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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

500N 2nd Feb 2014 22:49

It won't take anything.

TA, Howard and others have just determined it is far easier to ignore
the The UN Refugee Convention than try to get out of it.

So it doesn't matter whether it is legal or illegal, they just won't ever
get the chance to make it here as they can apply for Asylum from plenty
of other places through the correct channels.

rh200 2nd Feb 2014 22:58


Endeavouring to enter Australia via illegal means, (without visas) and deliberately destroying their travel documents and other forms of ID may not be criminal but it is certainly illegal.
And thats the point the left choose to ignore. Most of these people come via Malaysia and Indonesia, as a rule they have entered and left these countries with the appropriate documentation.

The fact they choose to destroy it so as to make it hard to determine there status is in itself a crime.

alisoncc 2nd Feb 2014 23:02

Australia's problem is a mere drop in the bucket within the context of the squillions of people on the move all over the planet. Whether it's the US trying desperately to protect it's Southern borders from illegal entry, the Italians on Lampedusa trying equally desperately to stop African migrants or the current issues in the UK with migrants from newer EU entrants - Eastern Europe.

There is a simple reality here. Massively improved communication channels - Internet, radio TV, etc., have shown the common man that the pastures the other side of the mountain are much much greener. The difficulty lies in the belief by those residing the other side of the mountain that the greener pastures there have come about, to a great extent, from their own efforts. They put in the irrigation channels, and bought and spread the fertiliser.

This is the big picture that needs to be addressed. Not by a bunch of morons trying to exploit local issues for political gain. Whether it's the Left and their cohorts happy to let everyone in, or the Right and their advocates seeking to build a new Berlin Wall, is there any chance of a real solution to the problem of people movement in the 21st century?

Babies overboard, burnt ID's, economic or genuine refugees, people smugglers, they are all symptoms of a much greater problem that will need to be addressed before armed conflicts erupt.

Airey Belvoir 2nd Feb 2014 23:14


The problem as I see it is not having the ability to quickly differentiate the difference between the genuine political refugee and the economic refugee. I think if the authorities can achieve this, well quickly see resolution of the 'boat people crisis'

As others have said - we are all in agreement with this point of view :D


The average Aussie does have regard for his fellow man and would quite happily take in the genuine refugee. However, as Ken so eloquently puts it, many of them are not genuine refugees - they are trying to skip the queue because of economic reasons and in doing so deliberately destroy their means of identification (there's probably a law about wilfully destroying your passport). That's why they are in detention. It gives time to establish who the hell they actually are. And that's the point that Sarah No Brain and other fellow travellers fail to see.


Do we forget so easily the vision of those steroid pumped individuals with their laptops and bling who are probably destined for the street gangs and drug empires of western Sydney? Can we really compare them to the blighted families that have patiently endured the hell of refugee camps in Somalia and elsewhere purely for a chance to give their kids a better life in a democratic country?

Dark Knight 2nd Feb 2014 23:20

Re myth No4: as usual there is much more to this than as quoted in that asylum should be claimed in the country first entered.

The UN convention also recognises and defines economic migrants/ migration.

Should we as an Australian citizen attempt to enter any country without being granted the privilege; given permission by that country to enter then we are deemed to have attempted to enter said country illegally usually to be detained and deported forthwith.

Try entering Indonesia, Malaysia or Saudia Arabia without a vise and see how far you get!

Should we not protect OUR country equally?

Should we not say who we grant the privilege to, give permission to enter OUR country?

Note the words privilege and permission!

500N 2nd Feb 2014 23:32

On a lighter note re no ID's, I was reading the other day about a flight from ? Malaysia ? of Vietnamese refugees by Qantas where they jam packed them in. (It might have been on PPRuNe).

Anyway, a number of babies did not have names and were without parents.
The Captain solved that by naming them "Koala Blue" etc and that is how
they entered the country.

Things were so much simpler then !!!

owen meaney 2nd Feb 2014 23:40

Allisoncc, that is also how I see this eventuating, armed guards at the border.

alisoncc 2nd Feb 2014 23:52

I am hopeful that Gaia will intervene with a decent plague.

Ken Borough 3rd Feb 2014 00:00


Things were so much simpler then !!!
Too bloody right they were! We in Oz weren't quire so xenophobic, greedy or selfish. Our politicians didn't try to 'divide and rule'. Australia was a much gentler, kinder and understanding society. The current LNP guvmint wants to take us back, but not to that kind of environment.

owen meaney 3rd Feb 2014 01:08


I am hopeful that Gaia will intervene with a decent plague.
Without the strict control "we" are trying to implement this is probably a certainty.

Dark Knight 3rd Feb 2014 01:11

Ken; I do not think it is about xenophobia, greed or selfishness or our politicians trying to divide and rule though the previous lot demonstrated a more than significant desire to do this.

I say again, it is about protecting OUR country; Protect it of Lose it!

Re myth No4: as usual there is much more to this than as quoted in that asylum should be claimed in the country first entered.

The UN convention also recognises and defines economic migrants/ migration.

Should we as an Australian citizen attempt to enter any country without being granted the privilege; given permission by that country to enter then we are deemed to have attempted to enter said country illegally usually to be detained and deported forthwith.

Try entering Indonesia, Malaysia or Saudia Arabia without a vise and see how far you get!

Should we not protect OUR country equally?

Should we not say who we grant the privilege to, give permission to enter OUR country?

Note the words privilege and permission!

Would you allow me or anyone else to enter your home, move in, provide for me without the above?

parabellum 3rd Feb 2014 03:05


What does it take for otherwise intelligent people to be convinced of this undeniable fact, unless of course you're TA, SM or the most forgettable Member for Lindsey?

Huge difference between arriving without documents because they are running scared from people who will kill you if they catch you and people who deliberately destroy their documents in order to conceal their identity and family history because they know they don't meet the requirements for immigration or asylum. And in case you are in any doubt Ken, these people on the boats needed documents to get as far as Indonesia. Been personally involved* in asylum seekers who have blocked the toilet on the aeroplane with their documents.


* I was the skipper.

Ken Borough 3rd Feb 2014 03:20

Para,

I agree that this is the problem but how do you differentiate between the genuine and the not so genuine? And are we sure that all AS destroy their documents if identity? Indonesia is so bloody corrupt it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that there's a scam or two that allows people get into the country without genuine documents. I don't know how CBR will solve the matter - we can bang on about it all day long but as sure as hell, CBR won't be consulting PPRUNE! All that said, everyone has to be given the initial benefit of the doubt until their real status is determined. :{.

By the way, when did we hear SM or TA claim that they were now saving lives being potentially lost at sea? Hypocrites. :E

Captain Sand Dune 3rd Feb 2014 03:23

This’ll get the dole bludgers and the welfare industry up in arms. Might also send a signal to our economic ‘refugees’.

TREASURER Joe Hockey has warned that the age of entitlement is over and it was time for all Australians to do their fair share of heavy lifting.
Making clear taxpayer hand-outs are now under tough restrictions, Mr Hockey told ABC Radio that the age of personal responsibility has begun.
And he appeared cool towards a proposal that Agricultural Minister Barnaby Joyce is expected to take to cabinet for a multi-billion bailout of meat and agricultural industries.
Mr Hockey couldn't commit to a plan he hadn't seen but said the rural industries, now stressed by severe drought, also had good times and had to prepare for the swings and roundabouts.
Australians were also told to better manage their personal finances at a time when interest rates are at unusual lows.
"So if people are having problems coping with interest rates now then there is a bigger systemic issues at play," Mr Hockey said.
His comments were among the strongest indications yet made by Mr Hockey in government that the May Budget will be tough on spending in all sectors with little mercy for corporations seeking assistance.
The government is facing continued demands to assist Holden in South Australia and fruit canner SPC Ardmona in Victoria.
But it is standing firm that companies have to sort out their own problems out, particularly on the shop floor.
Mr Hockey said if companies reach expensive deals with workers, "please do not come to the government asking for other taxpayers' money when those agreements fail".
That will be seen as a message to Toyota, the only remaining car maker not to have closure plans.
"I say to you emphatically, everyone in Australia must do the heavy lifting. The age of entitlement is over, the age of personal responsibility has begun,'' he said.
"We need to help those people who are most vulnerable in our community. That is our duty and we will do that.
"But we can only do that on a sustainable basis. It can only be done if everyone who has the capacity to lift does indeed lift.''
Welfare groups are urging the Government to limit major cuts to so-called middle class welfare and well-off wage earners.
Mr Hockey's warning comes as charity group Anglicare said it feared the Budget would leave behind "the most marginalised members of Australian society''.
"Any expenditure cuts ought be directed at the sectors of society which are highly profitable, where people are comfortably well-off, and where government is funding what people can reasonably expect to do for themselves," Anglicare chief executive Kasy Chambers said.

500N 3rd Feb 2014 03:30

"That will be seen as a message to Toyota,"

How about the unions ?

I read the other day that one of the awards the car unions got for Toyota workers in the past was 3 or 4 hours paid time off to go and give blood.
I nearly fell over.

Paid for a start but 3 - 4 hours ?
And the blood bank will come to you if you have enough people but why should Toyota have to pay for the time anyway as the end result is we all pay for it.

Ken Borough 3rd Feb 2014 03:33

Joe Hockey talking about 'heavy lifting'! Joes looks as though he's spent his lifetime propping up the bar at his local RSL.

Seriously though, a good cleaner does need to go through some of the welfare recipient gene pool. Hockey also needs to take a long hard look at the many tax rorts and loopholes practiced by the better-off in our society. There's little point in always going after those who can defend themselves least. :=

owen meaney 3rd Feb 2014 03:52

Well said Ken, the idea that an investor gets tax break on a house mortgage and a house owner gets nothing is the weirdest notion I have seen.
This tax break for the wealthy has been the driving force behind house prices for the last 20 years; and has driven the rental market to sky high prices.
Muck fee, this is exactly the same as owing ones soul to the company store.

Captain Sand Dune 3rd Feb 2014 03:55


Joes looks as though he's spent his lifetime propping up the bar at his local RSL.
He could afford to lose a few more pounds, but he looks a lot fitter these days compared to about 12 months ago!

A good cleaner does need to go through some of the welfare recipient gene pool
Ain’t that the truth! There are generations of ‘welfare families’ in this country who will scream like stuck pigs when they have to actually get off their asses to get their money. However Joe will be fighting against a well entrenched sense of entitlement that has crept into the Australian psyche over the last few decades.

CoodaShooda 3rd Feb 2014 04:13


the idea that an investor gets tax break on a house mortgage and a house owner gets nothing is the weirdest notion I have seen.
Didn't Keating try to kill off 'negative gearing'?

I have a vague memory that the effect on the housing sector was greater than he had foreseen and the tax breaks were brought back.

But I'm happy to be corrected.

500N 3rd Feb 2014 04:14

Cooda

I think you are correct in what you say.


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