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Wokery Gone Mad

Old 11th Apr 2022, 20:37
  #81 (permalink)  
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May I point out that the IOC and numerous international sports bodies have been conducting such studies for at least the last 20 years - which is why it should left to them to decide based on the scientific results they receive?
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Old 11th Apr 2022, 21:37
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
May I point out that the IOC and numerous international sports bodies have been conducting such studies for at least the last 20 years - which is why it should left to them to decide based on the scientific results they receive?
That doesn't follow at all. Many global sports bodies in football, athletics etc have shown themselves to be packed with financial criminals, sexual criminals, time-servers who enjoy being at the top-table. The rarest quality seems to be a real interest in and desire to serve the sport, so , no, absolutely do not abdicate responsibility to these people.
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Old 11th Apr 2022, 22:08
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan View Post
There have been reports that athletes are being pressurised to sign these letters.
Where’s your evidence of that? Given about a quarter of trans students have reported harassment in schools and universities so bad they had to leave I don’t think it’s the anti trans students who are being “pressured” into anything.

So sixteen members of her own team believe she shouldn't compete. Pretty clear , eh ?
”16” who didn’t put their names on the letter, 300+ athletes who did.

Plus the swimmers who are most directly affected, those who would have been elevated to silver and bronze on the podium had some right wing politicians had their way (so much for government staying out of people’s lives!), have openly supported Thomas’s right to race in those events. Those most directly affected have no problem with her being there.

there is a strong likelihood that the signatories are motivated more by the "sexual controversy " than their interest in fair sport.
No mention of the fact those proposing legislation to erase Thomas from the race and elevate the remaining finishers up the podium (which those racers themselves have stated they do not want) are some of the most far right politicians in America like Ron DeSantis and Lauren Boebert? They aren’t interested in “fair sports” or “women’s rights”, they’re using this as an opportunity to mock trans people to stir up their base.....
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Old 11th Apr 2022, 22:24
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Where’s your evidence of that? Given about a quarter of trans students have reported harassment in schools and universities so bad they had to leave I don’t think it’s the anti trans students who are being “pressured” into anything.



”16” who didn’t put their names on the letter, 300+ athletes who did.

...
16 swimmers who know her, swim with her vs 300 subscribers to the Pink News.

You are very partial in what you choose to quote.

"Those most directly affected have no problem with her being there."

This is nonsense. The ones most likely to be affected are her team-mates who are directly competing for team-places against her and 16 have signed a letter saying she shouldn't be allowed to swim in womens' races.

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Old 12th Apr 2022, 01:43
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan View Post
16 swimmers who know her, swim with her vs 300 subscribers to the Pink News.
Considering those “16” never bothered to put their names in writing it could be all made up.

This is nonsense. The ones most likely to be affected are her team-mates who are directly competing for team-places against her and 16 have signed a letter saying she shouldn't be allowed to swim in womens' races.
No, the ones directly affected would be those in the race, swimming alongside her, who would be further up the rankings if she was disqualified.

Third place getter Erica Sullivan wrote an article for Newsweek expressing support for her, Fourth place getter Brooke Forde made a statement of support. Alternatively they could have appeared on Fox News or alongside Ron DeSantis and complained how unfair it was and how they should have been elevated above the rankings.

They didn’t......
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 02:01
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Dre

Clearly you do not have a daughter in sports. What’s your actual skin in the game? Anyone who is being remotely honest and genuine will say the Lia Thomas fiasco is an obscene affront against women’s sports. The pressure to endorse their right to compete against women is extreme. Do you really think the athletes that ‘endorsed’ Lia did so willingly or under the pretence of being ostracized from their top tier schools of choice? Remember the academy was the easy bake oven of trans ideology - there is no forum for debate just blind acceptance lest you be canceled and face losing everything. What people say In public and private are very different now. It truly is 1984. The downstream effects from this are just getting started. The outcome will be nasty.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 02:04
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Erica Sulivan is gay. I respect her support of Thomas of course, but it should be mentioned. She might see herself as part of the LGBTQ movement and prioritise differently than a straight person.She might take one for the team.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 12th Apr 2022 at 03:48.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 04:04
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bindair Dundat View Post
Dre

Clearly you do not have a daughter in sports. What’s your actual skin in the game? Anyone who is being remotely honest and genuine will say the Lia Thomas fiasco is an obscene affront against women’s sports. The pressure to endorse their right to compete against women is extreme. Do you really think the athletes that ‘endorsed’ Lia did so willingly or under the pretence of being ostracized from their top tier schools of choice? Remember the academy was the easy bake oven of trans ideology - there is no forum for debate just blind acceptance lest you be canceled and face losing everything. What people say In public and private are very different now. It truly is 1984. The downstream effects from this are just getting started. The outcome will be nasty.
Lay off the conspiracy rubbish. Far worse if you’re a trans person in terms of being on the receiving end of violence, discrimination, mental health issues, abuse etc.

We’re facing constant war across the world, a pandemic that hasn’t ended, environmental and economic problems everywhere on the globe, yet a university level swimming competition won by one competitor (who also finished well out of the medals in several other events she raced in, where’s the advantage there?) has generated so much discussion for something that is so irrelevant to the lives of people posting here.




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Old 12th Apr 2022, 04:32
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bindair Dundat View Post
Well I guess the ultimate conclusion of this social experiment is that perhaps we should just abolish all gender categories. Why have them? Everything is just socially constructed, so let everyone decide at any given moment what they identify as. Men and women compete against each other, no sex differentiated public spaces at all. Children can transition the moment they utter any suggestion of a question about their body. Let’s see how it goes. Why not? Clearly we have been misguided all along to impose these rigid categories on people.
As there is no room for reasoned, nuanced discussion or debate with trans activists let’s just all give in. Any logical commentary about why the consequences of certain decisions have negative effects is met with cancellation and social ostracism….the label transphobe.
So go ahead and craft your brave new world and let’s chat again in five years and see how everyone is doing.
My thoughts exactly BD.
I don't see how anybody could argue then.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 04:34
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I concur. The level of attention is disproportionate. Similar to the pro life or gay marriage debate, one could ask about the real motives.

These discussions mask an underlying deep rift in our society. All these debates are in reality about moral values. And moral values are an essential component of every society, they can even be observed in chimpanzees. That is why the debate is so intense. For hundred of thousands of years, life and death of any ancestral homo tribe depended on the compliance of these group values.

Conservatives and progressives score very differently when tested on dimensions of morality. Anybody interested in his or her own distribution can do the online test here :

https://www.idrlabs.com/morality/6/test.php

The important point is: the issue inevitably creates fear among people with a certain moral predisposition. Anger is usually a secondary emotion, created by that fear. However, these very human reactions need to be respected in the discussion, simply because we are (probably) born with an idiosyncratic largely fixed set of moral values. In order to find consensus something has to give.

To viciously turn your argument around, Dre, since you acknowledge there are so many bigger and real problems on this world, could we not just let the biological women have their swim competition for themselves? Is that individual desire to be in that competition really worth the trouble?

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 12th Apr 2022 at 04:54.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 06:16
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post

To viciously turn your argument around, Dre, since you acknowledge there are so many bigger and real problems on this world, could we not just let the biological women have their swim competition for themselves? Is that individual desire to be in that competition really worth the trouble?
Well I would say as the position is now that trans people can compete in certain events, sometimes subject to strict requirements, and as far as I can see the majority of biological women (and society as a whole) are accepting of them in those events then that stands, and if the conservatives who are putting all their effort and emotion into drafting legislation to ban them then it’s up to the conservatives to redirect their energy to more useful pursuits.

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Old 12th Apr 2022, 07:53
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LapSap View Post
My thoughts exactly BD.
I don't see how anybody could argue then.
Maybe it's just an issue where there is a lack of framework for it and it's taken by surprise (wouldn't be the first or last time) and they are allowed to compete despite different biological abilities... The debate is needed first, then framework changes then hopefully separate category or changes so women can compete fairly...
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 07:59
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
I concur. The level of attention is disproportionate. Similar to the pro life or gay marriage debate, one could ask about the real motives.

These discussions mask an underlying deep rift in our society. All these debates are in reality about moral values. And moral values are an essential component of every society, they can even be observed in chimpanzees. That is why the debate is so intense. For hundred of thousands of years, life and death of any ancestral homo tribe depended on the compliance of these group values.

Conservatives and progressives score very differently when tested on dimensions of morality. Anybody interested in his or her own distribution can do the online test here :

https://www.idrlabs.com/morality/6/test.php

The important point is: the issue inevitably creates fear among people with a certain moral predisposition. Anger is usually a secondary emotion, created by that fear. However, these very human reactions need to be respected in the discussion, simply because we are (probably) born with an idiosyncratic largely fixed set of moral values. In order to find consensus something has to give.

To viciously turn your argument around, Dre, since you acknowledge there are so many bigger and real problems on this world, could we not just let the biological women have their swim competition for themselves? Is that individual desire to be in that competition really worth the trouble?
Great post and thanks for the test which was interesting.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 09:40
  #94 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 733driver View Post
Great post and thanks for the test which was interesting.
Apparently I'm a left leaning Liberal - which comes as a huge shock to me. My friends will no longer speak to me...
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 10:12
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Well I would say as the position is now that trans people can compete in certain events, sometimes subject to strict requirements,

Considering those “16” never bothered to put their names in writing it could be all made up..
We have a Paralympics for athletes who don't compete on equal terms with other athletes, so let's create a Trans-sexual- category and then the male/females or females/males can compete against each other with whatever testosterone levels they like, because other athletes won't care., although on second thoughts, I'm sure that some of these trans-athletes would complain that they are disadvantaged by competitors with these "characteristics "

These 16 did so anonymously - presumably because they feared ostracisation or unfair punishment from the university and/or swimming association - see below

"Thomas’s teammates did not identify themselves in the letter. It was sent by Nancy Hogshead-Makar, a 1984 Olympic swimming gold medalist, lawyer and chief executive of Champion Women, a women’s sports advocacy organization. She said in a telephone interview that she sent the letter on the swimmers’ behalf so they could avoid retaliation; in the letter, the swimmers claim they were told “we would be removed from the team or that we would never get a job offer” if they spoke out against Thomas’s inclusion in women’s competition."

Since "Champion Women " is an organisation is that has been in existence for more than a decade - and is not a single issue pressure group - then i think it certain that it would not have passed on this letter without having assured itself that all sixteen were members of the swimming-team. Dre - you are getting out of your depth and in danger of sinking with your wild assumptions !

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 12th Apr 2022 at 11:30.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 10:31
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Apparently I'm a left leaning Liberal - which comes as a huge shock to me. ..
Well, Croydon - 'nuff said !
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 12:19
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan View Post
We have a Paralympics for athletes who don't compete on equal terms with other athletes, so let's create a Trans-sexual- category and then the male/females or females/males can compete against each other with whatever testosterone levels they like, because other athletes won't care., although on second thoughts, I'm sure that some of these trans-athletes would complain that they are disadvantaged by competitors with these "characteristics "

These 16 did so anonymously - presumably because they feared ostracisation or unfair punishment from the university and/or swimming association - see below

"Thomas’s teammates did not identify themselves in the letter. It was sent by Nancy Hogshead-Makar, a 1984 Olympic swimming gold medalist, lawyer and chief executive of Champion Women, a women’s sports advocacy organization. She said in a telephone interview that she sent the letter on the swimmers’ behalf so they could avoid retaliation; in the letter, the swimmers claim they were told “we would be removed from the team or that we would never get a job offer” if they spoke out against Thomas’s inclusion in women’s competition."

Since "Champion Women " is an organisation is that has been in existence for more than a decade - and is not a single issue pressure group - then i think it certain that it would not have passed on this letter without having assured itself that all sixteen were members of the swimming-team. Dre - you are getting out of your depth and in danger of sinking with your wild assumptions !
Sorry, you have no evidence for your assertions. Those “16” could simply be 16 conservative Christians on the team that have a deep seated bias against trans people. If they named themselves they could dispel that, but they create this fictional “perpetual conservative victim” narrative that they can never “speak out” lest this fictional “trans mafia” attacks them. I’m sure they would be welcomed on Fox, so why not speak up?

I prefer to listen to Erica Sullivan and Brooke Forde, better swimmers than the “UPenn 16” and with the guts to name themselves.

In addition the 300 swimming supporters of Thomas includes about a half a dozen from the University of Pennsylvania who named themselves.

This is all controversy aimed at stirring up a group of people easily stirred.

Notice how the discussion has moved since the original assertions on the thread (trans UK police can body search women who will be charged with a hate crime if they refuse) have been proven false?

If anything that fake “threat” was a more relevant discussion as there was a slightly tiny chance of being in a situation of being searched by a trans officer. With this swimmer there’s zero chance of any one of us competing against her, as she’s retired from competitive swimming.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 12:47
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Sorry, you have no evidence for your assertions. Those “16” could simply be 16 conservative Christians on the team that have a deep seated bias against trans people. If they named themselves they could dispel that, but they create this fictional “perpetual conservative victim” narrative that they can never “speak out” lest this fictional “trans mafia” attacks them. I’m sure they would be welcomed on Fox, so why not speak up?
In one swimming team ? You really do out yourself as on the spectrum of completely unrealistic and unbelievable. As for naming them, I have pointed out they have named themselves to a credible intermediary. They have not gone public because they fear the trans lobby which has shown itself to be hate-filled , extremist, vindictive and vengeful. Stick this lot away in a little "trans " category and the problem disappears until one or other extremist decides to force the issue with demanding entrance to a women's refuge or rape-crisis centre.

By the way the following is from today's Daily Telegraph: the CPA is the world body for professional cyclists;

"More than 90 per cent of the women’s professional cycling peloton are opposed to racing against transgender women, according to a survey by a leading riders’ union. The Cyclistes Professionnels Associes represents men’s and women’s riders and had canvassed the views of its female members earlier this year before making representations to the sport’s governing body, the UCI, which now intends to review its rules on trans competitors. “The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 per cent did not agree with trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton,” said Marion Clignet, the triple world champion who is part of a group which wrote to the UCI last week calling for its guidance to be rescinded"

You won't believe this, but individually i do sympathise with the athletes, but don't see why they don't drop the sport-specific rules on drugs and compete in men's events. If you are going to reply that this will make them feel "self-conscious or wrong and unjustly treated" then you should consider how many hundreds more women feel the same because that person is competing against them.
:
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 13:24
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan View Post
You really do out yourself as on the spectrum of completely unrealistic and unbelievable.
Yet you constantly fail to address the fact the third and fourth place getters (and as I’ve subsequently learned the second placed getter “liked” a photo of the winner on social media which is pretty much an endorsement) have made public statements (in the 3rd place getter’s case a full Newsweek article) in support of Thomas. They have to most to gain by tearing her down but they haven’t.

As an aside I regard those who retreat to personal insults as you have done over your last few posts as unworthy of talking to.
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Old 12th Apr 2022, 13:56
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Yet you constantly fail to address the fact the third and fourth place getters (and as I’ve subsequently learned the second placed getter “liked” a photo of the winner on social media which is pretty much an endorsement.
Well, it's great to see that you understand what's really important Personally it has the value of a used Kleenex.
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