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Worrals in the wilds 30th Apr 2012 05:03

I.e Lex, they both suck (so to speak:\) and have the collective integrity of a gang of sewer rats. Agreed. As for rhetoric, people are entitled to their opinions. ;)

I think the only moral high ground the Libs can claim on this is 'We didn't make him Speaker' which is why they're flogging that line to death. Maybe if they'd had a minority government they would have done so; but that's conjecture. The ALP did make him Speaker, it has gone bad for them and it's their credibility he's damaging.

I don't think the Libs have come out of this too well, but it's hurting the ALP a lot worse. In addition, the Libs don't have a Thomson, they don't have a tax they claimed would never happen prior to the election (I accept your previous remarks about Howard's many backpedals, but the CT backpedal has been far more blatant and IMO, angered a lot more people), they don't have the Watermelons hanging like endangered albatrosses around their neck squawking, and the list goes on.

If the government had been performing well I don't think the Slipper thing would have been a big problem. The trouble is; they're not. They don't need this.

sisemen 30th Apr 2012 05:18

This government is now in terminal decline and the pace will accelerate. There is nothing they can now do to mollify a sceptical public that is baying for their blood.

Swanny delivering a miniscule surplus at the budget won't do it because the majority of people don't necessarily agree that it's the right thing to do and it is simply a cynical political exercise.

The rumoured subsidy for electricity as a sop to the Carbon Tax won't do it because the vast majority don't want or see the need for such a tax which they think will only hamper Australia economically.

Gillard taking the moral high ground won't do it because virtually everyone in Australia (Labor voters too!) don't believe she knows what the moral high ground is.

And a change of leader won't do it because the voters want rid of the whole rotten pile.

Gillard is now dragging it out to the detriment of the country.

Buster Hyman 30th Apr 2012 06:18


My question is far from irrelevant Buster and I believe it goes to show the state of both sides of politics and not just the usual anti labor rhetoric from most on this thread.
The scheme of things I'm referring to is the current Govt. Lex. We can argue hypotheticals about if the Libs gained power with him, but what is relevant now is who is currently in power & how far they went to get there.

I did concede that your question was valid & the reason there is probably a strong anti-Labour theme here is because they truly stink.

Swings & roundabouts Lex. Your mates will come & back you up again the next time Abbott feeds the Fairfax machine but, in the meantime, I think it's a sad state of affairs that in regards to people like Slipper & Thompson, the only genuine fire you see is on a thread like this. The pigs at the trough have closed ranks. :mad:

Worrals in the wilds 30th Apr 2012 06:47


The pigs at the trough have closed ranks. :mad:
The pigs at the trough are looking very lonely.:E The rapidly declining ALP membership has been discussed in several media articles. Of course they don't advertise their numbers, but anecdotally there are a lot of people either resigning or not joining in the first place.

"In NSW, thanks to Luke Foley, party leader in the Legislative Council who burrowed in ratholes where he was not supposed to go, we know membership had fallen to 15,389 in 2009. The whispered number this year is 8500. In 1911 it was 92,000. In the 1970s it was about 22,000. Not to publish the present number of members will attest the reform announcements are bunkum. Which, of course, they are".
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
The whole article is worth a read. It's from last September, but probably even more relevant now.

Trade union membership is also declining rapidly, sitting at about 10% of the population. They're a rapidly ageing 10% too, and concentrated in a few particular industries.

These sort of scandals only hasten the decline. Try talking people into parting with their hard earned cash to join a union when Thomson's credit card receipts are being splashed all over the news night after night :mad:. You can point out that it's a different mob until you're blue in the face, but mud sticks, and it's sticking to all the decent unions (and unionists) too. :sad:

The whole 'working man's party' thing has become so inaccurate and so lame that it's getting really annoying. None of these idiots have worked a day in their lives, and it's really starting to show. Between that and the sense of entitlement that seeps out the pores of so many federal ALP MPs it's no wonder their approval ratings are so low. I don't like the Libs either (far from it) but I don't see any other choice at present. The federal ALP have stayed so far from the path that they've become an insult to the original core values of the Labor movement.
At least the Libs don't pretend to be Labor.

Captain Sand Dune 30th Apr 2012 07:48


The whole 'working man's party' thing has become so inaccurate and so lame that it's getting really annoying. None of these idiots have worked a day in their lives, and it's really starting to show. Between that and the sense of entitlement that seeps out the pores of so many federal ALP MPs it's no wonder their approval ratings are so low. I don't like the Libs either (far from it) but I don't see any other choice at present. The federal ALP have stayed so far from the path that they've become an insult to the original core values of the Labor movement.
At least the Libs don't pretend to be Labor.
The rot started with Goof I reckon. From what I understand, pre-Goof ALP consisted of more of those who had actually worked. I reckon I would have been more inclined to vote for an ALP that actually represented the interests of the worker rather than toadying to left wing "intellectuals", luvvies and looney Greeny types.

Buster Hyman 30th Apr 2012 08:16

Worrals...I meant all parties & the pollies that inhabit them.

Indeed, the ALP standing for the working man has been undermined by non-working men & women. I suppose the Libs remain their stereotypical self, but the ALP is nothing like what it was.

Very interesting membership figures there Worral. I reckon you could read a whole lot more in those figures too btw...

Worrals in the wilds 30th Apr 2012 08:55


Worrals...I meant all parties & the pollies that inhabit them.
No worries, I got that. :) I met a lecturer in Ancient Greek politics once who claimed that our system is no longer a democracy but rather an elected oligarchy, where the oligarchy is defined as a class of people who are professional politicians. Of course a democracy in the Greek sense 'elected' politicians by lottery, but in his opinion the modern system had moved away from even the traditional parliamentary democracy where respected (and sometimes less respected :E) members of the community took time out from their 'real' job to be pollies for a while.

If you want to be a pollie of note these days (particularly in the federal ALP), you have to make that decision fairly early in life and work doggedly towards the goal through your twenties. You don't have time for much of a career doing anything else because your time is taken up working for the machine, aka the oligarchy. If you're lucky you end up an MP, then a Minister. Even the Libs are moving towards this model at the federal level, particularly where the ministers/shadow ministers are concerned. Abbott, Howard, Hockey et al haven't done all that much outside politics. How could they? They were too busy being politicians.

The state parliaments are a little more open to outsiders, but it's still mainly professional pollies in the senior positions. Campbell Newman is a notable exception, and I think it's the reason a lot of people like him. Howvever even he came via local government, and the Lord Mayor of Brisbane is an interesting position because it's a very powerful one by national local government standards. The BCC is the largest council in the country, because it administers the whole of Brisbane, unlike the other large cities which are divided into separate councils. I doubt Newman could have blown into the state parliament as Premier without previously being Lord Mayor of Brisbane. Also, by all accounts the state LNP were absolutely desperate and willing to consider non-orthodox options.

It's not impossible for a non-professional pollie to get elected to federal parliament (witness the Independents and a number of backbenchers from both majors) but it's difficult for them to exert much authority, because they're almost always outnumbered by the professionals.

When you consider the community's widespread disgust with both sides of politics, it begs the question; how's it working out?
Badly, is my guess. :E

The rot started with Goof I reckon.
You could be right, or it could have been the times. Other countries are having the same problem.

Andu 30th Apr 2012 09:24


The whole 'working man's party' thing has become so inaccurate and so lame that it's getting really annoying. None of these idiots have worked a day in their lives, and it's really starting to show. Between that and the sense of entitlement that seeps out the pores of so many federal ALP MPs it's no wonder their approval ratings are so low. I don't like the Libs either (far from it) but I don't see any other choice at present. The federal ALP have stayed so far from the path that they've become an insult to the original core values of the Labor movement.
At least the Libs don't pretend to be Labor.
Worrals, that one paragraph just about sums up today's ALP (and let's face it, all too many of the Libs as well) than anything else I've read in some time.

When I was still at high school, I worked the night shift on weekends at the local newspaper (down on the presses among the ink, not on the editorial floor). The boss down on the presses was old school Labor to his bootstraps and universally respected by every worker in the building (and there were some rough nuts among them, I can assure you). To this day, while in no way agreeing with his politics, (I was a right wing reactionary even then), the man remains one of the men I most respected. He was what the ALP used to be.

At the other end of the scale, back in the 80s, I knew a couple quite well who were your classic "Gucci Laborites". (We were in the same Rotary club.) They owned a Sydney waterfront property, their kids went to top level private schools, each drove a Beemer, (his a saloon, hers a sports), they flew to the US every year for a ski holiday, they had a share in a chalet at Thredbo (winter in Oz was summer in the US, so they could 'double dip' on the ski-ing every year). He was a lawyer, she a physiotherapist - and since meeting at university in Young Labor, they remained committed and very outspoken members of the ALP, hell bent on inflicting wealth redistribution on everyone but themselves - (he was quite openly up to his ears in every tax avoidance scheme that was on offer at the time). When I asked him how he could rationalise demanding everyone else "enjoy" the 'everyone is the same' standard of living Labor was attempting to inflict on us at the time but not him and people of the Labor inner circle like himself, he couldn't see the problem. He was different.

I agree with Capt Sand Dune - the rot of 'entitlement' started with Whitlam, and that rot has permeated far too deeply into society, even into the upper ranks of the Liberal Party (see Tony Abbott's imbecilic plan for full pay however much that is maternity pay scheme).

I wait with bated breath to see Julia Gillard deliver her budget in the next few weeks and how deep into the public debt she will dig to bribe the voting public into voting for her. If enough of the Australian voting public fall for any bribe she offers to keep her in power after the next election (as she hopes they will), I think we should despair for the future of this country.

Worrals in the wilds 30th Apr 2012 09:48


(I was a right wing reactionary even then)
Giggle. :)

The boss down on the presses was old school Labor to his bootstraps and universally respected by every worker in the building (and there were some rough nuts among them, I can assure you).
Those guys still exist but they're not going into politics. They're starting their own businesses, getting promoted (after scaring the bejesus out of the other management course participants :E) or simply working hard, doing well and buying new cars and big boats. :ok:

The younger editions aren't even joining unions much, or if they do, all too often it's just to pay dues and read the newsletter.

Also, don't forget the lack of union support for the Qld ALP in the recent election. Only one union funded ad in the Courier Mail, posted by the Nurses Union that's run by a person well known as a friend of the former Premier. No others...:suspect:

Several unions I know of advised their members to 'conscience vote', which is about as close to 'don't vote Labor' as they're likely to get. Another (the CFMEU) was reported in the press as actively campaining for the Katter Party; they even provided how to vote volunteers on election day in several central Qld electorates. The federal ALP may still be able to count several big, political unions as mates but a lot of the others are taking a long, hard look at the Party. If they're doing it at the state level there's no reason to think the federal mob are immune. Perks nothwitstanding, the ACTU would do well to remember who pays their wages; the ever dwindling rank and file. :eek:

I went out with a truckie who sounds similar to the bloke you describe. In the ol' days he may well have gone into politics and/or the executive of the TWU. These days; started his own business by buying a few trucks and hiring a few blokes, then bought a few more trucks, hired a few more blokes and is now worth a small fortune. No time for politics or union games.

These days there are more opportunities for blokes like that, which isn't a bad thing. However, politics is losing out on their brains, talent and work experience, as does the electorate. In any case, the ALP wouldn't welcome them, because all the possies are prefilled with machine dwellers. Likewise Ministerships. Without a decade of making friends and alliances the best they could hope for would be the back bench and TBQH, why bother? :uhoh:


If enough of the Australian voting public fall for any bribe she offers to keep her in power after the next election (as she hopes they will), I think we should despair for the future of this country.
Been wrong before, but I don't think it's going to happen. The question is if they do get annihilated at the polls and we're stuck with the Palmer Party, whether they'll realise there's a problem.

Wiley 30th Apr 2012 10:16

Worrals, I'm with you 100% in your closing comment. The Palmer Party scares me as much as the current sorry mob do (and that's saying something). The only difference would be that the Palmer Party would know what they're doing -and that would be something many, many (dare I call us 'ordinarly') Australians would not like one bit.

I'd like to think the current mob don't understand the damage they're doing, although sometimes, I find myself concerned that they do, and that really scares me.

sisemen 30th Apr 2012 10:55

Albanese:


I certainly said on Saturday that what I wanna do is to fight Tories. That's what I do. That's what I like doing
7.30 - ABC

Pity he's no good at it :E

RJM 30th Apr 2012 12:08

The definition of desperation:

Julia Gillard's comment on TV tonight, after Clive Palmer had declared his intention to run against Swan and Abbott had calmly said that the Libs want a 'grass roots candidate' and that Palmer could say what he liked but he would have to 'run the gauntlet' of local preselection:

'Well, I can't say I'm surprised. The Liberal party has always been the party of billionaires, and Labor is the party of working families.'

How pathetic as a slogan and how facile as an analysis, especially from the Prime Minister of the country. A child could do better.

Buster Hyman 30th Apr 2012 14:30


'Well, I can't say I'm surprised. The Liberal party has always been the party of billionaires, and Labor is the party of working families.'
Ok, so how do 18 Billionaires constitute enough votes for the Liberals to EVER form Government? (BRW200)

She's just making a fool of herself now.

sisemen 30th Apr 2012 15:35

Just watched Windsor on Lateline. What an inarticulate, defensive, silly old git he is. He must be living in a totally different world to the rest of us mere mortals.

hellsbrink 30th Apr 2012 16:10


She's just making a fool of herself now.
Not at all, some scriptwriter is making a fool out of him/herself for suggesting the words used. That person has, maybe, felt the wrath of the Welsh Dragon and has now found out he's "surplus to requirements".


If that is the case, then why didn't someone spot that before it was uttered?

RJM 30th Apr 2012 21:13

Worrals, you make a lot of sense, eswpecially about our polkitical class. To take further your line of thinking on unions, it may not take much for the ACTU to dissociate from (and stop funding) the ALP. The current ACTU head Ged Kearney may not be the one to do it, but given another weak or compromised ALP leader and a gutsy ACTU head like Hawke...

Come to think of it, how eloquent is the silence from Hawke and Keating on Gillard?


I'd like to think the current mob don't understand the damage they're doing, although sometimes, I find myself concerned that they do, and that really scares me.
That theory again, Wiley. I really don't think they have the sophistication and coordination to be doing that.

At least now we know who or what 'crossed the line' while Gillard was returning from Gallipoli - it was Labor's popularity in the current Newspoll - there must have been a leak.

Stupidest opinion of the week: David Marr. 'Abbott is forcing Labor to run a surplus in the budget.'

eagle 86 1st May 2012 00:17

Palmer will not get preselection.
GAGS
E86

RJM 1st May 2012 00:40

Of course he won't. I don't think he wants it, either. He's just helping the Libs out with a diversion from the budget.

sisemen 1st May 2012 01:10


Labor Party support is near record rock bottom, according to the latest Newspoll in The Australian newspaper.

The paper says support for the ALP is just one point off its all-time low, while support for the coalition is now at the same level it was for John Howard after the terror attacks in the US, on September 11, 2001.

The latest survey was conducted over the weekend and involved 1148 interviews in the face of the ongoing scandals surrounding banished Labor MP Craig Thomson and sidelined Speaker Peter Slipper.

It found that Labor has a primary vote of 27 per cent compared to the coalition's 51 per cent.

That coalition advantage turns into a whopping two-party preferred support of 59 per cent compared to Labor's 41
Oh dear me. I suspect that a lot of Labor MPs are already scouting around for future job opportunities.

Andu 1st May 2012 01:20

Let's just hope that Turnbull or someone else in the Liberal Party doesn't do the usual and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with some asinine remark in front of a camera.

It'll be interesting to see if JG lasts the week. One thing in her favour is that there's probably no one out there (except Rudd of course) willing to sip from the poison chalice.


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