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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

bankrunner 25th Nov 2013 00:00


Originally Posted by Clare Prop
the phone taps were in 2009 when Rudd was PM. Snowden leaked the info in June when Rudd was PM.

If you're going to blame Kevin Rudd, you may as well blame Ben Chifley and every other PM we've had since 1947.

Australia has been in the peacetime signals intelligence business since the end of WWII.

It'd be pretty naive to believe that successive Australian governments (of both flavours) have maintained and expanded that sort of capability for any reason other than keeping an eye on the leadership of regional powers, especially Indonesia.

What else would we use it for? Pirating foreign pay TV?

It'd also be silly to think Indonesia didn't also know that, but now that it's public they've got something they can milk the shit out of politically.

Worrals in the wilds 25th Nov 2013 02:57

Only 1400 surveyed via landline and conducted for The Age :hmm:, but still...
37-41 is a pretty speedy recovery for Labor.
Labor storms ahead
'Labor storms back to where it should be' would probably be a more accurate headline, but...
1. it's The Age and
2. it's the first genuinely good political news some of us lefty types have read in years,so they may have been a bit excited.:ok::}

However, Shorten should take heed of the 57-38 in-favour result to the question 'should Labor vote to abolish the carbon tax'? That's pretty decisive. :uhoh:

Almost everything else seems to be about fifty fifty, which is back to where it should be. I guess that the right wing media commentators who predicted and prayed that post defeat, Labor would trip over its shoelaces and crash and burn are feeling a little :( right now. :)

It'd also be silly to think Indonesia didn't also know that, but now that it's public they've got something they can milk the shit out of politically.
Agreed. An AJ mate reckons that the main reason they're cranky is because they're not as good at it as we are. :suspect::}

500N 25th Nov 2013 03:11

"I guess that the right wing media commentators who predicted and prayed that post defeat, Labor would trip over its shoelaces and crash and burn are feeling a little http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/sowee.gif right now."

Plenty of time yet, plenty of time yet :O ;)

500N 25th Nov 2013 03:13

"An AJ mate reckons that the main reason they're cranky is because they're not as good at it as we are. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/cwm13.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gif "

+ 100

They hate it that we as in Aus beat them Politically and militarily (when the
two have got into a gunfight that is) and the fact that we have this huge country
that they don't think we utilize !!!

Worrals in the wilds 25th Nov 2013 03:13

That goes both ways. :E:}

bankrunner 25th Nov 2013 04:26

It's not so much about what the ALP have done since the election, but more what they haven't done :E Shorten has for the most part, quite wisely been keeping his mouth shut, and that's actually been out working out pretty well for him.

Shorten is flying under the radar while the ABC et al go out and hang Abbott out to dry over his refugee boat secrecy, and his handling of the Indonesian phone surveillance fiasco.

Fliegenmong 25th Nov 2013 09:08

Dark Knight, fair enough! :ok:

"Common courtesy, respect and good manners achieve far more than puerile, uneducated rants."

Will let this chap know.....:}

Google Image Result for http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/03/23/1226026/932862-abbott-new.jpg

Is that the speaker of the house on the left??? :sad:

Fliegenmong 25th Nov 2013 12:21

Clearly Mr TA is not a man of Common courtesy, respect or good manners......certainly well versed in the Puerile though..:(

Dark Knight 25th Nov 2013 21:54

Flieg, as you should well know, Mr Abbott or the Liberal party did not organise said signs nor did he choose to stand in front of them, the demonstrators chose to find the best spot for the best media coverage.

Could the same be said of the organisation of the Aboriginal riot from the then Prime Ministers office when Mr Abbott was addressing a meeting/rally?

BenThere 25th Nov 2013 22:05


Clearly Mr TA is not a man of Common courtesy
I find that to be a surprising take, as from all I've seen of the man is he is a paragon of gentlemanliness - polite, respectful, family man, devout.

As such, I'm suspicious that opponents suggesting otherwise may be barking up the wrong tree, and should pursue other vulnerabilities.

One vulnerability is that he doesn't seem to cotton to additional taxation in the name of climate change which has no effect on climate change. You could oppose him on that score, certainly.

Another vulnerability is that he doesn't seem to empathize with those seeking asylum and lifetime welfare in Australia who choose to arrive in illegal vessels, depending that the humanistic and charitable nature of Australians will force them to pick up their tab.

500N 25th Nov 2013 22:07

BenThere

Two reasons the majority voted for him :ok:

SOPS 25th Nov 2013 22:59

Ben There, very well said.:D:D

Dark Knight 26th Nov 2013 04:00

Internet Shopping...
 
Australian retailers have been ripping the Aussie consumer off for years; the internet allows the consumer to see just how huge this ripoff is!

Retailing has been changing and evolving since the beginning of time: Aussie retailers should get with it and stop whinging.

Fuel pump from Ford $2750; from the US including freight $475; Front end control arms Ford Aus $1276 from US including shipping $251; Computer book from Aussie book store $75 from Amazon $29.99, etc.

Clear message to Harvey; continue pushing this and I will not shop at HVN again;; in fact why don't we all stop shopping there now until this push is resolved?

Memo to Politicians: change this at your peril!

Call, email, lobby your local MP & Senator NOW!


Read more: GST-free shopping 'totally unfair': Gerry Harvey

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 05:09

I agree, Dark Knight (it was always going to happen one day ;):}).
It would also cost more to administer than was actually collected, which is the reason the threshold was set in the first place.

What GH doesn't like to mention is that an awful lot of internet shopping is done with Australian businesses, both by Aussie and foreign customers. Many of them are small businesses, too; like the sort of small electronics and computer businesses GH sent broke when he started his megastore concept and laid them all flat with his massive buying power. :ouch:

Karma sucks, Gerry. :E

IMO internet shopping is better for small businesses than large ones, if they can adapt. In just one example, one of Brisbane's biggest dive operators recently got rid of their retail / booking shop and now run the whole thing using website/phone and directly from the boat. Their boat seems busier than ever and they save hundreds of thousands of dollars in rent.

There are many similar stories across the country where internet shopping has been a boon. It doesn't matter any more if you run your Rare Books store from Melbourne or a small town in the country, as long as you have a decent website and access to a post office.

The fact that Gerry Harvey, Myer and the usual suspects are whining says to me that it's working out well, both for small retailers and consumers. Labor told them to bugger off last time they ran this up the flag pole, and hopefully the new government will also have too much sense to listen to them.

500N 26th Nov 2013 05:17

Worrals

I think the $1000 is set too high and was set before "on line" shopping
became the norm. It used to be $400 I think and they had no problem
slugging you on import if it was above this then.

I the Gov't is losing $1 billion, I reckon some scheme could be worked out.
The problem is collection without holding up the parcel.

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 06:38


The problem is collection without holding up the parcel.
And that's almost impossible to get around. You can't require businesses that are based overseas to collect tax for the Australian Government. The GST is a big administrative PITA for Australian businesses as it is, so I can't see foreigners going for it.

A Productivity Commission report in 2011 found solid grounds, in principle, to lower the threshold but concluded that it would not be worth the extra cost of intercepting and opening more low-value parcels
From memory the threshold was increased in about 2006 (:confused:) when online shopping was already around. I'd like to see the research; without making any accusations it sounds a bit like the 'our studies show' rhetoric that accompanies overpriced cosmetics. :hmm: When research is conducted for an organization with a vested interest in the outcome I get suspicious.

Even if the findings are accurate, if it costs the government more to implement than it gains in tax dollars then it's counter-productive. Nor would it factor in lost tax revenue to other countries from their citizens buying products online from Australia, which is to our businesses' benefit.

If it wasn't Myer and GH whinging then I'd be a bit more open to the argument, but the small business associations don't seem to be jumping up and down about online retail. I suspect that's because many small businesses are doing very well out of it at the expense of Myer and HN.

I think the real online threat to GH are the many comparison websites that show various white goods and electronic products available on line from within Australia, at far better prices than HN and Myer are offering for identical products (such as Union Shopper! Pardon the shameless plug :}:}:}). They've spent a generation ripping off Australian consumers because we had no choice, and now their happy little racket is facing some competition (much of it domestic) they're running off crying to Mum. :bored:

500N 26th Nov 2013 06:50

Worrals

"On line" shopping might have been around but not many were using it.
I was half in the computer industry then and half distribution and even
retailers couldn't see what was coming !!!

Small business retail is suffering ATM, not just from on line but also the economy. OK, some retailers need to "get with it" and the problems are
their own making but it is still hard for them out there.

GST will never be collected by foreign businesses, that is not an option.
And sales on line to OS customers does not attract GST anyway.

Aus has always been a higher margin country. Partly due to business costs
and partly due to lack of volume and of course partly because we are capitalists;) :O

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 06:54


Small business retail is suffering ATM, not just from on line but also the economy. OK
True. These guys aren't small business though. They're Big Business, and Big Businesses that put a lot of small businesses under far more pressure than the internet does. To see Myer (as in the Coles Group, formerly known as Coles Myer) complaining about competition is frankly distasteful :yuk:.

When it comes to fuel, grog, pubs and groceries they have allegedly crushed small opposition businesses, held suppliers to ransom (particularly the little guys), and (also allegedly, but from a local case a friend was involved in) put pressure on the big shopping centres to squash their small competitors. They generally behave like corporate thugs. Ask the Dairy industry what they think about the Coles' approach to free trade. :*

IMO, now they've met a collectively viable competitor they can't intimidate, and they don't like it.

500N 26th Nov 2013 06:57

Worrals

Yes, agree. Coles and Wollies are the same, both pricks to suppliers.
I have dealt with the Coles Myer group :rolleyes:

SOPS 26th Nov 2013 08:28

As an observation my 17 year old daughter never buys anything in a store, she does all, and I mean all, her shopping on line. ( I should know, it all goes on my credit card!) She says she can't see the point of wandering around stores, when she can browse at home.

500N 26th Nov 2013 08:32

I got my GF onto on line. 4 years ago we used to go round the shops,
then she needed a new washing machine. I told her to go on line and
do the research, she ended up buying it without ever going to a shop !
Her first purchase on line !!!

I tend to go to a shop once I have done my research.

Ken Borough 26th Nov 2013 08:53

There are many more lucrative tax avoidance schemes that should be closed ahead the threshold of GST on imported goods. Foe example, the fastest growing line item of expenditure in the health budget is the tax rebate for private health insurance by high income earners. Why not shut that door? Trusts are another rort that should be addressed as well as the games played by trans-national outfits in the way in which they arrange their affairs and rort the Australian taxpayer. All very legal, but at great expense to the taxpayer. :E

Takan Inchovit 26th Nov 2013 09:09

... or get rid of the vast amount of public servants and the ABC. The savings would easily pay for the NDS, NBN and Gonski.

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 09:11


She says she can't see the point of wandering around stores, when she can browse at home.
I'm probably showing my age here, but I love Shopping, i.e. wandering around stores (don't worry guys, you're not invited :}).

The thing is though, these days it's rare that I see something I want to buy. If I see something I want to buy in a big retailer, all too often they make it too hard.

As an example, my dear mother is a David Jones Customer. With her store card, nice Liberty print shirt, Italian loafers and a love of Elizabeth Arden cosmetics and Le Creuset cookware (on sale :cool:); she epitomises the classic Department Store consumer. They don't even need to try to get her money; she turns up and wants to spend it. How do they treat her? Badly. :ugh:

In recent years I've gone shopping with her and watched her get repeatedly stuffed around and overcharged. She actually doesn't mind being overcharged (despite my agitating from the sidelines about how the cookware is a lot cheaper from a well known Sydney online retailer). What she correctly objects to is the complete lack of customer service that is now the norm in our two major department stores.

Let's say you're there and you find an item you'd like more info on. In the good ol' days (not so long ago) a sales assistant would pop up from behind the saucepans and wax lyrical about how Matt Moran recently bought the entire range for his own kitchen. In 2013 you're lucky if you can find a security guard to accost you on the way out the door carrying the item, let alone someone to provide some info about it or actually sell it to you.

If I had a dollar for every time I'd :rolleyes: and said 'Mum, hang on I'll look it up on my phone' while the 'staff' yakked on the phone in a corner of the department, I'd have enough money for the full Le Creuset range, and not on sale either. :ooh:. Myer and HN are no better. :(

To add insult to injury, when she finally finds a sales assistant who can sell her something (oh no, we can't process that here, this is the evening bag counter, not the day bag counter :ugh:) they try and intimidate her into signing up for an American Express card. :*

Recent Myer story; I found a nice full-price Edminston dress; just right for the Comrade's Christmas Party :}. I took it to a 'sales' counter, where the two bimbos present continued their pow-wow about What Helen Said and ignored me. Me being me (apparently I have aggressive tendancies :E) I pulled the cash out of my wallet and waved it while asking the air 'Is this where I buy stuff, or do I just walk out of the store with it'? Sometimes we Aspergers have a win, though I'd have been disowned by my female friends/rels if I'd tried it in front of them. :eek: It's one of the many things that's just Not Done, so I'm amazed any of the neuro-normals ever manage to buy anything while staying 'polite'. :confused:

Fact is; Australian department stores suck. They suck at selling, they suck at competitive prices and they suck big time at providing a pleasant customer experience that makes you want to go back. There are notable exceptions (I'd nominate JB Hi Fi, The Good Guys and Anaconda as some who manage to run big franchises without ignoring or demeaning their customers) but TBQH, sitting at home on the PC is a lot more rewarding and convenient than going to Myer, DJs and HN. And that's from someone who likes 'shopping', so I can see why the kids aren't going for it.

For people who dislike shopping, I don't know why you'd go near any of the bastards. Even if you limit your online shopping to Australian businesses (and that's not a bad thing, both for patriotic and practical reasons like lesser postage and quicker delivery) you can get a better range at cheaper prices and with more information that you'll get at a department store.

Keep whining, Gerry Harvey, DJs and Myer. Keep bitching because your crappy, overpriced products and lousy customer service (often borne from poor working conditions and pay) don't compete. It's beginning to feel a bit like Christmas, but TBQH today I wandered through the local retail behemoth with a full wallet and came out with a plastic flower pot, a packet of Christmas tree baubles and even more :confused: about what presents I'm going to get for people. Despite all the great piles of consumables, there was nothing to buy and no-one to sell it...:sad:

And that's their problem. The GST pales into insignificance, because it relies on them being able to sell something and IME; that's what they can't manage to do.

500N 26th Nov 2013 09:18

Aaaarrrhh yes, sales ability. When I hear someone do a "trail close"
or a proper sell, it shocks me because it is so rare.

Takan Inchovit 26th Nov 2013 09:19

I see Bill whining about the government not being what it said it would be before the election ... sounds vewy familiar :}

MagnusP 26th Nov 2013 09:42


I pulled the cash out of my wallet and waved it while asking the air 'Is this where I buy stuff, or do I just walk out of the store with it'?
WITW, I love you dearly, I really do. xx :ok:

Worrals in the wilds 26th Nov 2013 09:49

Thank you, kind Sir. :)

I see Bill whining about the government not being what it said it would be before the election ... sounds vewy familiar
Opposition 101 versus Government 101. Let the games begin...:}

Fliegenmong 26th Nov 2013 09:52

"Flieg, as you should well know, Mr Abbott or the Liberal party did not organise said signs nor did he choose to stand in front of them, the demonstrators chose to find the best spot for the best media coverage."

No I didn't know that DK, I wouldn't have thought such a bunch of yobs would be so freely able to assemble themselves like that behind a TA speech, that they were even allowed to, or allowed to continue :confused:

Ben
" as from all I've seen of the man is he is a paragon of gentlemanliness - polite, respectful, family man, devout."

No doubt you would find people who would say the same of K Rudd., though I don't necessarily see why being a family man or being devout is prime ministership material. I've never seen Ummm Ahh Abbott polite, and his remarks to a dying man were anything but respectful.

Why would I attack TA for scrapping the carbon tax? In my opinion he shouldn't be trying to introduce (cotton you say?) an emissions trading scheme either (or whatever tax methodology he wishes to add to our daily lives), but that's just me.

Can't comment on boat arrivals, the compliant MSM have been instructed not to report on them, maybe they still come, maybe they do not. Also, if all we're allowed is a set piece once a (week / fortnight?) for operational reasons, then Scott Morrison's squealing daily in the MSM prior to election was tantamount to aiding and abetting the people smugglers.

The whole world of unaffordable welfare handouts that will be the paid parental leave is perhaps a vulnerability you'd care to comment on?

Some very embarrassing paying back of travel claims by MPs going to the Footy, or society weddings in India? That's another vulnerability.

Going back on election promises re education funding? That would be a vulnerability.....there'll be more

One of the shortest 'Honeymoon' periods in electoral history could certainly shape up to be a real vulnerability!

SOPS 26th Nov 2013 10:18

Back to one of our other favourite subjects......

How do these people seem to be able to come up with lawyers ( and pay for them) so easily. And as Andu often notes, I see that some activist is saying that as the baby was born in Australia, it has rights. Read....rights to welfare handouts.

Myanmar asylum seeker family continues court fight to stay in Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I16 26th Nov 2013 10:26

Few months ago Mrs I16 and myself went shopping for a new mattress. Recently retired we wanted something really good that would last a few years not withstanding a slightly reduced performance capability requirement - but something that had a quick recovery, just in case.
Went to Myers in the city and were charmed by a lovely assistant who made sure we tried all the types that were within our reasonable budget. The one we chose was about $4000 and with all the new sheets, covers, pillows etc came to about $5300.
We were both happy and as I completed the delivery details I mentioned to the sales assistant that we were very happy with her advice and help and was sure that she was a great staff member of Myers.
All was well - but she said as we left that she was employed not by Myers but by the mattress company!

bosnich71 26th Nov 2013 10:26

SOPS ..... not just Lawyers, there are Q.C.s involved as well.

SOPS 26th Nov 2013 10:33

In that case I extended the question........if I have a need for a QC, but can't pay for one, how do I get one by Friday?

500N 26th Nov 2013 10:47

"but she said as we left that she was employed not by Myers
but by the mattress company!"

And you know why that is ?

Because the sales assistant can't sell so the manufacturers employ staff to sell.
The same reason the make up people have their own people trained by them
in the stores, even of they are employed by Myer.

Fliegenmong 26th Nov 2013 10:50

"The one we chose was about $4000 and with all the new sheets, covers, pillows etc came to about $5300"

Holy Cow!!!! The bed would want to make itself for that, not to mention wash it's own sheets!! :eek::eek:

Not surprised about the sales assist though!

500N 26th Nov 2013 10:54

If a good sales assistant can't add at least 25% (if not 50%) to your intended spend then they are not very good at their job, taking into account individual customers needs.

Most sales people are just order takers.

I16 26th Nov 2013 11:06

I have just been up to the bedroom to have a look and still think it was a great purchase!
May be it is the low lighting or the thoughts of ........... ............. ....... till morning.

Still glad we bought a good mattress [after years of crappy $99 ones ]

500N 26th Nov 2013 11:23

I16

You won't regret it.

SOPS 26th Nov 2013 11:35

We spent 5000 on a new mattress last year, best thing we ever did.

Fliegenmong 26th Nov 2013 12:02

I never sleep well, but no one has ever suggested I pay more for my mattress than my car is worth!! :eek:


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