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Doors to Automatic 21st Dec 2009 11:45

Another Tony Martin
 
Even The Guardian questions the justice of this:

Little justice for the brothers who beat a burglar | Comment is free | The Guardian

To me this is the most disgusting miscarriage of justice I think I have ever seen in my life. The scumbag has hardly seen the error of his ways, in fact he was even boasting ouside the court that he would get away without a prison sentence, which thanks to the criminal-adoring judge he did.

I wouldn't normally condone violence but when a gang of cowards wearing balaclavas, armed with 12 inch knives come into your house, terrorise your family, beat you and your child and threaten to kill you I think the response was justified.

My only regret is that they didn't finish the job off.

Thats 12 years of "Tough on Crime" for you!

Capetonian 21st Dec 2009 11:49

You may also have noticed that the charming gentleman in question was a lowlife who was described as 'a career criminal' with a string of convictions, whereas the victim was a respected, hardworking and useful member of the community.

Cacophonix 21st Dec 2009 11:55

On the face of it this case appears unjust but a there is also good reason to debate whether what was meted out was a savage, disproportionate and vengeful use of force that went well beyond what might be termed a reasonable defence of family and property.

Whatever the case evil has begat evil with terrible consquences for the family involved. A suspended sentence certainly would appear more appropriate in this case. Maybe there will be a petition for leave to appeal?

anotherthing 21st Dec 2009 12:12

I've not followed the original story, but the linked story confuses me. The writer states:

The reality television star turned broadcaster Ben Fogle is being hailed as a hero. He brandished a heavy sledge a suitably festive weapon at a group of suspected burglars, prompting them to flee from his garden. No one appears to have the least idea where they are or who they are robbing now.
The millionaire businessman Munir Hussain has fared less well. He too chased burglars, having grabbed a cricket bat. But he caught one of his burglars, assisted by his brother, and gave Walid Salem such a beating that he sustained brain damage. Hussain has now been sentenced to two-and- a-half years in prison.
Fogle was lucky that his would-be assailants ran away. Hussain was not so fortunate
So did the assailants run away or not? If Hussain did indeed chase them, then that indicates to me that they ran away.

If Hussain beat the assailants to death in his house to prevent them continuing to threaten his family, fair do's. However it seems that he chased them and caught one, then proceeeded to beat him to a pulp.

Now I appreciate it's all very well sitting in the cold light of day with no emotionas running high and commenting, but this does not seem like an appropriate level of response.

Groundloop 21st Dec 2009 12:18

Anotherthing, you are making the mistake of letting the facts get in the way of a headline sensation story.:ok:

Krystal n chips 21st Dec 2009 12:18

" whereas the victim was a respected, hardworking and useful member of the community"

By which criteria I assume you mean it was thus perfectly acceptable to exceed the term "reasonable force" to a significant extent it seems. Just in case I am confused here you understand.

As for the low life in question, I agree, the sentence seems more than a little lenient to say the least.

Another Tony Martin ?.....not really. Martin only became some sort of "folk hero" to those who approve of the "take the law into your own hands" mantra. And he was far from being the innocent victim he has been made out to be.....quite the reverse in fact.

Capetonian 21st Dec 2009 12:19

He chased them down the street, after they ran away, and then proceeded to lay into Walid Salem with a cricket bat.

It wasn't an appropriate level of response, I think we can all accept that. It is an indication of the deep level of frustration and fear in a society where the authorities have sold the rights of decent citizens down the river in favour of the rights of criminals.

That said,

My only regret is that they didn't finish the job off.
Me too.

Nick Riviera 21st Dec 2009 12:59

'By which criteria I assume you mean it was thus perfectly acceptable to exceed the term "reasonable force" to a significant extent it seems'.

Completely and utterly perfectly acceptable. In fact, it would have been perfectly acceptable if he had run away successfully, been tracked down at his house 2 months later, flayed and rolled in salt.

This scumbag threatened a man and his family with violence. He loses any right to sympathy or fair treatment at this point. If he hadn't done what he did then he would not have received the beating. Simples. I would kill anyone who did that to my family.

In your mind I suppose that makes me some kind of monster. So be it.

olandese_volante 21st Dec 2009 13:09

One is allowed to use reasonable force in self defense.

In this case, force was not used in self defense, but rather in revenge.

The law does not sanction the use of force in revenge, for very good reasons.

Case closed.

Bronx 21st Dec 2009 13:25

Case closed??

I assume you think 2 years and 3 years jail for the householder and his brother is justice. :rolleyes:

olandese_volante 21st Dec 2009 13:40


I assume you think 2 years and 3 years jail for the householder and his brother is justice.
One might argue over the penalty meted out in this case.

But the principle stands.

One comment on the Grauniad article stated:

Had the burglar still been in the house and the family still in any kind of danger, then I would totally agree with Deborah. Once you've chased someone down the street it stops being a crime of self-defence and becomes a brutal act of vengeance. So while I can accept the sentence should maybe have been shorter, I don't disagree with the principle of a custodial sentence here. This was a serious offence.
And to this, I totally agree.

ab33t 21st Dec 2009 14:31

Leave your doors and windows open and leave welcome in sign, suggest to the burglars that you will leave while they complete their job. What has the law come to , stand by and be vandalised

Flap 5 21st Dec 2009 14:45

The reaction was not justified in the eyes of the law. However how many of you would not have done the same? I think the judge should have taken into account the understanderble rage of the moment considering what these low lifes had just done and suspended any sentence. As the criminals had previous they should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They were not.

Ace Rimmer 21st Dec 2009 14:50

The law is often an ass...but maybe it is the CPS who are at fault - bringing the case in the first place..

olandese_volante 21st Dec 2009 15:11


but maybe it is the CPS who are at fault - bringing the case in the first place..
No way. If they'd let Hussain off the hook, a very dangerous precedent would have been set.

Roger Sofarover 21st Dec 2009 15:30

It was a case similar to this that was the last straw, leading me to the decision to leave England forever. You know what, it was the right decision. English culture will sink without a trace within 15 years, and the last to leave will be the pinko lefties who support thugs like this, and when they are being burgled, buggered and beaten, they will be crying 'who is here to save us'! , sorry we all left. The only good thing is that the UK is an Island and when in 15 years it is totally out of hand, we can quarantine it from the rest of the world. Oh England how I miss you, but you are gone forever!

The test for citizenship should be simple. If you cannot watch this without a tingle in your spine then permenent residence should be denied. (edited to add, or the Scots, Welsh, NI equivalent)





And did those feet in ancient times
Walk upon England's mountains green
And was the holy lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen


And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills


Bring me my bow of burning gold
Bring me my arrows of desire
Bring me my spears o'clouds unfold
Bring me my chariot of fire


I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
'Til we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

"Empires dissolve and peoples disappear, song passes not away".

William Watson

Whoops got to go, got some dust in my eyes.

nickyboy2702 21st Dec 2009 16:12

As a society we have developed a judicial system to mete out justice based on the laws of the day. As soon as we accept anyone other than the judiciary doing so it is the thin end of the wedge

Reasonable force in defending oneself, family or posessions - OK. Chasing someone down a street, catching them and beating them - vigilante justice - not OK

Anything other than a guilty verdict (although I may choose to question the severity of the sentencing) would send out a message that it is OK for an individual to mete out justice. Before you know it we will be pulling "suspected" thugs out of their homes and beating them too, then where does this end?

TBirdFrank 21st Dec 2009 16:28

Unless you have lived in a quiet country area that has become the subject of repeated attacks by the low lifes, it is impossible to understand how Tony Martin felt, and to what lengths he had been pushed.

We live in such an area, and around a decade ago suffered a period of repeated thefts and attempted thefts, and obtained no worthwhile help from the police at all, despite well meaning advice that amounted to nothing overall.

We realised that it is a totally different experience being on your own - totally let down by the system, and accordingly view Mr Martin's decision to do something for himself when the system to which he had paid his dues for years did nothing for him in quite an understanding light.

If this upsets some, then so be it.

If you don't violate my space then peace reigns. There is no problem.

But if you do - watch out, because I know just how useful is the English policing and CPS system, let alone the feckless sentencing guidelines of the Lord Chancellor's office - which basically amount to "it costs a lot to send them to jail - so don't - even if you have caught them"

I have managed to reach almost three score years without resorting to criminal activity, why should I look with equanimity on those who do?

olandese_volante 21st Dec 2009 16:33


If you cannot watch this without a tingle in your spine then permenent residence should be denied.
Well I'm sorry Rover, but I think I know a fair few British residents (British citizens by birth) who, rather than a tingle in their spine, would experience an urge to barf.

Myself, I do not reside in Britain and have no desire to be accorded the privilege, so I couldn't care less.

Roger Sofarover 21st Dec 2009 16:45


Myself, I do not reside in Britain and have no desire to be accorded the privilege, so I couldn't care less.
So do not comment and get off the thread!


Well I'm sorry Rover, but I think I know a fair few British residents (British citizens by birth) who, rather than a tingle in their spine, would experience an urge to barf.
Friends of yours eh?

Sorry Obsobese Violante, you didn't need to comment according to your credentials.


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