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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Andu 12th Jan 2014 07:32

Worrals, I understand that 30,000 Chinese migrants came to Australia on the backs of the couple of hundred Chinese students who were here when the Tienanmen Square protests occurred in Beijing. (All a Chinese in Australia had to do was get him/herself photographed protesting against the the crackdown and Bob ['orke] was literally yer Uncle.)

Quite a few were caught indulging in serial marriages to get successive brides into the country. My wife worked in the visa section of the Oz Consulate in a well-known Middle Eastern city for some time. She came home almost nightly with tales of the most extraordinary dodges would-be immigrants to Australia tried to pull. (Quite a few left Australia and returned to the Middle East [where many had their businesses] the moment they got their Australian papers, sometimes leaving their wives and children behind in Australia.)

Others, having been granted right of abode in Australia, (which had to be availed within three years of approval), would go to extraordinary lengths to try to extend that time. (They wanted the bolt hole, but didn't want to leave the way of life they knew 'just yet'.)

Every day in the local papers, you could see advertisements from three or four agencies guaranteeing successful migration to Australia or Canada - for a hefty fee. Some of these agencies were dodgy in the extreme.

SOPS 12th Jan 2014 07:46

Those pictures we were treated to a few months ago of chemically enhanced individuals coming ashore, remember them? Well they did not look like poor, down trodden refugees to me. Like wise the ladies with the fashion label t shirts and lap tops.

They are economic country shoppers, as some from Lebanon ave recently admitted.

rh200 12th Jan 2014 10:51

The people coing in these wretched boats are neither armed nor equipped to 'invade' our shores
Those wretched people chose to get in those boats in a country that was not persercuting them, neither was the country before that.

They are (mostly) coming in search of a peaceful place, having fled from tyranny and persecution.
I'm not really aware of the particular technicalities, but am confident that the UN convention doesn't give you the choice of what country you get to live in.

In fact the couple of countries they have traveled though, and lived in on their journey where stable and a lot closer to their cultures than ours.

SOPS 12th Jan 2014 10:55

Well said rh200. The trouble is, there are many including my lefty sister, that can't see this. They seem to think that the only country that these 'refugees' can go to between the one they fled from and Australia, is indeed Australia.

500N 12th Jan 2014 20:18

No, I'm not going soft and becoming a lefty :O but we talk about AS, Overseas aid to countries etc.

Article in today's Age re how little it would cost to get people off the street.

And that's just
homelessness. Wasn't it Bob Hawke who said something
about no child would be living in poverty by XXXX year ?

I sometimes wonder why we are giving aid to some overseas countries
yet we can't even get some people off the street in our own and I'm not
talking about "Long Grassers".

The end of homelessness
The end of homelessness

Street homelessness could be eliminated in Victoria within 10 years if the government spent less than $15 million a year on new homes and support, the state's peak homelessness body says.

The Council to Homeless Persons has put a plan to the government to get the 1092 people estimated to be sleeping rough in the last census off Victorian streets and into their own homes by 2024.

At a net cost of $143 million, the 10-year investment is just half the figure pledged by the Napthine government on Sunday for new tennis facilities at Melbourne Park.

Read more in the link above.

chuboy 12th Jan 2014 20:23

Giving money to the homeless? That sounds like socialism to me. If they had any inclination to spend taxpayer-funded charity wisely they wouldn't be homeless in the first place.

You can't help everyone/not everyone can be helped, etc etc.

500N 12th Jan 2014 20:41

I am not saying give money to the homeless and I totally agree that
some people don't want to be helped.

I am just saying that maybe some money spent on giving a leg up
to those who want it and hopefully getting them off the poverty cycle.

I have no problems if conditions are placed on these things.

Worrals in the wilds 12th Jan 2014 21:09

I think chuboy had the :} engaged ;).
IMO fixing the various state mental health systems and drug/grog rehab clinics would do a lot to ease the homelessness problem.

Andu, it doesn't surprise me.

Andu 12th Jan 2014 21:44

Re whether uninvited migrants should be classed as invaders or whether they should not: to those who say that, because they do not come armed, they cannot be classed as invaders, may I ask: do you have a figure in mind at which the number of uninvited (but unarmed) migrants would begin to make you begin to feel uncomfortable?

Let's be totally hypothetical for one moment, and by that, I mean, let's not even imagine for one moment that this might actually happen.

...so we're being hypothetical, right?

The situation in North Korea becomes so dire that the government there simply cannot feed 75% of its people. It realises that desperate measures are required or the nation faces total catastrophe, even oblivion. If it tries to feed everyone, come the next winter, no one will have enough to survive. So it elects to offload its less useful citizens, starting with its old, its sick, its less well educated and its less skilled, followed by all its soldiers who are now over the age of forty, along with their immediate and extended families. That turns out to be not quite enough, so it decides to include anyone who has exhibited 'anti-social' traits (i.e., its prison population and anyone who has ever come to the attention of the police for any reason at all). And bugger it, we'll have to take the age for ex-soldiers down to thirty-five.

It hires a dozen - no, it will require more than that, make it forty or fifty - huge bulk carriers and outfits them with bunk beds ten high, squeezing many tens of thousands of people onto each.

- and sends them to Australia, where, (they assure the people on the boats and an all too ready to believe world media and a compliant UN), there's lots of 'wasted space' and plentiful areas where subsistence farmers could eke out a far better living for themselves than those same subsistence farmers can in the harsh climate and unforgiving soils of North Korea. (Remember everybody - these people face certain death if they are not able to leave starving North Korea. To refuse them entry is to sentence them to death.)

...and remember too, Ken Borough and those of like mind, by your definition we can't class these people as invaders, because they aren't coming armed.

At what point would you (by you, I mean Ken, Ethel and those of like mind) start to feel uncomfortable?

Bulk carrier # 3?



I mean, no matter how merciful and accepting you are - maybe you're right up there with Sarah Hanson-Young - you'd have to accept that it's a given that eventually, (by bulk carrier #'n'), Australia would be unable to provide the levels of welfare to the new arrivals that it currently provides to all its uninvited.

The new arrivals would eventually be forced to walk off the ships and fend for themselves. The very best we could hope for would be that the ex-soldiers among them would magically forget their military training and would not put that training to use in taking - by force - from the (what to them would seem) fabulously wealthy UNARMED natives.

At the very best, we could hope that they move into the countryside and peacefully set up carbon copies of what is familiar to them, i.e., what they came from - subsistence farming communities made up totally of people who came off the bulk carriers.

They'd have no reason ever to learn to speak English or in any way to assimilate. In fact, they'd set up little clone North Koreas all over Australia, and quite possibly, in between major bushfires and floods, manage to live a far more comfortable life than they could ever have hoped to do in North Korea.

But using Ken's set of rules, we couldn't class their mass arrival as an invasion, because they didn't come armed and in uniform.

And neither would the large continent just south of New Guinea still be anything like the Australia we know today.

John Hill 12th Jan 2014 21:58

So it elects to offload its less useful citizens...
That has been done before, both England and NZ offloaded less useful citizens to Australia...:)

CoodaShooda 12th Jan 2014 22:06

Far from it John.

The English Establishment just sought to rid itself of that self-reliant element which refused to lie down and starve in the gutters.

Organised crime hates competition. :E

parabellum 12th Jan 2014 22:28

They are (mostly) coming in search of a peaceful place, having fled from tyranny and persecution

Not so, proven many times. Some Afghani tribes are genuinely in fear of their lives, the Hazaras for one, otherwise anyone who turns up without papers, by boat from Indonesia, is a fraud.

I fear that after bulk carrier from N. Korea, #3 the Dingo would become extinct, followed by many other native species!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif

Pappa Smurf 13th Jan 2014 00:04

With foreign aid,how much actually goes to where it is needed and not into the hands of the corrupt

bosnich71 13th Jan 2014 00:40

500N ..... ref. your post about homeless people in Melbourne, there are also a number of uninhabited married quarters and barrack blocks at RAAF Bases Point Cook and Laverton. They have been empty for years despite the fact that there are, literally, thousands on the streets of Melbourne every night of the week. No doubt there are other examples in other parts of Oz.
The same thing is happening in Britain. There are many ex RAF bases which have been vacated by the armed forces and which are just crumbling into decay. Anyone who wishes to check this only has to visit the 'Airfield Information Exchange' web site.
If either the Australian or the British governments had any concerns whatsoever about homeless people in their respective countries then there is, at least. a partial answer. The fact that nothing is done merely underlines,to me at least, that they .... respective governments of both sides of politics .... do not care. If it is a case of a shortage of funding to effect repairs etc. to these properties then perhaps a cessation of foreign "Aid" could be undertaken until such time that the problems in regards to homelessness in both countries was fixed.
Don't hold your breath !

Airey Belvoir 13th Jan 2014 00:44

imagine for one moment that this might actually happen.
나랑. 그건 큰 문제가 같은 소리와 트롤 다시 것 같습니다. !!!!!

500N 13th Jan 2014 00:55


I noticed they were empty when I went down to Pt Cook before Xmas.

Laverton is a ghost town to what it used to be so can well imagine
quite a few houses / buildings are empty.

bosnich71 13th Jan 2014 03:10

500 ..... the Point Cook houses were empty when I used to ride my bike ... push bike that is..... around there years ago. Perhaps successive Federal governments are waiting for the North Koreans to arrive. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...cons/icon7.gif

Andu has a point. No one, including those on this site who think as Sarah Two Dads does, can give an answer as to if there is actually a limit on the numbers of arrivals that can be successfully handled by the various countries in the world who are expected to open their doors to anyone wishing to avail themselves of those country's hospitality. Is there a limit even ?
I might listen to the likes of Sarah if she were to show some empathy to those already in Australia and are in strife whether they were Australian born or have arrived here as genuine Refugees or Immigrants. However she is either never asked about that scenario or she chooses to ignore problems in the country of which she is an elected representative of the people. They should be her first priority not those who have chosen to circumvent the rules put into place by the elected government of the da.

Worrals in the wilds 13th Jan 2014 03:53

Interesting hypothetical, and my guess is that you're basing it on the alleged actions of Caucescu's Rumanian government in the early 90s...:suspect:

However, do they fit the Convention's definition of a refugee?

and owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country;
What race, religion etc is being persecuted in this instance? I suppose it could be argued that they were being persecuted purely for being North Koreans, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

Either way, if your hypothetical happened, I think it would become a global problem very quickly, as it has with previous mass exodus from Vietnam, Cambodia and even Ireland (prior to the Convention). The number of signatory nations they'd sail past on the way would add weight to that.

parabellum 13th Jan 2014 04:41

Some of the barrack style accommodation at Pt. Cook is used from time to time by reservists and cadets.

7x7 13th Jan 2014 05:08

To make Andu's hypothesis a little more contemporary, (and maybe a little more believable to some), how about this minor revision?

The Syrian war ends with one side winning decisively. Those who backed the losing side cannot return home. A super rich sheik from one of the Gulf states (or maybe Saudi, or maybe [email protected]) leases a dozen supertankers and fits them out for mass crumple class with... I don't know... 40,000, maybe 50,000 hopefuls per ship?

And after a much publicised journey from Syria, (with the ALPBC and Fairfax positively slavering with glee with hourly updates each and every day of the journey), they steam through Sydney Heads and pull up off Circular Quay?

What's the Australian Government going to do? Torpedo them? We all know that will never happen, but let's get totally fanciful for a moment and say that's actually an option. What are we going to do that with? It might be do-able if we can drag the old O Boat out from the floating museum at Darling Harbour and re-fit it and drag in a bunch of aging RAN reservists who could operate the boat, for I don't think we could rely on the Collins Class to do the job, even surfaced.

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