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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

500N 19th Jul 2013 14:47

"Refugee advocates said they would examine the legality of Mr Rudd's changes, despite Attorney General Mark Dreyfus' assurances the changes abide by the Refugee Convention."

WGAF if it does or doesn't, we should leave it if it doesn't then we don't need
to abide by it, problem solved.

"Greens leader Christine Milne said it was ''absolutely immoral'' for a rich nation like Australia to ''dump thousands of vulnerable people into an impoverished country''."

I don't think Christine has worked out that apart from the tied on few,
the majority in Aus really don't GAF about them and the refugees anymore.


The bleating from the bleeding heart soft cocks lefties should be good over the next week as they ramp up outrage in the media.

Wonder why they aren't complaining of the 1000 dead at sea because
of the soft policies since Howard ?

Andu 19th Jul 2013 22:43

The moment the first injured (and even moreso, the first uninjured) rioter from Nauru arrives on Australian soil - (my guess, that will be within the next 24 hours) - the new tough-on-country-shoppers Kevin reverts to same old, same old Kevin.

Except, of course, on the ALPBC, where they're already saying the riot at Nauru "had nothing to do with Mr Rudd's announcement". Which I suppose is technically correct - it had everything to do with what they thought he'd said.

The ALPBC is also doing a major "nothing to be seen here, move along, calm has been restored" line in downplaying the riot.

Buster Hyman 19th Jul 2013 23:07


produce replies with a bit of substance


Oh, the irony!

MTOW 19th Jul 2013 23:23

It'll get really interesting if the Nauruans decide the money they're getting for playing Gulagmeister isn't worth the grief and tell Kev to come and collect the lot of 'em.

Worrals in the wilds 19th Jul 2013 23:43


Rudd has too many enemies within the ALP to risk a date after than the one Gillard nominated, so I reckon he'll go earlier, on time, but not later.
Rudd will be going to G20 on September 5-6 come hell or high water. He's like that. The proposed election date of the 14th is only a week after that, which is tricky if he's out of the country. After that are the footy finals which is even trickier (no party wants a bunch of soggy ballot papers with "King Wal/Laurie Daley" scrawled in between the beer stains, or AFL eqivalent :}) so October is looking positive.

The sitting government ( I know you all hate the fact, but that's what they are :}) don't have to call an election be held prior to 30th November, so there's plenty of room to move.


Around around 300 of the 500 are said to have escaped.
Can they swim?
Seriously, much as I dislike the Rudd, he's playing to the crowd with this one. Not the lefty greenie crowd, because IMO he's correctly summed them up as a minority within Labor supporters. The average Labor supporter is not in favour of economic boat immigrants or the criminals who facilitate their arrival, as he was last time. Like Beattie, he's Changed :hmm:.

He's also figured out in a matter of days that the bulk of Labor voters are not Greens voters. Gillard and Co never figured this out and wondered why pretty much everyone hated them.

Always remember; Rudd is Qld ALP. Right wing Labor, and I'm not talking about the nominal faction deliminations. While there was much discussion about wrongful presidential politics wrt Gillard vs Abbott (as opposed to the Coalition vs the ALP) there seems to be a lot of similar discussion on here about Rudd vs Abbott, albiet with Rudd having the better poll figures. :E

Is this about Leader vs Leader or Party vs Party? Back last week when 'we' had the unpopular leader it was all about the party, but this week it seems to be back to the leader, ie why Rudd is Bad. Let's talk about parties, and why us average bogans should consider voting Liberal (as we did en masse for Howard pre his work-choices annihilation).

Instead of the relentless 'why Labor is bad' campaign, isn't it time for a 'why the Coalition is good' campaign? Seriously, they're shaping up as the world's biggest whingers. With the vacuum of actual party policy, at the moment all I'm hearing is threats and intimidation from the various business councils and mining magnates about how I should be grateful to have a job. :bored:

Yeah, I'm grateful. And they should be grateful that I work hard, bury the bodies http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif and help keep their business afloat so they can skite to the shareholders. It works both ways, but not really. Give and take is seen as a sign of weakness by many corporate types. Make allowances once, and they'll screw you further. Like the BLF once said; if you don't fight you lose...:ooh: If there were true give and take then that wouldn't be the case, but there isn't. Antagonism comes from both sides of the table, and there's is currently in opposition. :E

Sure, some sectors are suffering. We're not good at competing with Chinese/Indian manufacturing of base products. However, I hear even Woolworths and Wesfarmers (among other massively profitable businesses) are currently running the 'times are tough' argument with their workers :yuk:. When you're a company with 50% of the Australian food and alcohol market (not to mention a sizeable chunk of the fuel and gambling market), ya know what? Times ain't tough. Times are booming, and screwing over your warehouse and distribution staff on pay and conditions isn't winning any friends amongst the swinging voter market. :hmm: Every time these businesses and Gina & Co jump up against the Labor party, a bunch of potential (and often former) Liberal voters ask themselves ' just what are you planning and where's my share of the profit?' :suspect:

Captain Sand Dune 19th Jul 2013 23:43

This from news.com.au:

AUSTRALIA will half fund university reforms in Papua New Guinea, the redevelopment of a hospital in Lae and its ongoing costs, and law and order initiatives as well as all resettlement costs for refugees as part of Kevin Rudd's new asylum boat solution. The sweeteners are expected to cost billions, but the camp at Manus Island is a boatload away from being full and the Defence Force will send personnel to the island next week to help boost capacity.
How predictable.:hmm:

Mr Rudd announced the new policy alongside a contingent of PNG ministers and the Prime Minister, Peter O'Neill.
Boat arrivals claiming refugee status in Australia will instead be sent to Papua New Guinea for assessment and, if found to be refugees, they will be settled there. Mr Rudd said his policy change, which critics have called a "rush to the right," would be expensive, but he was unable to put a price on the aid and asylum resettlement packages but said "that's what friends are for" and later added the policy would be "budget neutral."
So please explain how a plan that is expected to cost billions is “budget neutral”.

Managing almost 30,000 asylum seekers already in detention in Australia or in the community will cost billions over the forward estimates, the new policy to apply to the next boat that arrives. Facilities will not be ready for families until early next year with the first to house 600 to cost more than $130 million.
Opposition Leader Tony Abbott welcomed the idea, which does not require new laws, but added he did not "trust this prime minister and this government to make it work". PNG has a poor record on violence against women and Australia's Foreign Affairs Department has current warnings for travellers of "high levels of serious crime" and warnings that large crowds "may turn violent." Travellers are also warned of high incidence of armed robberies, gang rape, car-jackings, that they should travel in a convoy at night.
Well looking at what is happening in Nauru, they’ll fit right in!

"From now on, any asylum seeker who arrives in Australia by boat will have no chance of being settled in Australia as refugees," Mr Rudd said. "Asylum seekers taken to Christmas Island will be sent to Manus and elsewhere in PNG for assessment of their refugee status, if they are found to be genuine refugees they will be resettled in PNG." He said the refugees would live "safely and security and, in time, prosperity within PNG" with the country a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention. The implementation "will not be smooth," he said and predicted the government would encounter problems.
"The boats are not going to stop coming tomorrow, in fact it is more probably the people smugglers will try and test our resolve for the period ahead," he said.
"We are prepared to do more."
Refugee lawyer David Manne said that under international law, Australia would retain legal obligation to protect asylum seekers sent to PNG.
"Australian retains legal responsibility for the protection of people who seek asylum in Australian and there are sent somewhere else," he said.
Translated means, “we’re going to stay on the asylum seeker gravy train for as long as we can”

Immigration Minister Tony Burke confirmed women and children could not be sent until permanent facilities were built. The government was forced to withdraw families from Manus Island last month, the temporary facilities deemed unacceptable. Children under seven have also not been sent because of Australian health advice they could not be adequately protected against tropical diseases.
Fair enough, I reckon. Although the potential problem here is how long it will take before the facilities are deemed suitable. In the interim, I reckon you will see what has been predicted in post #6917 come to fruition, i.e. a mad rush of boats filled with women and children.

Adult asylum seekers will spend two weeks undergoing health checks before being transferred. "The facilities as they are right now are not appropriate for (women and children,)" Mr Burke said. "We will not be transferring women and children immediately. The intention is as we move the temporary facility to a permanent facility anybody who arrives from now on will be subject to the new rules."
I applaud KRudd’s resolve to do something about the asylum seeker issue, however I note the following:
1. He started it during his first reign when he dismantled Howard’s “Pacific solution”. I find it amazing that the TV media seem to gloss over this fact as part of their unwavering adoration of the Great Leader (no, I’m not really surprised at all).
2. As far as I’m aware, the “Pacific solution” did not cost the billions that KRudd’s scheme is expected to cost. Again, a point studiously ignored by the TV media.
3. The “Pacific solution” and this scheme only address the symptoms and not the cause. The cause is the attraction of seemingly unlimited welfare to people whom have never had access to this privilege. I would like to see a policy whereby access to welfare is only granted to Australian citizens or to genuine refugees.
4. Which brings me to my final point; the screening of refugees must be more thorough. When the Minister for Foreign Affairs states that he thinks that the screening process for refugees needs to be tightened (link on post # 6436 refers), then I reckon something needs to be done. If that means “refugees” needs to stay in detention longer until their claims are adequately examined, so be it.

chuboy 20th Jul 2013 00:01

Realistically though, how can you improve screening of refugees if they have no papers and they have fled from a country with no effective government, or at least one which will not provide information about its citizens? Keeping them in detention longer will not enable you to pluck more information from thin air.

Genuine question. Lots of ideas get thrown around in this thread with not a great deal of substance behind them. The coalition seems to have the same problem :E

Pappa Smurf 20th Jul 2013 00:39

A genuine refugee ,should by rights, be happy to live anywhere other than where hes come from.
Its quite obvious the boats are full of folks wanting to be only on the shores of Aust.
The money they pay people smugglers in Indonesia is a small fortune compared to the wealth of most Indonesians.
Its already been shown the Sri Lankans only want to come to Aust for more money etc.
I doubt many would want to live in PNG.
By rights it should stop a lot of boats once word gets back home.

Captain Sand Dune 20th Jul 2013 01:31

Chuboy,

Fair enough question. My first suggestion is no papers = no asylum and send 'em back. Many of these "asylum seekers" seem to have the wherewithal to come up with thousands to pay for the boat ride to welfare Nirvana, yet they can't furnish identification? In my view, asking for identification from a potential asylum seeker in a reasonable request.
There seems to be a heavy weight of anecdotal evidence form varying sources that our "asylum seekers" destroy their passports etc on first contact with Australian authorities anyway.
Secondly, I reckon there should be a time limit in which the identification of a potential asylum seeker can be verified. If we cannot establish who they are within a period of time to be determined, send 'em back.
And abolish the family re-union policy loophole!

Ovation 20th Jul 2013 02:37

Another example of Government (read ALP and K Rudd) waste of money.

On page 9 of today's Australian newspaper (Sat 20/09), there is a full page advertisment with the caption telling asylum seekers "YOU WON'T BE SETTLED IN AUSTRALIA" if you arrive by boat.

Personally I would understand and agree with such an advertisement if I knew the newspaper was printed in foreign languages and available in Tehran, Kandahar, Jakarta and all the other sources of illegal immigrants, but the fact is it's not, so this is both a waste of taxpayer's money and blatant electioneering by Rudd.

Andu - your posts are finding their way verbatim into the Pickering Post. You need to have stern words with Poor Fella my Country.:ok:

alisoncc 20th Jul 2013 03:03

It might be worth noting how many of those planning to come are induced to do so by those already here. Word of mouth will get o'seas far more effectively that by any other means. So I have no problems with advertising here. Also think policy changes are the best thing since sliced bread. Scare the sh*t out of the buggers. That's all that works.

Fubaar 20th Jul 2013 03:08

The first boat since Krudd's announcement has already arrived.

The Navy should be authorised to offer them a tank of fuel and a course to steer - 020 degrees would be a good one.

boofta 20th Jul 2013 03:24

The sorry idiot Kevin the con has not actually finalised the details
of his new asylum seeker system. So the latest boatload will actually
enter aust. for processing as usual, i.e. they will all be on the dole
with immediate effect. The tosser will spend millions up to the
election advertising his new policy, which is another cynical theft
of taxpayer money for his own ends----outrageous

500N 20th Jul 2013 03:27

Where does it say in the UN HR Refugee policy etc that we have to pay these people thousands of dollars ?

Also, why can't they be housed in a camp like Christmas Island or one in a remote area ?

Anyone know ?

Fubaar 20th Jul 2013 04:25

The Libs should can their advertising campaign and simply replay this tape over and over again.

The Real Kevin Rudd - YouTube

Buster Hyman 20th Jul 2013 04:37

A fair question chuboy. I think this is the whole idea behind getting the economic & opportunist queue jumpers into the system with the genuine refugees. If they successfully overwhelm the processing, then the likes of the ALPBC will have ample opportunity to show the poor, genuine ones stuck in a detention nightmare, thus playing on the sympathies of Joe Q. Public.

As an aside, and as much as Rudd caused a lot of this by dismantling Howards solution, is anyone else concerned about this arbitrary exclusion of genuine refugees? I have stated all along that I am happy to accept refugees here, its the queue jumpers & smugglers that I object to.

Also, can anyone tell me the religious percentages in PNG? Will this sudden influx tip the scales in the status quo? :confused:

500N 20th Jul 2013 04:45

Buster

"I have stated all along that I am happy to accept refugees here, its the queue jumpers & smugglers that I object to."

+ 100

And I think that applies to every person who has swung against AS
over the last 10 years.


chuboy
"how can you improve screening of refugees if they have no papers and they have fled from a country with no effective government,"

Make a decision based on what you know, what they provide.
Hell, in this information age you can soo check how bad a situation is.
ie current Sri Lanka, is it really refugee status ?

If they come on an illegal boat by people smuggler with no papers
then send them back. They had the money to get into Indonesia and pay for a boat ride, everyone knows they destroy the papers.

Plenty of other to take their place.

Fliegenmong 20th Jul 2013 05:00

Good post WITW

isn't it time for a 'why the Coalition is good' campaign?

Nah, the 'Born to rule' need not explain why.....just Chris Pyne jumping up and down saying "Because!" is about it .....

SOPS 20th Jul 2013 06:40

I wonder what the reaction will be when the AS find out they are off to PNG and that there is no Centrelink there?

410 20th Jul 2013 07:52


I wonder what the reaction will be when the AS find out they are off to PNG and that there is no Centrelink there?
I think you'll find that there will be a Centrelink there, SOPS - 100% paid for by the long-suffering Australian taxpayer.

As to answering your question: I think we'll see riots and threats of self-harm; lots of both. Krudd still hasn't said what he'll do with the women and kids. And I'd be guessing, any male accompanying a woman and children will NOT be going to PNG. Cultural sensitivities, self-imposed by our limp dick Lefties will demand that a Muslim woman cannot possibly be left alone without her husband, so my bet would be that it will be only single, unaccompanied males who will be sent to PNG. That's if any ever are - Kev's achieved his aim; he's made the grand pronouncement. History would suggest that he doesn't really feel he has to do anything more than that.

Meanwhile, there'll be riots, hunger strikes, lip sewing, attempted suicides... the whole gamut. Particularly when there's a TV crew on scene.


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