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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

Andu 8th Jan 2014 06:59

Slight change of subject. NineMSM are running an online poll "Should asylum seekers be taken back to Indonesia?" The current voting is: -

No: 5274
Yes: 44535

500N 8th Jan 2014 07:03

Wow, that is quite a lead. Doesn't surprise me though.

I wonder how long Australia will stay right of centre ?

Will be interesting to see.

rh200 8th Jan 2014 08:09


Offensive and factually incorrect. The Commonwealth of Australia came into being on the First of January, 1901 http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ilies/nerd.gif. Prior to that there was no country called Australia.
That would technically be correct Worrals, but philosophically its 1788 as the start of building the nation.

I'm sick of hearing bleeding heart people moaning about how the nation came about, frankly in the grand scheme of how peoples around the world have been conquered or assimilated they got off lightly. There's nothing abnormal about what happened to them, in fact its natural.

Whats does that mean, the pom's where no different to any other society that evolved enough to expand and did.

Worrals in the wilds 8th Jan 2014 09:12


That would technically be correct Worrals, but philosophically its 1788 as the start of building the nation.
I respectfully disagree. I think January 25th, 1788 is an important date to commemorate and I don't hold with all the Sorry Day palaver, but Australia as a nation (rather than a number of independent colonies) was created in 1901 after several decades of discussion between and within those colonies.

Captain Phillip's mission didn't have anything to do with creating a nation; it was about removing criminals from the overcrowded UK prison system and putting them out of mind and out of sight. The nation was later built in spite of that, not because of it; by enterprising immigrants (and former convicts of course, not to mention indigenous people who worked as stockmen, trackers and so forth) throughout the 19th century, who worked their collective butts off. The First Fleet's charter was not to create a nation and the concept of Australia as a country wasn't really considered until the 1830s at the earliest. Before then, people across the continent were too busy surviving.

That Australia was created by Act of Parliament without a war, without bloodshed and by (more or less :}) civilised discussion is one of our greatest national achievements. However, it tends to get crowded out by happy noise about convicts and the First Fleet. I don't want to denigrate the First Fleet's achievements. The fact that they even survived is amazing, but I don't see their landing as the creation of Australia (the colony of New South Wales, yes) because that wasn't their intention.
Anyway, just my

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...an_2c_Coin.png
:)

Fliegenmong 8th Jan 2014 09:38

Asylum seekers on boats turned back to Indonesia say Australian Navy mistreated them - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Oh boo hoo!, mistreated were you! Like the way you'll mistreat your womenfolk here, and then claim you have a cultural right to mistreat them!!

Jaysus wept!!

Andu 8th Jan 2014 09:48

Worrals, the sad fact is that 99% of what I'll term the 'professionally and always - but always - outraged brigade' wouldn't have an inkling of any of the details of the history of this nation that you've just described. Unless there's a black armband attached to it, they aren't interested and can never be made so.

Andu 8th Jan 2014 09:55

Fleigs, after reading that report, my first impression is that after six years of imbecility under the misguided direction of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd rabble who posed as a government, the Naval personnel involved in border protection must be breathing huge sighs of relief as they are AT LAST being allowed to do their job.

Worrals in the wilds 8th Jan 2014 10:09

Andu, for sure.
I don't object to January 25th being Australia Day. People have a lot of fun dressing up as convicts, sailors and similar, which is all fairly harmless. From a practical POV January 1st is a terrible day for a national holiday :uhoh: and January 25th sits conveniently at the end of the holiday season.

However, I think it's important to be a bit respectful about it and recognize that many indigenous people don't see it as inclusive. Presumably there are aristrocratic French people who feel the same way about Bastille Day :}.
Unfortunately it's also been marred in recent years with feral, drunken violence, which is a shame. :(
No Cookies | Herald Sun

500N 8th Jan 2014 10:22

Re the "mistreatment"

""And then they take them aboard and then they beat them and they hung on their hands.""

That would be BS of the highest order.

No way would Navy Officers and NCO's allow that to happen, even if they wanted to, instant termination of many people's careers.

And you can bet a fair bit of all this is filmed as well.

Fliegenmong 8th Jan 2014 10:29

I know ANDU!, and how many years of imbecility under the misguided direction of the Abbott / Turnbull / who knows who / rabble who will be posing as a government?

There is not really much at all between them, except the venom of their respective supporters......ABC (regrettably) or MSM (at the extreme opposite)

Worrals in the wilds 8th Jan 2014 10:37

500N, in the absence of actual evidence I tend to agree.

Speaking from Kupang in Indonesia, two men from two separate journeys have described their experiences to the media for the first time. Though difficult to verify, both men's stories are strikingly similar.
That doesn't make them true, and 'difficult to verify' probably counts as the understatement of the year.

"Not just punching me but they [punched] ... people who were complaining," he said.
If it actually happened (and we only have his word for it), were any of the boatpeople punching first? The ABC didn't get around to asking that question. :suspect:

500N 8th Jan 2014 10:41

I happened to spend a short amount of time with a senior sailor
from one of the patrol boats when up NT way over Xmas. And
you can guess what we discussed !!! ;)

Apart from it being unlikely anyway, the focus on bastardisation,
mistreatment, etc etc on Navy boats at the moment and in the
military generally, especially on a spotlighted op like these, jesus
you'd be game.

Seaeagle109 8th Jan 2014 11:01

OK, I'll be the pedant.

Isn't Australia Day, or Invasion Day or whatever you might want to call it, the 26th of January or has it been changed without me being aware of it?

500N 8th Jan 2014 11:14

Yes, you are correct. That's what my Naturalization certificate says :O

Worrals in the wilds 8th Jan 2014 11:19

Sorry, you're right. :O
Needless to say I don't celebrate it. :}
Queensland Day is June 6th, and I didn't even have to look it up. :\
http://www.qld.gov.au/about/assets/i...state-flag.jpg

rh200 8th Jan 2014 11:32


Captain Phillip's mission didn't have anything to do with creating a nation; it was about removing criminals from the overcrowded UK prison system and putting them out of mind and out of sight.
Very true, but as always people have views on the meaning of things:ok:. I still see it as the seed or the first brick if you will.:p As for people who feel sensitive about some things, you are correct we should be respectful to a point.


indigenous people who worked as stockmen, trackers and so forth) throughout the 19th century, who worked their collective butts off.
Well into the 20th century for the stockmans case.


Re the "mistreatment"
Like F#$%k there has been, sounds like another PR excercise to me, wonder if SHY has been giving tips though contacts.
Though not impossible I would need some really convincing evidence to even entertain the thought. These F#$%ers have contacts and no how to manipulate.

500N 8th Jan 2014 11:33

I don't know that many Aussies who celebrate it either.

Most seem to take it as an extra day off work and go about
doing something with the family, BBQ etc or camping.

rh200 8th Jan 2014 11:41


Unfortunately it's also been marred in recent years with feral, drunken violence, which is a shame.

Most seem to take it as an extra day off work and go about
doing something with the family, BBQ etc or camping.
If only most of the people did the latter I would be a happy man, least its sort of wholesome and healthy. But sadly its getting more and more as Worrals said, a growing number of people becoming human garbage and using as an excuse for bad behavior. Though its the same for most of the public holidays.

500N 8th Jan 2014 11:43

"indigenous people who worked as stockmen, trackers and so forth) throughout the 19th century, who worked their collective butts off."
"Well into the 20th century for the stockmans case."

Agree. And shooters, hide washers and salters up north for many years
up until the war.


Re "frankly in the grand scheme of how peoples around the world have been conquered or assimilated they got off lightly. There's nothing abnormal about what happened to them, in fact its natural."


I think the whites did a pretty good job of wiping out the Aboriginals in the first 150 years, either by organised hunts or just by default of (accidently) spreading diseases like small pox (Ref Ludwig Leichhardt, trip across NT way where he was helped by Aborignals, 50 years later the majority had been wiped out by Small Pox - South Alligator / Kakadu region if anyone is interested in looking into it further).

Worrals in the wilds 8th Jan 2014 11:44


Very true, but as always people have views on the meaning of thingshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif. I still see it as the seed or the first brick if you will.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/tongue.gif
Fair enough. :)

go about doing something with the family, BBQ etc or camping.
Alongside 20 million other Australians competing for the same barbies and camping spots :ouch:, along with the entire contingent of state police officers making sure everyone driving a car or steering a boat blows in the bag every five minutes. :}


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