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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

bankrunner 25th Nov 2013 00:00

Originally Posted by Clare Prop
the phone taps were in 2009 when Rudd was PM. Snowden leaked the info in June when Rudd was PM.

If you're going to blame Kevin Rudd, you may as well blame Ben Chifley and every other PM we've had since 1947.

Australia has been in the peacetime signals intelligence business since the end of WWII.

It'd be pretty naive to believe that successive Australian governments (of both flavours) have maintained and expanded that sort of capability for any reason other than keeping an eye on the leadership of regional powers, especially Indonesia.

What else would we use it for? Pirating foreign pay TV?

It'd also be silly to think Indonesia didn't also know that, but now that it's public they've got something they can milk the shit out of politically.

Worrals in the wilds 25th Nov 2013 02:57

Only 1400 surveyed via landline and conducted for The Age :hmm:, but still...
37-41 is a pretty speedy recovery for Labor.
Labor storms ahead
'Labor storms back to where it should be' would probably be a more accurate headline, but...
1. it's The Age and
2. it's the first genuinely good political news some of us lefty types have read in years,so they may have been a bit excited.:ok::}

However, Shorten should take heed of the 57-38 in-favour result to the question 'should Labor vote to abolish the carbon tax'? That's pretty decisive. :uhoh:

Almost everything else seems to be about fifty fifty, which is back to where it should be. I guess that the right wing media commentators who predicted and prayed that post defeat, Labor would trip over its shoelaces and crash and burn are feeling a little :( right now. :)

It'd also be silly to think Indonesia didn't also know that, but now that it's public they've got something they can milk the shit out of politically.
Agreed. An AJ mate reckons that the main reason they're cranky is because they're not as good at it as we are. :suspect::}

500N 25th Nov 2013 03:11

"I guess that the right wing media commentators who predicted and prayed that post defeat, Labor would trip over its shoelaces and crash and burn are feeling a little http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/sowee.gif right now."

Plenty of time yet, plenty of time yet :O ;)

500N 25th Nov 2013 03:13

"An AJ mate reckons that the main reason they're cranky is because they're not as good at it as we are. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/cwm13.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif "

+ 100

They hate it that we as in Aus beat them Politically and militarily (when the
two have got into a gunfight that is) and the fact that we have this huge country
that they don't think we utilize !!!

Worrals in the wilds 25th Nov 2013 03:13

That goes both ways. :E:}

bankrunner 25th Nov 2013 04:26

It's not so much about what the ALP have done since the election, but more what they haven't done :E Shorten has for the most part, quite wisely been keeping his mouth shut, and that's actually been out working out pretty well for him.

Shorten is flying under the radar while the ABC et al go out and hang Abbott out to dry over his refugee boat secrecy, and his handling of the Indonesian phone surveillance fiasco.

Fliegenmong 25th Nov 2013 09:08

Dark Knight, fair enough! :ok:

"Common courtesy, respect and good manners achieve far more than puerile, uneducated rants."

Will let this chap know.....:}

Google Image Result for http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/03/23/1226026/932862-abbott-new.jpg

Is that the speaker of the house on the left??? :sad:

Fliegenmong 25th Nov 2013 12:21

Clearly Mr TA is not a man of Common courtesy, respect or good manners......certainly well versed in the Puerile though..:(

Dark Knight 25th Nov 2013 21:54

Flieg, as you should well know, Mr Abbott or the Liberal party did not organise said signs nor did he choose to stand in front of them, the demonstrators chose to find the best spot for the best media coverage.

Could the same be said of the organisation of the Aboriginal riot from the then Prime Ministers office when Mr Abbott was addressing a meeting/rally?

BenThere 25th Nov 2013 22:05

Clearly Mr TA is not a man of Common courtesy
I find that to be a surprising take, as from all I've seen of the man is he is a paragon of gentlemanliness - polite, respectful, family man, devout.

As such, I'm suspicious that opponents suggesting otherwise may be barking up the wrong tree, and should pursue other vulnerabilities.

One vulnerability is that he doesn't seem to cotton to additional taxation in the name of climate change which has no effect on climate change. You could oppose him on that score, certainly.

Another vulnerability is that he doesn't seem to empathize with those seeking asylum and lifetime welfare in Australia who choose to arrive in illegal vessels, depending that the humanistic and charitable nature of Australians will force them to pick up their tab.

500N 25th Nov 2013 22:07


Two reasons the majority voted for him :ok:

SOPS 25th Nov 2013 22:59

Ben There, very well said.:D:D

Dark Knight 26th Nov 2013 04:00

Internet Shopping...
Australian retailers have been ripping the Aussie consumer off for years; the internet allows the consumer to see just how huge this ripoff is!

Retailing has been changing and evolving since the beginning of time: Aussie retailers should get with it and stop whinging.

Fuel pump from Ford $2750; from the US including freight $475; Front end control arms Ford Aus $1276 from US including shipping $251; Computer book from Aussie book store $75 from Amazon $29.99, etc.

Clear message to Harvey; continue pushing this and I will not shop at HVN again;; in fact why don't we all stop shopping there now until this push is resolved?

Memo to Politicians: change this at your peril!

Call, email, lobby your local MP & Senator NOW!

Read more: GST-free shopping 'totally unfair': Gerry Harvey

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 05:09

I agree, Dark Knight (it was always going to happen one day ;):}).
It would also cost more to administer than was actually collected, which is the reason the threshold was set in the first place.

What GH doesn't like to mention is that an awful lot of internet shopping is done with Australian businesses, both by Aussie and foreign customers. Many of them are small businesses, too; like the sort of small electronics and computer businesses GH sent broke when he started his megastore concept and laid them all flat with his massive buying power. :ouch:

Karma sucks, Gerry. :E

IMO internet shopping is better for small businesses than large ones, if they can adapt. In just one example, one of Brisbane's biggest dive operators recently got rid of their retail / booking shop and now run the whole thing using website/phone and directly from the boat. Their boat seems busier than ever and they save hundreds of thousands of dollars in rent.

There are many similar stories across the country where internet shopping has been a boon. It doesn't matter any more if you run your Rare Books store from Melbourne or a small town in the country, as long as you have a decent website and access to a post office.

The fact that Gerry Harvey, Myer and the usual suspects are whining says to me that it's working out well, both for small retailers and consumers. Labor told them to bugger off last time they ran this up the flag pole, and hopefully the new government will also have too much sense to listen to them.

500N 26th Nov 2013 05:17


I think the $1000 is set too high and was set before "on line" shopping
became the norm. It used to be $400 I think and they had no problem
slugging you on import if it was above this then.

I the Gov't is losing $1 billion, I reckon some scheme could be worked out.
The problem is collection without holding up the parcel.

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 06:38

The problem is collection without holding up the parcel.
And that's almost impossible to get around. You can't require businesses that are based overseas to collect tax for the Australian Government. The GST is a big administrative PITA for Australian businesses as it is, so I can't see foreigners going for it.

A Productivity Commission report in 2011 found solid grounds, in principle, to lower the threshold but concluded that it would not be worth the extra cost of intercepting and opening more low-value parcels
From memory the threshold was increased in about 2006 (:confused:) when online shopping was already around. I'd like to see the research; without making any accusations it sounds a bit like the 'our studies show' rhetoric that accompanies overpriced cosmetics. :hmm: When research is conducted for an organization with a vested interest in the outcome I get suspicious.

Even if the findings are accurate, if it costs the government more to implement than it gains in tax dollars then it's counter-productive. Nor would it factor in lost tax revenue to other countries from their citizens buying products online from Australia, which is to our businesses' benefit.

If it wasn't Myer and GH whinging then I'd be a bit more open to the argument, but the small business associations don't seem to be jumping up and down about online retail. I suspect that's because many small businesses are doing very well out of it at the expense of Myer and HN.

I think the real online threat to GH are the many comparison websites that show various white goods and electronic products available on line from within Australia, at far better prices than HN and Myer are offering for identical products (such as Union Shopper! Pardon the shameless plug :}:}:}). They've spent a generation ripping off Australian consumers because we had no choice, and now their happy little racket is facing some competition (much of it domestic) they're running off crying to Mum. :bored:

500N 26th Nov 2013 06:50


"On line" shopping might have been around but not many were using it.
I was half in the computer industry then and half distribution and even
retailers couldn't see what was coming !!!

Small business retail is suffering ATM, not just from on line but also the economy. OK, some retailers need to "get with it" and the problems are
their own making but it is still hard for them out there.

GST will never be collected by foreign businesses, that is not an option.
And sales on line to OS customers does not attract GST anyway.

Aus has always been a higher margin country. Partly due to business costs
and partly due to lack of volume and of course partly because we are capitalists;) :O

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 06:54

Small business retail is suffering ATM, not just from on line but also the economy. OK
True. These guys aren't small business though. They're Big Business, and Big Businesses that put a lot of small businesses under far more pressure than the internet does. To see Myer (as in the Coles Group, formerly known as Coles Myer) complaining about competition is frankly distasteful :yuk:.

When it comes to fuel, grog, pubs and groceries they have allegedly crushed small opposition businesses, held suppliers to ransom (particularly the little guys), and (also allegedly, but from a local case a friend was involved in) put pressure on the big shopping centres to squash their small competitors. They generally behave like corporate thugs. Ask the Dairy industry what they think about the Coles' approach to free trade. :*

IMO, now they've met a collectively viable competitor they can't intimidate, and they don't like it.

500N 26th Nov 2013 06:57


Yes, agree. Coles and Wollies are the same, both pricks to suppliers.
I have dealt with the Coles Myer group :rolleyes:

SOPS 26th Nov 2013 08:28

As an observation my 17 year old daughter never buys anything in a store, she does all, and I mean all, her shopping on line. ( I should know, it all goes on my credit card!) She says she can't see the point of wandering around stores, when she can browse at home.

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