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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Andu 25th Feb 2014 07:47

SOPS, any Westerner who moves to the Middle East is usually surprised in his early days there at the incredible level of pride the Arab males have in themselves. If there was some basis to this over-inflated pride, it might be forgivable, but the achievements they seem to look to don't bear close scrutiny. Arabs created everything - (there is some slim basis to this claim - for before fundamentalist Islam sucked creativity in the Arab world almost dry, it was a centre of excellence in science, mathematics, medicine and any number of other disciplines).

Their military prowess is without peer (but not perhaps in quite the way most Westerners would read that phrase). The Egyptians have a whole wing of their Military Museum in Cairo devoted to the 1973 Yom Kippur War and every day, thousands of school children are bused in to be pumped up with national pride in Egypt's glorious - and victorious - military past (and all too many of the young boys among these visitors get quite nasty towards any Westerner they see at the museum after this injection of national pride).

Along with Hosni Mubarak's MiG 21, (I wonder of it's still there now?), in this huge wing are enormous murals showing the victories Egypt won against the hated Zionist Entity in the first two weeks of that war... And of the next two weeks? - when the Egyptians had their arses well and truly kicked and were forced into accepting a cease fire after the Israelis crossed the Suez Canal into Egypt and left the front line Egyptian units cut off from their lines of supply?

Not a mention.

For the Arabs, the victories of those first two weeks are enough. They beat their enemy, and the fact that most of the enemy soldiers were home on leave at the time isn't even part of the equation.

In every other war they've head with the Israelis since 1948, they dredge up some victory - a victory that would have won the war decisively if the perfidious British/French/Americans (pick your nasty Western nation) hadn't robbed them by having a cease fire called to prevent them thoroughly defeating the hated Zionists.

Worrals in the wilds 25th Feb 2014 07:48

No, Worrals won't. ;)
Worrals has been bored to tears by enough (alleged:hmm:) hot shot lawyers, big time actors, trade union heavies and pilots in her time to realise that 'bigging it up' is a universal jerk trait, and that jerks exist within all cultures and racial groups.

The personal best was probably the hotshot (again, alleged) property developer who was full of how he'd managed to demolish acres of Brisbane heritage workers' cottages to make way for apartment blocks. This was supposed to be impressive, which IMO showed a massive mis-calculation of his target audience, ie me. :rolleyes:

Where SOPS has a point is that some cultures seem to see being a jerk as a desirable trait, and maybe it is within their own culture; however, most other people find it obnoxious, threatening or both. :uhoh:

EDIT: Andu, just saw your post. WRT military 'victories', in fairness I think we all do a bit of that. We got clobbered in our most revered military engagement, but that doesn't impact on national pride.

500N 25th Feb 2014 07:52

Their military prowess is without peer (but not perhaps in quite the way most Westerners would read that phrase).

Does this apply to Saudi Arabia ?

I thought they had the gear but couldnt do it without help
- the one pilot in gw1 being the exception ?

SOPS 25th Feb 2014 09:29

Seems that Stephen Conroy has completely lost it in the senate hearing, making wild accusations against Angus Campbell. I think the fact that the boats have stopped is driving Labor absoloutly insane.

In other, non confirmed reports, another life boat has arrived back on the Indoneasian coast full of country shoppers. Hopefully the message is starting to sink in....don't bother even trying.

Fliegenmong 25th Feb 2014 09:31

Ha ha funny! -

Worrals has been bored to tears by enough (alleged) hot shot lawyers, big time actors, trade union heavies and pilots in her time to realise that 'bigging it up' is a universal jerk trait, and that jerks exist within all cultures and racial groups

I've been so happily married for so long that I can't imagine the single scene at all, but I did always marvel at the 'universal Jerk Trait', never understood why other blokes thought being a dishonest [email protected] would endear themselves to women.....they looked so stupid, fake, and frankly embarrassing!

And getting back to the Gold Coast.......a sunny place for shady people......the universal jerk trait is to be seen everywhere! Frequently culminating in House, car, boat, you name it repossessions......

7x7 25th Feb 2014 10:06

Well, if you thought the relationship between the military and Stephen Smith was bad, imagine what it will be like if Bill Shorten ever finds himself on the Government benches again and Stephen Conroy gets to be Defence Minister (as Labar's Shadow Defence man, he's slotted to be).

"You're involved in a political cover up." said repeatedly to General Campbell. I can only begin to imagine the conversation in damn near every Army Mess tonight, from lowly ORs to the most senior officers, on the subject of Stephen Conroy.

The man's proved himself to be a total pillock repeatedly over the last seven years (and probably before), but today, he carved himself a whole new category of low life in the eyes of every man and woman who serves (or served) in the military.

rh200 25th Feb 2014 11:30

True, but it's not an exclusively Lebanese trait.
:) Its called nature Worrals, but we are slowly having it beaten out of us.:p Some cultures are just hanging on longer than they should.

untamedcross 25th Feb 2014 13:35

I think that Conroy will get what's coming to him - at long last!

Andu 25th Feb 2014 20:48

Was Conroy trying to adopt the Richard Branson look with the wooly pully and the hardly fastened tie, which was so loose, it was almost a cravat?

Or was it a studied insult to the military people he was interrogating (the only apt word, except perhaps for 'hectoring')? Surely to God such men have staffers whose job it is to tell them that what they're doing is so incredibly inappropriate that it will cost them votes?

If the Senate was a private company, Conroy's performance yesterday would have led to an instant dismissal notice.

500N 25th Feb 2014 20:51

"Surely to God such men have staffers whose job it is to tell them that what they're doing is so incredibly inappropriate that it will cost them votes? "

If he has staffers, they should be sacked.

Conroy dropped the bucket of shote on his own head.

Of all the people to pick on, this would be like a walk in the park on a Sunday for this particular General. He would have gone through every type of bastardisation, interrogation training including sleep deprivation, water torture "simulation" etc, anything Conroy would have thrown at him is piss weak.

CoodaShooda 25th Feb 2014 23:02

Conroy epitomizes everything that is wrong with politics in Australia.

Crass, boorish, intolerant, ill informed, ill advised but apparently leadership material. :ugh:

Ken Borough 26th Feb 2014 01:10

I recommend this pece by Ross Gittens to all of you, without prejudice. :ok:

Under Tony Abbott, political principles reach an all-time low

Gittins: Politicians behaving badly
When it comes to standards of political behaviour, our politicians seem locked in a race to the bottom. Ross Gittins comments.

We are witnessing history being made. Unfortunately, it's a history-making decline in standards of political behaviour. At least it proves we're not merely imagining that things were better in the old days.

Tempting though it is, one of the things incoming governments don't do is delve into the affairs of their predecessor. The papers of the old government aren't made available to the new masters. But all that is out the window with the Abbott government's decision to establish a royal commission into the Rudd government's handling of the home insulation program and provide it with Labor's cabinet documents.

"The sad truth is that, for politicians as for most of us, the moral compass that guides us asks: what's everyone else doing?" Photo: Alex Ellinghausen
It takes innocence greater than I can muster to believe the motive for the inquiry is to bring justice to the program's victims rather than to embarrass the Coalition's political opponents by raking over one of their more celebrated stuff-ups.

Labor can take its lumps. The real pity is that a long standing convention seeking to limit political vindictiveness has been cast aside. One thing we can be sure of is that when next Labor returns to power it will lose no time in retaliating, as will that government's eventual Coalition successor. Advantage-seeking retaliation will become a bigger part of the political debate.

The man who set new lows in negativity and obstructionism in opposition is now taking us to new lows in government. In a more godly world, Labor would resist the temptation to sink to the level of misbehaviour set by its opponents, thus giving substance to its repeated claims of moral superiority. But so intense is the competition between the parties that this seems unlikely. Last week Bill Shorten promised to lead a constructive opposition and not oppose everything for the sake of it. It's a wonderful resolve - one which, if lived up to, many voters would find attractive - but I fear it's another take from Tony Abbott: almost tearful promises to sin no more, followed by an immediate resumption.

The great likelihood is that Labor in opposition will model its behaviour on Abbott in opposition, in conformity with that great moral precept: tit for tat. The sad truth is that, for politicians as for most of us, the moral compass that guides us asks: what's everyone else doing?

We take our ethics from our perception of the behaviour of those around us, particularly our competitors. We all see ourselves as more moral than the next person, but when challenged our defence is always: I'm no worse than he is. After all, he started it. Thus are our politicians locked in a race to the bottom. Rather than trying to counter our fear of foreigners, politicians have preferred to pander to it, vying to be the side whose mistreatment of asylum seekers goes so far it discourages any more from coming - all intended to dissuade them from risking their lives on a dangerous sea voyage, naturally.

So far have our standards sunk that we must now suffer the indignity of being lectured on human rights by the Chinese government.

Declining standards at federal level have been matched by bad behaviour at state level. For an example of state politicians willing to blatantly mislead their electorates, look no further than the Victorian and NSW governments' dishonest explanation for the looming jump of about 25 per cent in the price of household gas.

The true reason for the rise is that the building of natural gas liquefaction plants in Gladstone will soon allow gas producers on Australia's east coast to export their gas and obtain the much higher prices paid on the world market. The east coast will go from being outside the world market to inside it.

The price rise is thus inevitable unless governments were to prohibit the companies from exporting their gas, forcing them to continue accepting below-world prices. There has been no suggestion of penalising the gas producers in this way. Rather, state politicians have taken up the dishonest claim of the gas companies that permitting them to build new and controversial coal seam gas plants would somehow prevent gas prices from rising or force them back down. But as any student of economics could tell you, there's no way NSW and Victoria could ever produce enough natural gas to significantly affect the world price of gas.

The price of gas in NSW and Victoria would stay below the world price only if the new producers were compelled to sell their gas to local users at below the world price. Again, there's been no suggestion of this.

Last week the gas companies' illogical argument was taken up by the new NSW Minister for Energy and Resources, Anthony Roberts.

I'm prepared to believe Roberts may be economically illiterate, but I don't believe his advisers are - nor that they don't read the papers, where the scam has been exposed.

Although Roberts has replaced a minister who left the cabinet under a cloud, he seems uninhibited in his efforts to mislead the electorate.

It's hard to know whether he is simply seeking to advance the gas industry's vested interests or is setting up an alibi which allows the government to blame the inevitable jump in gas prices on those terrible people opposed to fracking.

Either way, his only crime is seeking to deceive voters. And these days that's the way everyone plays the political game, isn't it?

Ross Gittins is economics editor.

Read more: Under Tony Abbott, political principles reach an all-time low

Clare Prop 26th Feb 2014 01:53

Whatever the Silly Moaning Herald may say, I think the all time low in parliament was either Gillard's fishwife shrieking misogyny speech, her giggling and flirting during a speech about troops in Afghanistan and Thompson's "they took photos of my pregnant wife in the shower" speech. Conroy "Red Underpants" has come pretty close with his shocking performance yesterday.
Can one of you give a performance in parliament by a Coalition MP that comes close to those? I like to keep an open mind.

Worrals in the wilds 26th Feb 2014 02:53

Hockey's speech to Swan when he won his international award. Crass, ungracious and just rude.
Premier Newman asking fireys' union guys if they stripped as well, before calling them fakes on TV, which they weren't (I realise that wasn't in parliament so may not count).

That said I agree re the misogyny speech and I haven't seen the military one yet.

bosnich71 26th Feb 2014 03:02

Ken ....
" Under Tony Abbott, political principals reach an all time low".
So during the 6 years of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd there were principals ?

Was Gillard's acceptance of Thompson's use of, ' ladies of negotiable virtue' , principled ?
Was Williamson's fraud of millions of lower paid workers money and the acceptance of that by the Labour Party principled ?
Was Gillard' acceptance of the boy friends fiddle of monies from the AWU principled ?
Was Rudd's acceptance of deaths in roofs and a few thousand people losing their homes to avoidable fires principled ?
Never mind the likes of the Obeids and the rest of the "principled A********s in N.S.W. who've lived high on the hog using other peoples money, and being backed all the way by the rest of the "Honourable", principled Labour M.P,s at both Federal and State level.
One could go on but at the end of the day people like Gittins are just scum bags. They don't report news they just give us their version of it, not worth wasting even the five minutes I've spent replying to his drivel !

P.s. my wife, who is someone who really does have principles, is still waiting to be repaid at least some of the money that she contributed to Thompson and his 'effing principles. Perhaps Gittins could write a piece about that ....... but don't hold your breath because the likes of Gittins don't have principles however much they like to pretend that they do.

Ken Borough 26th Feb 2014 03:43


Apart from your comments about Ross Gittens, you won't get an argument from me. What I will say is this: Abott has had an opportunity to raise the political behavioural bar. Thus far, it seems that he, and the rest of the Abbottoir, has an unwillingness to do so. That said, there's still time. It would be great to see a leader with pure, rather than base, political motives. :ok:

parabellum 26th Feb 2014 04:25

Well it looks as though Labour and the Greens between them may well drive Qantas to the wall, I wonder who they will blame for that?:rolleyes:

Saw some interesting numbers this morning:

Qantas now finds itself one of the world highest-cost airlines with an average staff cost of $92,000 per employee — in stark contrast to Singapore Airlines at $42,000 and Qantas’ alliance partner Emirates’ $47,000.

chuboy 26th Feb 2014 05:06

Ah, statistics. Without reading the article or having access to QF's books, one wonders whether the "average" wage in this case refers to the median or the mean?

The only thing you can be 100% certain of with stats is that they can be twisted to suit any agenda :ok:

SOPS 26th Feb 2014 05:12

Just heard that a group of country shoppers that arrived back in Indoneasia in a life boat are claiming that the Navy "blew up' their boat. More likely they burnt it, as per normal.

And guess who just popped up on the BBC to talk about how she was affected buy mysogney (spelling?) during her time as PM? I will give her some credit though, the BBC interviewer tried to get her to criticise the current governments AS policies, but she refused to make any comment.

500N 26th Feb 2014 05:13

Agree re stats.

It doesn't take into account that Sing is not Australia either !

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