 26th May 2012 04:21

I wonder why we have to look overseas.

I know of a case in which a local state warehouse was closed at the end of 2011 in favour of central distribution direct to customers from one city in Aust.

Three storemen/packers and three forklift drivers, all male aged 28-42 were paid off. Three found work immediately in the Pilbara at about $50 per hour plus penalties, equiv to about $AUD150K pa.

Here's one of the numerous ads on the net:

Water Cart Operators (FIFO)
published on Tue, 22 May 2012 06:47:14 GMT
Company : Maniac Mining

Location : Perth - Inner, Perth - Outer, Goldfields-Esperance, Kimberley, Mid-West, Pilbara, Wheatbelt, WA - Other, Outside WA

Multiple roles available for experienced water cart operators on a 2x2 roster with a great salary - long term permanent work with an immediate start
I'm surprised that there aren't well advertised courses offering re-skilling for the resource industry.

Worrals in the wilds 26th May 2012 05:11

I'm surprised that there aren't well advertised courses offering re-skilling for the resource industry.
There are, and some of them are awfully shonky. :suspect:
Google 'mining training' if you want to see what's on offer. Some are good; some just exist to liberate money from people.

CoodaShooda 26th May 2012 11:20

but it's just so open to abuse by big companies
So why do we fund a plethora of government agencies to regulate companies and industrial conditions?

Julia is going against the considered position of three of her senior Ministers, including Martin Ferguson, to do the populist knee-jerk with the unions.

Does anyone else see a dychotomy between Swan's recent crowings about the health of the economy and the low unemployment rate (statistically full employment) and Gillard's new war cry of "Jobs for Australians".

If the Australians aren't there to take up the jobs, we need to look overseas to fill the employment gaps. Otherwise, the project does not go ahead and the 51.5% of prospective local employees do not gain the employment. (I'm using my figures here. Murdoch press has been quoting 80% local and 20% 457's)

Or is Julia going to take a Stalinist position and forcibly send Australians to the mines? :E

Worrals, we can agree to disagree on this one. I saw first hand the way the offshore recruitment can be abused with the estabishment of a Chinese sweat shop in the NT's Free Trade Zone in the 80's. The hoops prospective employers have to jump through now to get the 457 approvals are light years ahead when it comes to protecting national and immigrant worker interests.

I'm not saying things are perfect. We're still relying on government agencies to effectively implement policies and administer regulations.

But I believe, on this occasion, that Bowen and Ferguson would have carefully considered the full position before endorsing the granting of the 457 visas.

It is others within the party who are seeking to turn this into a circus to serve their political ends.:ugh:

parabellum 26th May 2012 12:39

To be honest, if we're that short of tradies I'd rather see people come permanently on the skilled migration scheme rather than be international FIFOs.
Round here there are good apprenticeships going begging, kids can't be bothered with a five year committment. Go labouring free lance, buy a Ute, move if the boss gets tough, delicate little souls can't take it.

RJM 26th May 2012 13:01

So why do we fund a plethora of government agencies to regulate companies and industrial conditions?
With respect, Cooda, that's like asking why we need police, or an umpire in a game of footy. Perhaps not a plethora, by definition, but we need someone to enforce the rules.

Julia is going against the considered position of three of her senior Ministers, including Martin Ferguson, to do the populist knee-jerk with the unions.
I suspect that Julia's opinion is beginning to matter less and less to ministers like Mar'n Fer's'n.

Worrals in the wilds 26th May 2012 13:04

I'd like to think you're right, Cooda.
I'd like to think this is a genuine solution to a short term problem. I'd like to think the big companies genuinely care about investing in the Australian workplace; that they want a future for Australia that includes decent pay and conditions for the blokes digging up our resources for their profit.

Unfortunately I don't believe that. I think they're out for a buck. Good luck to them, but let's not sell the whole lot off for a song. It's ours.

Australia is in a funny position; we have all this wealth sitting in the ground under a stable Parliamentary democracy. With a shortage of workers...:uhoh:

It's hard to know what to think. What I do believe is that the big companies will always want to take the easy road. They're not in the game for Australia; they're in the game to make money. It's far easier to employ a bunch of off shore casuals than train up the onshore equivalents. That's fine; that's their self interest. That's what they do.

Is it what the Australian government should do? Is it in our interest? Is it what a Labor government was (more or less :}) elected to countenance? That's what I'm not sure about. :confused:

Over the years I've become distrustful. I've seen management 'initiatives' that looked sensible on the surface and turned out to be about :mad:ing everyone over for a short term balance sheet advantage. Usually they didn't actually advantage the company concerned because they were about robbing Peter to pay Paul; just accounting games. Look at Qantas.

I worry that by accepting FIFOs we're robbing Peter to pay Paul; that we're being desperate and allowing big multi nationals to turn up, fill their sacks and leave without even a kiss goodnight. They'll make their bucks and we'll be left all the poorer, because they conned us good and laughed all the way to the bank about the desperate Aussies who'd sign anything. :(

Parabellum, hear what you're saying about the kids. IMO this is why adult apprenticeships deserve more encouragement.

CoodaShooda 26th May 2012 13:55


We're not that far apart in our views of big business. The only reason a business exists is to make money - and too often decisions are left in the hands of those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

However, on this particular occasion and, I suspect, on a number of future multi-billion dollar resource projects, we will not be able to meet the full manpower demand from within Australia and will have to look overseas for some of it.

Having Gillard and the unions introduce even further "controls" will only add to the complexity of doing business here - and potentially cost jobs into the future.

bob johns 26th May 2012 14:49

bob johns
Be ware of Multi millionares in parliament They have got money megabucks and what else do they want? It has got to be either Ego or Power or both Nothing these people do are going to do any thing that will square the account for the ordinary people .Pauline Hanson and David Etteridge were gaoled for nohing !! So what about this pathetic pile of vermin have been up to !United Nation conventions --- signed into law by clapped out snout in the trough ex politicians without the over sight of our parliament What the FCUK have we got to do to put this right ? rant over - my dogs are barking - got to go and see what needs shoo- ing away

allan907 26th May 2012 15:35

The merits or not of 457 workers aside what this situation shows, yet again, is that this government is a total shambles and unable to put out a decision, any decision, in a positive light.

Perhaps Swanny and Gillard should have kept the "class war" back in the bag where it belongs. Perhaps Bowen, Ferguson et al should have checked with Gillard before announcing the deal. Whatever. The end result is what we have now come to expect from this shower of scheissen......a total fkuc up.

The one good thing that comes out from it is that they now have the unions gunning for them :}. Only a real expert in fkuc ups could manage that.

CoodaShooda 26th May 2012 22:26

they now have the unions gunning for them
I expect the strategy was to create a crisis, with the nasty mining company refusing to employ Australians ahead of "Cheap Foreign Workers".

Allow a known Rudd supporter to announce the approval of foreign workers and then have Julia and the unions disavow any pre-knowledge of his perfidious plan. (Doesn't matter that it was foreshadowed in an earlier budget and the PM's office was "in the loop")

Then have the PM ride to the rescue of the battling Aussies with "strong new initiatives" to force the miners to employ locals ahead of CFWs.

Good Julia, brave Julia, saviour of Australian jobs Julia. :yuk:

The class war continues. :ugh:

parabellum 26th May 2012 22:39

Government intervention notwithstanding, an employment visa in Australia is not that easy to obtain, (exclude 1989/pilots as that was a massive collusion between Hawke and Ables, no, I didn't accept their kind offer!).

The vacancies have to be widely advertised and writing the advert to suit an individual or group isn't allowed, the following, for example, would not make it into print:

"Vacancies exist for skilled mining workers, the ideal candidate will have black hair, a yellowish complexion, be less than six feet tall and speak pure Mandarin or Cantonese. Previous experience of a mine explosion or collapse will be an advantage"

Can't see any real advantage in shipping in workers from China and accommodating them as oppose to advertising jobs in WA in the Eastern press and telling the guys and gals to make their way over for a well paid job with accommodation? May be an agreement between Center Link and Gina is in order?:E

RJM 27th May 2012 00:02

Or just do what Twiggy Forrest is doing up there with his indigenous employment program. If there are jobs going in areas which have a high number of unemployed indigenpous guys - why not prefer them for the jobs as far as possible? (Quick google search...) In fact, this seems to be happening:

Andu 27th May 2012 04:35

Just heard Jules massacring the English language on the news saying that rumours of a change of leadership were not true and that she was the best person to lead Labor into the next election.

I hope she's right - I really hope she is the one to lead Labor into oblivion.

Unfortunately, if history is anything to go by, if Jules is telling us there's not about to be a change of leader, it's a pretty safe bet to say that there's about to be a change of leader.

Clare Prop 27th May 2012 09:10

I think it was Sir Humphrey Appleby who said sopmething like

"Never believe anything, Minister, until it has been vehemently denied in a press conference at least once"

CoodaShooda 27th May 2012 11:49

It seems we may not be alone

The country needs a bad guy to blame for its problems, so day in and day out Obama is providing them with a smorgasbord of villains from which to choose: Wall Street, Big Oil, the Tea Party, Paul Ryan, Rush Limbaugh, the Supreme Court, the Catholic Church, and so on. In fact, virtually everything that comes out of this president’s mouth is about redirecting blame onto some straw man.

This is why Obama does not care if his attacks are unfair, untrue, unoriginal, unseemly, or whatever. He has only one goal: The state of the union stinks right now, and I must keep that stench off me.


This strategy might get him reelected, but for what greater purpose? Barack Obama intends to break the country into fragments by shamelessly playing one group off another, in the hope that by November his share of the pieces will be just a touch larger than the opposition’s. But how can he possibly put those pieces back together again, should he be victorious?

Our system is designed to prevent big changes absent a broad consensus, which Obama has little hope of achieving with this approach. He will not get enough Democrats in Congress to replay 2009-2010, meaning that he will have to work with Republicans, the very people he is now villainizing. Does he think the sore feelings he has created will simply disappear? They won’t. When you lose somebody’s trust, you almost never get it back.

Harry Truman employed the same, rotten strategy to win reelection in 1948; he succeeded at the ballot box, but his Fair Deal largely stalled in the Congress in 1949. Unsurprisingly, after months of dividing the people with class warfare rhetoric, Truman was unable to bring them back together to govern.

Barack Obama should expect nothing more, and I cannot help but marvel at how diminished he is now relative to the heights of just 3 years ago.

I think the quote was attributed to James Hacker and was "Never believe anything until it's been officially denied."

allan907 28th May 2012 15:31

Just finished watching the Lateline interview with Carr. At the end of the Syria stuff he was asked questions about the latest stuff up with the 457 visas and its effect on the government.

Now I realise that he, perforce, has to defend the government but he actually sounded as though he believed what he was saying; 'if the media would back off we can get our message through - there's no real problem'.

For supposedly intelligent and educated people just what does it take to get the message through that the Gillard government is fckued and that the only decent and honourable thing to do now is to call an election?

With each passing day Abbott sounds more and more Prime Ministerial.

RJM 28th May 2012 19:34

The myth of the good government whose message just isn't getting through seems to be clung to by many in the ALP.

There must be something in their water coolers. Government members sit in parliament day after day listening to Gillard lying and obfuscating as in her point blank refusal to say she supports the Roy Hill deal with Gina Rinehart's company.

Gillard may think she's being clever, or that people are enjoying what she's doing, but it seems that only the ALP can't hear the now deafening tick tick tick...

The members for Robertson and La Trobe who are on camera every time the government is at the despatch box at Question Time are perfect examples of the government's apparent inability to share the frustration and infuriation of a growing majority of voters.

These ladies nod furiously. They smile. They chat. They are Labor’s “what me worry?” cheerleaders who seem oblivious to the electoral tsunami that awaits them, and Labor.

Meanwhile, Labor's support has dropped in the latest Essential Media poll, with the next Newspoll due very soon.

Gillard should apply for a job at Roy Hill. At the rate she's digging, she could have the whole place worked out in a week or so.

Fubaar 28th May 2012 23:16

And yet another boat with yet another 88 uninvited guests arrived yesterday.

And Channel 7 are advertising that tonight at 6.30, they'll be showing there are "thousands" waiting to take the trip to Australia.

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