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500N 13th Feb 2014 01:24

You have to love the Human rights groups. This is in relation to the father who was shot by Police near Melbourne after he had killed his son at Cricket training.

The Police tried foam spray, didn't work, had no way of disarming him so had to resort to shooting him in the chest.

"Many police officers believe Tasers can be a valuable way of resolving serious incidents and confrontations with irrational or drug-affected people.
But human rights advocates have lobbied strongly against stun guns, citing an Amnesty International report that linked Tasers to the deaths of hundreds of people

Read more: Tyabb police did not have stun guns"

Ken Borough 13th Feb 2014 02:32

500N

Please excuse mi ignorance: I know little about guns and firearms and am happy to stay that way!

I've often wondered why police don't initially a warning shot into the air before aiming at the person they are trying to apprehend. And while I realize that the torso is the largest part of the body and easiest to hit, why not aim at the legs as do many criminals do to their own? I'm sure the police mostly do their best in horrible circumstances but that doesn't mean that their methods should be critically examined.

As for Amnesty, they are right in that tasers have caused many deaths. I thought tasers were meant to stun people, not kill them.

500N 13th Feb 2014 02:51

Ken

Good questions. These are my answers, someone else might throw up a couple of other ideas.

"I've often wondered why police don't initially a warning shot into the air before aiming at the person they are trying to apprehend"

Firstly, it is not taught and shouldn't be taught.

Secondly, where do you fire it, which direction without potential to harm someone else via a ricochet off the ground - and bullets do ricochet off even dirt. You never fire a firearm into the air if you don't know where the bullet is going to go or land or what is behind where you are firing. The bullet can go a few kms.

You always are taught centre mass, ie chest. Trying to aim at the legs, smaller target, if they move almost guarantee a miss whereas chest, still likely to hit.
Miss the legs, bullet goes off god knows where.

Also, most cops don't use firearms much and are not good shots at the best of times, let along in a high stress, possibly loud (assuming the Police have been shouting at the offender to put the weapon down), high adrenalin situation. It's not like on a target range wearing ear muffs !

All in all, KISS - teach everybody to do one thing and one thing only including the build up to that point they need to pull the trigger and less things to go wrong.

Tasers do stun people, a small percentage have died due to various complications.

The thing is, the bloke today didn't give the Police a choice, at least with a Taser he might not have died, by the Police having to finally resort to a firearm it almost guaranteed he died.

At least give the Police the option.

Anyway, the word seems to be that it was "suicide by cop" so now we have
two people affected in the cop who pulled the trigger.

That's my HO.

parabellum 13th Feb 2014 03:39


"our insistence of closing down major national highways so an 'accident investigation' crew can take some pictures......"

Agree re this. And they seem to take quite a while sometimes to get it open again.
Never seems to be a sense of urgency even at rush hour !
Agree, it is a PITA but if there has been a death in the crash then the police have no option but to gather all the information required for a coroner's inquest and the possibility of charges including culpable driving involving death, that is one hell of a lot of information that they only have one chance to get.


I get very pissed off when one of the Melbourne CBD tunnels gets blocked by a broken down vehicle, (usually a large truck), and the delay lasts hours, absolutely no need. Other countries have a heavy recovery vehicle parked at the exit, (paid for by the tolls), as soon as the blockage is identified all exit traffic is stopped, the recovery vehicle goes into the tunnel, hooks up the offender and drags them out to an area at the end of the tunnel, police then restart traffic in the tunnel, longest time would be about twenty minutes but can be less on tunnels like the Burnley and the Domain, why don't Melbourne do this? Why delays lasting up to three hours?


EDIT: Possibly the longer the delay the better the overtime?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ilies/evil.gif

500N 13th Feb 2014 03:42

Para

No problems with the Police if a death involved, but like you said, it's all the other times. Even highways lanes closed. IMHO, pull the vehicles off the road and re open it.

parabellum 13th Feb 2014 03:46

Agree 500, some European countries use heavy plant to clear a smash, just shove it all to the side of the road and sort it out later, the priority is to get the traffic flowing again.




Now, politics! Who would you rather have in control of finance right now Ken, Hockey or Swann?

Worrals in the wilds 13th Feb 2014 04:19

I think Hockey is frightful; he's both brash and rude. As for his skills as Treasurer, who knows. I don't believe Hockey, Swan or any other Treasurer when it comes to economic reports, because IMO the numbers all get spun to suit the government of the day.

While Swan overspent (a bad Labor government failing), so far Hockey seems to be underspending, which is a bad Liberal government failing. Running the public service into the ground is always a popular move (everyone hates public servants, even other public servants :}) but when services start getting even worse than they are already, maybe people will care a bit more. It's never the top brass who get removed in public service culls, rather the people at the bottom doing the actual work. The whole government red tape industry will then get even slower than it is at the moment, costing everyone who has to use it time and money.

The underspending will probably be shored up with a mass of asset sales as they flog off everything that isn't nailed down to their greasy little business mates. Then when all our bills go up (again :zzz:) they'll have someone else to blame.

Anyway, apparently Qantas Mismanagement are spending the week snivelling up to the government looking for tea and sympathy about their Horrible Unions. No mention of the bun fight in Vietnam, the Red Q debacle, the 'unique' fleet decisions and all the rest of the long list of Qantas management FUBARs. Qantas woes are all the nasty workers' fault, and no doubt they'll find a pair of sympathetic ears on Hockey.


I get very pissed off when one of the Melbourne CBD tunnels gets blocked by a broken down vehicle, (usually a large truck), and the delay lasts hours, absolutely no need. Other countries have a heavy recovery vehicle parked at the exit, (paid for by the tolls)
I'm surprised you haven't already got them :confused:. Brisbane's toll tunnels do. Also, the BCC operates a Traffic Response Unit that has a number of bump trucks operating on main roads and freeways during peak hour. The spin is that it's for 'safety', but it's also about keeping the traffic moving.
Traffic Response Unit - Brisbane City Council

IIRC the freeeways are signposted as 'breakdown clearance zones', meaning the government has the right to remove your car ASAP with no ifs, buts or maybes from you. If you break down the bump truck turns up and simply pushes your car or truck off to the side of the road.

500N 13th Feb 2014 04:33

Worrals

If it is a breakdown, they do clear them pretty quickly as you say.
West gate bridge, tunnel, they just push you.

It's the accidents that they seem to take ages moving and I mean ages.
Even if all people gone to hospital, they take ages to clean up and / or
remove the vehicles from the road to the side or tow them away.

And very few highways in Vic don't have heaps of space in the middle
or on the side of the road for this to occur.

Western ring road is notorious for taking a long time.

Ken Borough 13th Feb 2014 05:03

Para,

Better ask me the same question in 12 months: it's too early to make judgement on jovial Joe. So far, the signs don't look good! As for Swan, he did his best. A lot of noted economists agree that the Australian response to the GFC was correct but that's more a result of good advice from Treasury than the clever thoughts of the Treasurer. Neither are trained economists. This must make the task of Treasurer more difficult; it results in fiscal outcomes often based on political considerations rather than the economic or fiscal needs of society. Sometimes I cannot help but feel that Joe is only as good as the bloke who last passed through his office doors.:rolleyes:

500N

Thanks for yer honest reply. :ok: I understand what you say. I wonder why the police did not carry a taser? While the deranged man may not have had his way, a taser would have significantly lessened the trauma suffered by the policeman. I can only imagine how the poor bloke or blokess feels after having snuffed the life of another human being even though the shot person had apparently gotten his way - all very sad and a most complex issue.

Andu 13th Feb 2014 05:25


As for Swan, he did his best.
Wow, Ken. Talk about damning with faint praise.

...or are you really saying that you think the man was halfway competent?

Many of the economists who say Australia did the right thing in handling the GFC have about as much credibility as Tim Flannery has on climate change everywhere except the ALPBC. Far too many such 'experts' allow their political leanings - or more often, the political leanings of those they are reporting on - to colour their findings. A bit like the political and social commentators who are now very vocal about asylum seekers after being totally mute for six years while Labor was the agency (not!) handling the issue.

500N 13th Feb 2014 05:29

Andu

"A bit like the political and social commentators who are now very vocal about asylum seekers after being totally mute for six years while Labor was the agency (not!) handling the issue."

Like who ?


One thing I have noticed is those opposed to the AS policy of TA are not very vocal.

500N 13th Feb 2014 05:35

"I wonder why the police did not carry a taser? While the deranged man may not have had his way, a taser would have significantly lessened the trauma suffered by the policeman."

Because we had a cock head of a Chief Commissioner who was all for lovy dovey policing and not cold hard policing although not just her, the one afterwards as well.

And because of the do gooders who jump up and down about them killing people which gets great media coverage, negative coverage for the Gov't.

The do gooders jump up and down if Police shoot someone but then jump up and down when the Police say they want to introduce a "less lethal" method such as Tasers. They even jumped up and down at the introduction of Capsicum spray or OC Foam :ugh::ugh: You can't win with them.

The end result is only Spec Ops teams (2 types in Vic) have them although they are being trialled in some bad areas - Bendigo and a couple of others.
In fact, a Taser was used in Bendigo on the same day as this shooting for the first or second time.

The fact is, this was a classic case where a Taser might well have allowed him to be disarmed instead of shot, with being shot still an option of last resort.

I have not probs crims being shot but as we both agree, the cop has to deal with it as well.

Worrals in the wilds 13th Feb 2014 06:00


Far too many such 'experts' allow their political leanings - or more often, the political leanings of those they are reporting on - to colour their findings.
That works both ways. :hmm:
Asking someone who they think is a good Treasurer is is like asking someone who they think is a good footy player; almost invariably, a member of a team they support gets the gong. When you add the basic difference in spending philosophy between the right and the left, it's always going to turn into a 'my team is better' argument.


Nor do Treasurers operate in a vaccum. They are subject to the govermment and PM of the day (unless they were Paul Keating :E) and the prevailing economic conditions at the time. Some Treasurers had it a hell of a lot easier than others, thanks to being in the position during boom periods and/or working within a benign government. Swan had to work with both Rudd and Gillard :ooh:, and had a GFC and a resource slump to deal with, None of which would have been easy. Despite the worst fears (or hopes :}) of the right, the economy didn't collapse under Swan, and it's unfair to suggest otherwise. Whether that was by good luck or good management is bound to turn into a partisan debate, because TBQH I don't think many people really know for sure. :suspect:

500N, thanks for the clarification re freeways. As for Tasers, I'd rather be shot by a Taser than a firearm :uhoh:. There have been fatalities (usually due to pre-existing heart conditions IIRC) but they're comparatively rare.

Andu 13th Feb 2014 06:12


Like who ?
There's this bloke for one.

]News : JAKARTA POST JOURNO WANTS MORRISON CHARGED : The Pickering Post

Along with every talking head on the ALPBC. We never heard a word about the arriving boats from the ALPBC during the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd years, but the moment the Libs came to power, every boat - and every burnt palm of the hand - became headline news.

500N 13th Feb 2014 06:18

Andu

Another left wing mouth peace.

I am not sure you can charge Military personnel with Piracy as they are members of a state armed defence force acting under orders of a legitimate elected Gov't. Piracy relates to "non state" people.

bosnich71 13th Feb 2014 07:02

Andu .... " Max Lane, who teaches politics at Victoria University".... says it all really.
Anyway while the chardonnay mob are whinging it is worth remembering that it was the Indons who themselves did a bit of invading back in the 60s'. Didn't hear any lefty complaining in those days though.

7x7 13th Feb 2014 07:08

From the Pickering site (you can ignore it, Ken).


Switzerland has voted by a narrow majority in a referendum to put a limit on immigration numbers. The far right sponsored the referendum but the community has decided the matter, not politicians, because of their system of government.

The underlying concern across Switzerland appears to be the growing number of minarets and the locals are rejecting them. The Swiss response is following in the footsteps of many European countries which are reviewing their approach to immigration of muslims and curbing their customs.

Predictably, the EU has called the vote as anti-European and the change in Swiss policy may require a review of relations between EU member countries and the Swiss.

Since Switzerland isn't in the EU, comments by Brussels will fall on deaf ears.

According to the French Foreign Minister, the free movement of workers between France and Switzerland is threatened, therefore, the entire bilateral trade agreement with Switzerland will come under review. But since the French and Swiss are bed fellows, itíll be business as usual.

On PBS news (SBS) this afternoon, a US academic summed up the development in these terms : the principal issues at play are
ē limiting immigration, especially from muslim countries,
ē regaining sovereign control.

In the EU context, these are core issues which are bringing major EU partners into conflict with the European Parliament. The trend against muslim immigration and regaining and exercising sovereign rights is accelerating.

The bottom line: the majority of Australians are not alone in questioning the wisdom of maintaining current immigration policies and approaches towards muslims.

Itís time to act.

Ken Borough 13th Feb 2014 07:16

7x7

I have! Next? :ok:

500N 13th Feb 2014 07:19

7x7

What I read the other day was the EU said they will PUNISH Switzerland for that vote.

I nearly fell of my chair when I read it as I though Hitler had been defeated in WWII !!!

This is worth reading. Two things that come out of it. What the Swiss voted for was SOME controls and was not nearly as strongly worded as reported. And that other EU countries, IF given a vote would vote the same way !!!
The EU can't afford to punish Switzerland ? Telegraph Blogs


As you say, I think more and more countries are going to be taking back control from people like the UN and EU, IF the rules or whatever do not suit them at that time. Just like TA is totally ignoring the UN at the moment.

500N 13th Feb 2014 07:20

Ken

Do tell. What have you done ?


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