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Old 27th Apr 2022, 15:21
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bindair Dundat View Post
The point is the media and tech platforms in the USA have been utterly captured by a deep left leaning agenda
Ha ha ha - yes "the political right" keeps saying this. Maybe they think if they repeat it enough it'll actually be true
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 15:23
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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It has started!

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Old 27th Apr 2022, 20:05
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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This article studies what was stated on BBC recently by a friend of Musk. Apparently Musk has mentioned making algorithms transparent and eliminating bots so each tweet is verified as being sent by a human. https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-t...gerber-1700939
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 20:29
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
This article studies what was stated on BBC recently by a friend of Musk. Apparently Musk has mentioned making algorithms transparent and eliminating bots so each tweet is verified as being sent by a human. https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-t...gerber-1700939
Eliminating bots and “Twitter farms” would be a great start to make social media a better place. Personally I’d vote for removing anonymity as well
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 20:29
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Just to re-iterate Twitter isn’t “anti free speech” for fun, they have strict policies re Covid misinformation for example. You don’t have the freedom speech of speech to post Covid hoax or anti vaccine content in their platform. As they are a private company that is their right btw. Trump was kicked off due to incitement of violence post January 6th, not because hey disagreed with his views. Trump’s said he won’t return to Twitter even if Musk lets him.

“Free speech” means you aren’t arrested by a government for an opinion (unless directly calling for harm). It doesn’t mean a private company has to let everyone use their platform to spread nonsense.
The problem is, on many websites (I dont really know about twitter but it's probably the same), it's not only covid hoax that are banned, but everything that starts to vaguely contradict the official narrative.

And being anti vaccine is an opinion just like another, in a normal democracy it should be allowed to argue about a political topic like this one, without instantly being considered a bad citizen (which you seem to do, consider as bad citizen anyone trying to express a disagreeing opinion on vaccines).

About the private companies and freedom of speech, Poland considered that social media, even if private companies, were a part of the public scene and hence had to enforce the national laws instead of their own internal terms and conditions. So it's also possible to have a different view on this subject.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 20:48
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CVividasku View Post
being anti vaccine is an opinion just like another, in a normal democracy it should be allowed to argue about a political topic like this one, without instantly being considered a bad citizen
possibly, but then again is unilaterally deciding which side of the road you drive on or what colour traffic light you stop at an opinion? or is it something that is in society's interest to have an agreement on

To put it another way: would you condone online bullying to the point where someone on the receiving end commits suicide? and if not (hopefully) would you say there was a difference between that and online "persuading" someone to not get a vaccine so that they end up equally dead? ... or end up killing one of their relatives?

Vaccines aren't a "political topic" (and I'm still amazed that they became a politicized), they're a health and safety topic
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 21:13
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
be it pornographic,
That's already been addressed by our Supreme Court, back in 1964. The criterion, at one point, hinged on if something was "without redeeming social importance" - Larry Flynt in the 1980's ended up winning a first amendment battle with his Hustler Magazine vis a vis parody of public figures (in that case Jerry Falwell).
At the heart of the First Amendment is the recognition of the fundamental importance of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. The freedom to speak one's mind is not only an aspect of individual liberty – and thus a good unto itself – but also is essential to the common quest for truth and the vitality of society as a whole. We have therefore been particularly vigilant to ensure that individual expressions of ideas remain free from governmentally imposed sanctions.
And yet we still have laws against libel and slander.
.. the court held that the First Amendment gives speakers immunity from sanction with respect to their speech concerning public figures unless their speech is both false and made with "actual malice", i.e., with knowledge of its falsehood or with reckless disregard for the truth of the statement. Although false statements lack inherent value, the "breathing space" that freedom of expression requires in order to flourish must tolerate occasional false statements, lest there be an intolerable chilling effect on speech that does have constitutional value.
So it's a bit of a gray area, and thus each case must be handled on its own merits.
There is no Easy Button, and yes, democracy is messy: that by design and intent.

Europeans tend to prefer to restrict free speech far more than Americans do. Naom Chomsky has written a number of interesting articles / observations / essays / op ed pieces on that difference over the years on that topic - from what I remember his most common targets have been the French and the Germans.

The First Amendment covers a lot of ground.
What we are discussing in this sub topic of the thread was the aspect meant to protect against those in political power having the ability to suppress public criticism. (Protected political speech is the term that I think is now commonly used). It is interesting to see how that general concept has been applied in other areas of public expression.
Encouraging free speech is its own virtue, in that it encourages more, not less public discourse (however toxic) and also helps identify who is full of crap. By their own utterances will they be exposed.

For SV:
would you condone online bullying to the point where someone on the receiving end commits suicide?
Loaded question much? Has anyone in this thread condoned on line bullying?
(As to why people commit suicide, the assertion that it's a single cause is fraught with error).

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 27th Apr 2022 at 21:29.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 21:51
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Nutty,

Why would you think that?

You coming from the land of Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park and all.....where anyone can get on the soapbox and say whatever they fancy.

Why should Twitter, if dedicated to free speech, be any different?

Do you advocate limiting who can speak at the Corner?

If you do not.... but think Trump should continue to be banned from Twitter....what does that say about your fealty to the concepts of free speech?
A lot of people feel that free speech is a wonderful thing, until they start getting their way.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:02
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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A thought related to Free Speech, the First Amendment, and Social Media.....it has been stated correctly that the First Amendment limits GOVERNMENT. not private business or private individuals.

The rub comes when Social Media is encouraged by GOVERNMENT to censor criticism and negative commentary about the GOVERNMENT and social media does so.

That issue shall no doubt come to the US Supreme Court at some time and with the current Court I am quite sure GOVERNMENT shall get its hind end paddled....and non-GOVERNMENT media shall pay a price for doing the bidding of those in power.

When discussing the situation extant in the United States we have to frame that debate use US Law, the US Constitution, and US Legal Precedent....and not try to suggest the USA should abide by any other Nations's position re Free Speech.

In Twitter's case, as in any international business, it has to comply with the laws where it conducts business which can be a very complicated process.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:04
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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I have had Twitter for a while. I used it on rare occasion to message people to meet up or see a very few people I decided to follow post information. But all of a sudden, I have been spending hours on it each week, every morning and every evening.

Why? There are about 7 or 8 people I have started following(most don't use their own name) who post videos of the war in Ukraine. Mostly 2 minutes or less for each video(sometimes just a few seconds). There can be hundreds of comments or none at all that follow through. Because it is so visual-centric, then followed up with words, some of the people I follow post in Cyrillic only and most, but usually not all, comments are also in Cyrillic(I only read comments if I am interested in knowing more about a video). It keeps me very up to date on the war in a way which most media cannot. There is plenty of propaganda and useless comments but it is fairly easy to figure out what is credible.

There are loads of pictures of destroyed equipment, fascinating video of combat, etc. Perhaps morbid but it is a part of our world, and closer than we might think.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:18
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Biden's DHS is forming a unit to combat "Disinformation" on the Internet.

The Head of the Unit was one of the prominent proponents of the Hunter Laptop being Russian disinformation and not Hunter's abandoned Laptop.

We know how that turned out.....same as the Russian Collusion allegations against Trump.

Where does the US Government get its authority to determine what is "False Information" on social media sites?

Scams, frauds, and that kind of thing falls under existing State and Federal Laws.

If they wish to go after the purveyors of false information they could start with CNN, MSNBC, Politic, the WaPo, and the NYT for starters.....but they have not and shall not.

This Administration shall never go after the very people who are running interference for them.



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Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:58
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements View Post
possibly, but then again is unilaterally deciding which side of the road you drive on or what colour traffic light you stop at an opinion? or is it something that is in society's interest to have an agreement on

To put it another way: would you condone online bullying to the point where someone on the receiving end commits suicide? and if not (hopefully) would you say there was a difference between that and online "persuading" someone to not get a vaccine so that they end up equally dead? ... or end up killing one of their relatives?

Vaccines aren't a "political topic" (and I'm still amazed that they became a politicized), they're a health and safety topic
They're political.
You've been made to believe they're not, but they are.

It is a collective political decision that we make about the balance between one risk and another, between one risk, one cost and one gain, with many uncertainties. The health and safety is only one aspect of it.
Because once you start discussing vaccines you also discuss 'green passes' very quickly, and that's even more sensitive and political.
In my country, people in favour of the vaccine but opposed to the green pass have been said to be "antivaxxers", whereas they're absolutely not. It's just a word that's being used (along with "conspiracy theorist") to discredit somebody in a very expeditive way. In a way that arguments are not even being considered.

And again, in a democracy, you're supposed to be allowed to discuss and have an opinion about everything.
You must obey once it's decided, but even then you can still disagree.
For example, the highway speed limit is a very political topic. Balance between safety, comfort, cost, pollution, etc... You must abide by it, but what would you say about a country that would prohibit every debate about it ?
Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Considering conservative “free speech” sites like Rumble and Parler attract less than 2% of the users of the “big tech” like Twitter or Youtube we can say the market has spoken.
It's not that easy. There are many aspects about your post but I'll just comment this one.
Psychology has shown that the group effect has a huge impact on people.
In several experiments, people blindly follow a group (sometimes even one person speaking before them is enough to influence them to a point where they state the contrary of the obvious), an authority, or even behave according to a context (clothes, type of place..)

At my annual recurrent training about "safety, search and rescue" we had to smell some artificial odours and identify them as burnt fuel, oil, or hydraulics liquid ("wet socks"). We started to discuss as a group about the odors (we didn't have to but it was natural) and the trainer pointed out I was the only one in many groups he had to dare contradict the group on the smell identification. Who is wrong or right does not matter, what one believes does not matter, all that matters is to follow the group.

So basically yes, if a few influent people tell the masses to think like so, they will think like so.
If they massively tell voters it would be a catastrophee to vote for candidate B, candidate B will lose the election, even against candidate A that people hate, but who was not discredited by the media.

Last edited by CVividasku; 27th Apr 2022 at 23:09.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 23:00
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Biden's DHS is forming a unit to combat "Disinformation" on the Internet.

The Head of the Unit was one of the prominent proponents of the Hunter Laptop being Russian disinformation and not Hunter's abandoned Laptop.

We know how that turned out.....same as the Russian Collusion allegations against Trump.

Where does the US Government get its authority to determine what is "False Information" on social media sites?

Scams, frauds, and that kind of thing falls under existing State and Federal Laws.

If they wish to go after the purveyors of false information they could start with CNN, MSNBC, Politic, the WaPo, and the NYT for starters.....but they have not and shall not.

This Administration shall never go after the very people who are running interference for them.
Why didn't Trump send Hillary to prison? Why didn't he "lock her up"? Why did the laptop with critical information go to Guilliani and not to the FBI to begin with?

We still don't know the entire content of the laptop nor the provenience of all the information therein. We also don't know why a repair shop would not simply format the drive rather than inspecting it for blackmail material. It does seem to be key to extorting a response from Joe Biden, though so far ineffective. As such were the FSB to have stolen Biden's laptop, tampered with the contents, and then dropped it at a repair store by someone claiming to be Hunter then the result would be exactly what we have now. So far there is no proof Hunter was ever near that shop nor what the laptop was there to have repaired nor what repairs were performed.

"Mac Isaac gave a copy of the laptop's hard drive to Brian Costello, an attorney for Rudy Giuliani, who is the personal lawyer for President Donald Trump"
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/f...ve/3905393001/

How did he know who the lawyer for Rudy Guilliani is? As an officer of the court he should have turned that information only to law enforcement and neither retained nor given that copy to anyone else as it is hear-say.

So, we are left with a situation where e-mails were stolen, just what Trump called on the Russians to do. Perhaps the entire laptop was stolen. That fits with Hunter not coming to retrieve it; also fitting with the shop owner never contacting Hunter to claim his property or pay for the repairs.

Disinformation doesn't have to be lies. It might just be the suggestion that there is something going on when, in fact, nothing is. The Hillary e-mail report by the FBI certainly scuttled her campaign, even though after the election the FBI reported that all the additional e-mails were simply copies of ones already investigated and had nothing incriminating - but the intended damage was done, the tactic worked. So, just weeks before the election another Red Herring appears in the form the Hunter's laptop.

What I really want to know about is the $680 Million that the Trump family squeezed out of their connections while in the White House, the sweetheart deals they made with the Chinese and Deutsche Bank and the $2 Billion in cash investment that the Trump family got from Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud. If Hunter had a side deal, good for him. It doesn't appear to have resulted in favors. And the transcripts of the conversations Trump had with Putin, those I really want to see.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 23:18
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The American Founding Fathers felt an informed electorate was necessary for the voters to make wise choices at election time....and our media has forsaken their responsibility for that public service.
.
Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements View Post
...and how's that working out?
The amazing thing is both sides of the political debate will ask the same thing. Each thinking their belief is wiser than the other. Beats Russia(jail for opposing the slaughter) or China(jail for comparing the leader to Winnie the Pooh).

I'd say people in America are doing much better under the founding father principal than the people the people under those who would ask your question. After all, Xi and Putin both claim their system is better. Try it sometime.

Last edited by punkalouver; 27th Apr 2022 at 23:43.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 01:44
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Freedom of speech also gives the freedom to mislead. Denmark isn’t halting their vaccination program as an “admission of the ineffectiveness of vaccines”, it’s because they’ve vaccinated so many people they don’t need to keep it up for the time being. However as the article states they’ll resume after summer (I assume for high risk groups). Not an admission of failure of vaccines, an admission of their success.

Now you can verbally say these anti vaccine talking points all day long, they can write and email them, they can post them in discussion forums all day long. That’s free speech.

Some social media companies have decided in accordance with their terms of service they don’t want these misleading posts on their platform, or will put a disclaimer on them. That is also their freedom as a private company. One of the good things about freedom is you have the freedom to create your own social media platform where you can post stuff like that all day long. If a large number of the public (the free market) support you then that platform will be successful. However if these platforms don’t take off, we can infer that the vast majority of people (ie the free market) are happy with existing platforms. Considering conservative “free speech” sites like Rumble and Parler attract less than 2% of the users of the “big tech” like Twitter or Youtube we can say the market has spoken.

The issue is these so called “free speech” platforms seem to like to censor any non conservative speech themselves.

Truth is as much as we say we like “free speech” a lot of people from all sides of the aisle don’t like opinions contradictory to theirs.
the point of free speech is the debate. It’s the only way to get to the truth of things. Our forefathers knew this but we are losing this because we cannot figure out how to dovetail this idea with the fast moving nature of social media. We owe to it ourselves to try. Musk knows this. It’s wrecking us in its current form and needs to change. See I won’t both. I want the right and I want the left. They both play important roles in our society.

as for vaccines, I never said ineffective but they were positioned much more effective than they are. See it’s nuance. The major tech platforms have censored. the nuance. Omicron has made the mass vaccination narrative nonsensical, though this horse was rode as long as it could be and not for the betterment of public health. I’m not against vaccines, in fact I’d love better vaccines against Covid. It would make life so much better, especially those over 60 but we are not there yet. Denmark knows this.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 11:50
  #56 (permalink)  
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WARNING AVIATION CONTENT!

That kid who designed the Twitter account to track Musk's (and other notable's) private aircraft as they travelled around, using bots and adsb data, thinks his account will be dissolved in the next while and has made 'other arrangements' should that be the case. One wag suggested that Musk's purchase of Twitter was to stop the tracking of his movements ;-)


Btw, this thread seems to have a lot of squares in posts where abbreviations were meant to be. Unusual..
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 16:29
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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says Mr. back to Boeing.


Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post
Eliminating bots and “Twitter farms” would be a great start to make social media a better place. Personally I’d vote for removing anonymity as well
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 18:58
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by punkalouver View Post
I have had Twitter for a while. I used it on rare occasion to message people to meet up or see a very few people I decided to follow post information. But all of a sudden, I have been spending hours on it each week, every morning and every evening.

Why? There are about 7 or 8 people I have started following(most don't use their own name) who post videos of the war in Ukraine. Mostly 2 minutes or less for each video(sometimes just a few seconds). There can be hundreds of comments or none at all that follow through. Because it is so visual-centric, then followed up with words, some of the people I follow post in Cyrillic only and most, but usually not all, comments are also in Cyrillic(I only read comments if I am interested in knowing more about a video). It keeps me very up to date on the war in a way which most media cannot. There is plenty of propaganda and useless comments but it is fairly easy to figure out what is credible.

There are loads of pictures of destroyed equipment, fascinating video of combat, etc. Perhaps morbid but it is a part of our world, and closer than we might think.
At the start of the war in Ukraine, I wanted to know minute by minute what was happening. I too started seeing images of destroyed equipment, dead Russian troops and collateral damage.
I could feel myself becoming desensitised and at times hunting for images because I wanted to know the Russians were hurting after they had threatened the West which includes me and my family.
To my amazement the site was completely full of people supporting Russia - with no previous tweets or followers - I quickly learnt what a Bot is...and questioned what is the point of them apart from to ensnare the feeble minded.

When the argument broke out if women can have penises and that bloke entering a women's swimming race, I read a tweet from JK Rowling.
Next my feed was full of the Trans Venom and supposed Ukrainian Nazis.

It became a site of vitriol and nastiness and I started to realise that it was ensnaring me and making me angry towards people I will never meet.

I tried to change my feed to things that were interesting, RMAS and hedgehogs.

Wasn't long before the algorithm brought back the Trans, Transnistra and ultra left loonies.

I started to feel a depression from it - like it was becoming all consuming, it is easier to give up drink, drugs and whores.

I deleted the app today.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 21:43
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tango and Cash View Post
Talking with a friend and trying to understand why the liberal left is having a meltdown over Musk buying Twitter... His summary: "The left is all for free speech, as long as it agrees with their views. Since Musk is not of the liberal left, views not necessarily in agreement with their views may be more 'welcome' on Twitter, and this terrifies them."

Now, whether Twitter is worth even a fraction of what Musk paid is a completely different discussion. I was a poor business school student and don't begin to understand how all these social media platforms have valuations in the zillions of dollars. I suspect there is a method to his madness, and "trolling the libs" is unlikely to be his end goal. Perhaps a nice bonus!
Talking with a friend and trying to understand the over 60s using the internet, he said "sometimes I read things online which are written in quotation marks but which are clearly made up quotes. Sometimes its the only way people can make a point and you should be especially careful about anyone using words 'libs' or the term 'liberal left' because they're normally far or hard right people who think anyone left of them is left, even though the vast majority of people are firmly in the centre." Enlightening.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 22:15
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Right! Got It! Thank your friend for all of us.

Now that is settled.

I hold with the old fashioned way of deciding what political leaning one. has by what one says in one's posts.

It is not hard to discern one's political leanings....all one has to do is read and consider what was said.

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