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Pontius Navigator 29th Oct 2018 12:19


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10295396)
I by and large our European friends tend to arrive here without the baggage of rather large extended families, and are for the most part young working people with no, or very small families that are not a big pull on the welfare koffers. They are often also short term residents,

True, but while their families might be back home I believe they are in receipt of child allowance etc which is remitted to their home country. I can't give a reference but recall it from an article recently.

Regarding 'temporary ' our Lithuanian car wash has had the same guys running it for a number of years. One is married, has had two children and they are at a local school. The Boston Polish and Portuguese population is also pretty permanent.

ATNotts 29th Oct 2018 14:37


True, but while their families might be back home I believe they are in receipt of child allowance etc which is remitted to their home country. I can't give a reference but recall it from an article recently.
A number of EU states aren't happy about that either and efforts have been made to stop or curtail it. The Polish and other governments are agin such legislation and point out that because the much lower costs in their countries, host nations of migrant workers are better off having their child allowance sent to Poland etc than paying for education of their children in UK!! That may be true, but it doesn't fly in the eyes of public opinion.

cavortingcheetah 29th Oct 2018 14:41

Were I Jewish or a rich man living in Britain, I'd see no difference between what I'd think Momentum would like to do with me and what Momentum tell me the far right would like to do with me. In either event, were Momentum to gain power, I'd leave.
The money tree, or so John MacDonnell has told the public, is in the Caymans. He's going to dig it up and bring it to Britain, or so he said. The UK government has a lot of leverage with the Caymans, so he probably could do just that, given the opportunity.
For all that, the resource of Jews and rich men living in Britain, and that's by no means a synonymity, is not unlimited and neither is the Cayman money tree. Phillip Hammond said yesterday that if there were a no deal Brexit, he'd have to have an emergency budget geared to turning Britain into a low tax, Singapore style economy. Today the FTSE is up 120pts at lunch time. You'd better hope like Jimmy Cricket for a no deal Brexit, that just might produce an almost infinite resource.

Dutystude 29th Oct 2018 14:47


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10295460)
However long the immigration issue continues to be flogged as an excuse for Brexit, the basic fact is that the majority of immigration and consequent dependency on resources has always come from outside the EU. Brexit is not going to change that one iota. If we couldn't control it before, there is no reason to think we can change it now.
One of the Brexiteers' own frighteners was the threat of 100 million new immigrants coming from Turkey that was apparently about to join the EU. We know what happened to that little gem.

You are right: the majority of immigrants arrive from outside the EU. Pretty sure that all who post on this thread are well aware of the fact.

But your reiteration of the point is a red-herring.

Imigration policy for nationals outside the EU is a matter for the UK government. If the electorate donít like the policy they have the opportunity to vote in a new government every 5 years.

There is no UK policy for EU nationals. We are EU citizens, members of the single market and must accept free movement of all our fellow EU citizens. Note: no you were not in a coma when the UK voted on this; we were not given the option.

The point during the referendum for me, and I suspect many others, was that a Sovereign Nation is not a Sovereign Nation if it cannot control its own immigration policy.

As as for the Turks. It was Boris (Turkish ancestry) who pointed out that when Turkey joins the EU (the direction of traffic at the time) 50M Turks would have the absolute right of free movement to the UK.

He didnít suggest they all would. But then again, at the 2004 enlargement, Blair and Brown, poured scorn on those Ďlittle-Englandersí who voiced concern over uncontrolled immigration from Eastern Europe, suggesting that estimates of anything more than a few tens of thousands was scaremongering.


MFC_Fly 29th Oct 2018 15:17


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10295460)
...the majority of immigration and consequent dependency on resources has always come from outside the EU.

But... until they are granted indefinite leave to remain (an absolute minimum of 5 years after arrival) they are not entitled to any state benefits (except for genuine refugees), as they must be here on a work visa or a fiancťe/spouse visa, and they must also pay an annual NHS insurance charge. I don't see the same rules applying to EU immigrants.

Andy_S 29th Oct 2018 16:38


Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat (Post 10294822)
Not surprised. All leavers do that rather than actually answer the question.

Maybe because the question is too broad in its scope and almost impossible to answer objectively.

Youíve already alluded to freedom of movement as a benefit of EU membership. Others may consider the strain on public services and downward pressure on wages. Better means different things to different people.

A lot of Remainers would look at the economic benefits of EU membership, but I donít think there is a consensus on what the economic landscape will look like in say 5 years either in the UK or the EU.

Gertrude the Wombat 29th Oct 2018 18:38


Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 10295443)
Gertrude: Re this "Money Tree": That has been suffering an awful lot of shaking lately hasn't it? It seems to currently be the Conservatives' favourite piece of horticulture at the moment

Yup. A classic example is "reduce business rates".

Great, until you remember that business rate receipts are being transferred to councils, so another way of spelling this would be "yet more cuts to council services".

Gertrude the Wombat 29th Oct 2018 18:39


Originally Posted by Andy_S (Post 10295800)
Maybe because the question is too broad in its scope and almost impossible to answer objectively.

So if it's impossible to state what the benefits of leaving are why does anyone think it's a good idea?

sitigeltfel 29th Oct 2018 19:42

I see the chancellor is earmarking an extra £2bn for mental health services. Will that be enough to treat all the carpet chewing Remainers, especially the fruitbat with his silly costume, EU flag and banners who does his pathetic little dance behind TV reporters outside Parliament ? His deranged antics sum up the entire Remain movement !

Sallyann1234 29th Oct 2018 20:06


Originally Posted by Dutystude (Post 10295721)
You are right: the majority of immigrants arrive from outside the EU. Pretty sure that all who post on this thread are well aware of the fact.
But your reiteration of the point is a red-herring.


On the contrary, it is entirely relevant when the reduction of immigration is claimed to be a benefit of Brexit


Imigration policy for nationals outside the EU is a matter for the UK government. If the electorate don’t like the policy they have the opportunity to vote in a new government every 5 years.
Really? Successive governments have made it a declared policy to reduce immigration, and they have failed to do so. According to your theory, the electorate are not bothered about immigration since they still elected the last two governments.

All Brexit can do is apply the same failed controls to the smaller number of EU nationals, that have not reduced the larger number of non-EU nationals.

Mac the Knife 29th Oct 2018 20:14

"So if it's impossible to state what the benefits of leaving are why does anyone think it's a good idea?"

That little Farage stalking-horse' scaremongering panicked Cameron into holding a referendum with the result that we all know.
It'll be bad for the EU and much worse for Britain, long and short-term.

Mac

sitigeltfel 29th Oct 2018 20:21

The Metropolitan Police are creating their own cadre of "Zampolits"...

https://www.met.police.uk/car/career...ssor-overview/

Fareastdriver 29th Oct 2018 21:10

I see the Budget is going to raise the tax thresholds. I bet Ayatollah Sturgeon will put a stop to that.

Krystal n chips 30th Oct 2018 07:54


Originally Posted by sitigeltfel (Post 10295979)
I see the chancellor is earmarking an extra £2bn for mental health services. Will that be enough to treat all the carpet chewing Remainers, especially the fruitbat with his silly costume, EU flag and banners who does his pathetic little dance behind TV reporters outside Parliament ? His deranged antics sum up the entire Remain movement !

Siti old boy !

Hast thou been watching repeats of Nige gracing our screens, or, art thou referring to one J.R-M here ?.......tis difficult to tell as both fulfil the criteria you have kindly provided above

Anyway, many Mail readers probably won't be in work today after celebrating Phil's generosity to support their lifestyles......and, better still, the scroungers get next to nothing !......that's just what these people deserve after all....they should have inherited wealth, worked harder at school, and arse licked their way to the top thereafter !

Thankfully, Middle Hingerlahnd have been spared the potential social ignominy of little Tamsin and Tarquin being forced to wear last years designer cast offs and Yummy Mummy can still arrive at the school gates in this years top of the range model of the marque of choice. And, of course, not being reduced a mere one cruise a year !.

Unfortunately, there's a little twist in the Tory largesse as the article points out......which is a neat bit of Tory duplicity now isn't it chaps. Not to worry though, you can all plan a little celebratory splurge this weekend at "La Truffilino Porcine " probably making sure you pass the local food bank en -route to mock the poor people, hwah ! hwah !.......and, when reality possibly kicks in, pause to think about a very uncertain economic future for the UK and the population

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...n-tax-giveaway

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-46026729

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...budget-cartoon

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nefit-the-rich

Pontius Navigator 30th Oct 2018 11:04


According to your theory, the electorate are not bothered about immigration since they still elected the last two governments.
Irrelevant. A Government is elected in its whole manifesto with the small section of floating voters deciding the outcome. As far as they've are concerned they may not be voting for any one item, e.g. Immigration, but for, in their opinion, the least bad option.

Sallyann1234 30th Oct 2018 12:30


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10296647)
Irrelevant. A Government is elected in its whole manifesto with the small section of floating voters deciding the outcome. As far as they've are concerned they may not be voting for any one item, e.g. Immigration, but for, in their opinion, the least bad option.

I agree with you!
The statement I was replying to was that:

Imigration policy for nationals outside the EU is a matter for the UK government. If the electorate donít like the policy they have the opportunity to vote in a new government every 5 years.
Clearly the electorate do not feel sufficiently strongly about immigration for it to change their voting.
The fact remains that for whatever reason, successive governments have failed to tackle immigration from outside the EU, and Brexit will do nothing whatever to correct that problem.

Dutystude 30th Oct 2018 13:00


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10296006)
On the contrary, it is entirely relevant when the reduction of immigration is claimed to be a benefit of Brexit


Really? Successive governments have made it a declared policy to reduce immigration, and they have failed to do so. According to your theory, the electorate are not bothered about immigration since they still elected the last two governments.

All Brexit can do is apply the same failed controls to the smaller number of EU nationals, that have not reduced the larger number of non-EU nationals.

All true again Sally.

Except that, while successive Conservative/Coalition Governments have woefully failed to reduce non-EU immigration by any significant amount, it remains Government Policy to do so. Governments of all hues often fail to achieve their goals.

You may believe that the UK will never be able to control non-EU immigration; I donít agree.

But, Iím sure that you will agree that if we remain in the EU the UK will never be able to control immigration from the soon to be expanded EU.



Krystal n chips 30th Oct 2018 18:15

A simpleton wiv no (self proclaimed ) IT expertise writes.........

Sallyann1234 31st Oct 2018 09:40


Originally Posted by Dutystude (Post 10296752)
But, Iím sure that you will agree that if we remain in the EU the UK will never be able to control immigration from the soon to be expanded EU.

Just out of interest, where is this expansion that is happening soon?
If you are referring to those little Balkan countries who want to join, it seems they have a long way to go to meet EU standards.
Turkey of course has written itself out of consideration.

Grayfly 31st Oct 2018 09:44

This is confusing, should I be in MkI or MkII?

ATNotts 31st Oct 2018 09:45


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10297541)
Just out of interest, where is this expansion that is happening soon?
If you are referring to those little Balkan countries who want to join, it seems they have a long way to go to meet EU standards.
Turkey of course has written itself out of consideration.

And if any of those small (Balkan) countries did suddenly get fast tracked into the EU, there's hardly a nation in (western) Europe that wouldn't want clauses written into their accession period that limited free movement for at least 5, possibly 10 years.

I suppose that Ukraine, for purely political, certainly not economic reasons might be fast tracked in but the same would apply if they (stupidly) were.

Sallyann1234 31st Oct 2018 10:57

It's extremely unlikely that Ukraine would be invited in when their government doesn't even control parts of its own territory.

Edit: Apologies for being dragged into EU discussions in the UK thread.

sitigeltfel 31st Oct 2018 20:50

A list of MPs who support illegal immigration..

https://www.globaljustice.org.uk/mps...e-signatories#

All the usual suspects.

Krystal n chips 1st Nov 2018 07:27

Middle England denizens have long been noted for their hypocrisy when it comes to condemnation of benefit claimants and indeed anybody who does conform to their societal and career expectations, thus the comments by a Tory Minister may well touch a few nerves both on here and in the real world. Be interesting though to see how much effect this proposal has on those happily indulging themselves in this manner whilst professing to live pure, honest and virtuous lives.....

Not unrelated in fact to the comments made by JB's favourite Mayor and their, ahem, "recreational use only habits "


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-and-law-firms-

Sallyann1234 1st Nov 2018 10:11


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10298539)
Middle England denizens have long been noted for their hypocrisy when it comes to condemnation of benefit claimants and indeed anybody who does conform to their societal and career expectations, thus the comments by a Tory Minister may well touch a few nerves both on here and in the real world. Be interesting though to see how much effect this proposal has on those happily indulging themselves in this manner whilst professing to live pure, honest and virtuous lives.....

Not unrelated in fact to the comments made by JB's favourite Mayor and their, ahem, "recreational use only habits "


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-and-law-firms-

Broken link?

Krystal n chips 1st Nov 2018 10:18


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10298634)
Broken link?

Ah, the curse of the Guardian's fabled IT strikes again it seems.....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-and-law-firms-

Sallyann1234 1st Nov 2018 10:28

Still giving a 404 for me.
Perhaps the Grauniad is objecting to being abused on pprune?
Never mind...

KelvinD 1st Nov 2018 11:04

Follow the link and it gives an option to go to the Guardian front page where the opic referred to gets top billing. How difficult is that?

Sallyann1234 1st Nov 2018 11:49

Thank you. Strangely enough I had realised that.
The purpose of a URL is to lead directly to the page in question.
Going via the home page only works as long as the article still appears there, in which case the URL is redundant anyway.

MFC_Fly 1st Nov 2018 12:52

So, with all the problems many are having accessing this thread easily and the start of a new thread, can we finally stop using this one and all go to the new one now... please.

VP959 1st Nov 2018 13:06

Just found a way to get to this thread, after several days of trying, without success.

The problem may be associated with the "last page" not actually pointing to the proper last page, together with what looks to be loads of empty page references extending way beyond the real last page. I played around manually editing the URL for this thread many times, and eventually landed on this page using this edited URL: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411...wheel-542.html (which points to page number 542).

The "last page" URL seems to be: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411...wheel-560.html which points to a page (number 560) which doesn't exist, and presumably something then picks up this incorrect page address and tried to redirect it to the true one, with that process falling over for quite a lot of users for some unknown reason.

I would support the view that if this thread can't be fixed so that it works for everyone, the simplest solution would seem to be to lock it and let the Mk2 thread take over, as at least that does seem to work reliably.


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