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Steam Trains linked to slavery

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Steam Trains linked to slavery

Old 9th Nov 2021, 13:23
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
Having read the predicable blather through the thread
Totally agree - it's a very small scale historical research project (of which there must be hundreds) that happens to feature slavery. Despite trying quite hard, even the Mail have failed to turn it into something sensational.

[Dons tin hat and body armour]

With regard to Cancel Culture in general, I'm the first person to rail against mob attacks on statues and other items of heritage, but it's notable that the overwhelming majority of people complaining about cancel culture are middle class white people. To us a statue of Edward Colston may be a historical artefact; a black person who's grown up in poverty may see it as a symbol of white dominance or opression, and their perspective is just as valid as ours. Wealth does trickle from one generation to the next, and some of us have been luckier than others in our choice of parents. Just as those of us who grew up in more advantaged circumstances may have benefitted in some small way from way from an ancestor who owned slaves, some people growing up in poverty may owe some small part of their disadvantaged upringing to ancestors who were victims of slavery. You can't undo that, but you can acknowledge it.

No-one's trying to pretend that slavery didn't exist, and it's impossible to undo what happened, but in the 21st Century we might all benefit from trying to see it from more than one perspective. The people who toppled Colston's statue were wrong to do so, but I'm quite glad it's ending up in a museum, complete with graffiti, rather than being restored and reinstated.

Edit: I normally wouldn't dive into this discussion, but this forum feels like home, so I hope you'll be nice to me...
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 15:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Wonder if someone can links NASA to the slave trade......just as ridiculous as linking steam trains to slave trade....!!
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 16:01
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
Having read the predicable blather through the thread, I went against my instincts, donned full PPE and actually read the Mail article. Nowhere in there does it suggest that any exhibits will be removed, ‘cancelled’ or similar, and you can bet that it being the Mail there was the slightest hint of such a thing it would be in the headline in large shouty letters!

As usual there seems to be a great fear among those on the right of the spectrum that the history that was written when they were at school in the 1950s/60s might be revisited. That being the case presumably they would be great supporters of defunding all historical research, as it might discover new angles on previous ‘truths’ that might not fit their world view.
I always found folk clubs and the music subsequently offered and entirely different perspective to the regurgitated "official" history at school.

When at school we started on the (in) Glorious Empire.. however, I used to read a lot more in those days getting books from an outlet known as a library ...hence when I posed the question about S.Africa, to wit, why haven't you mentioned concentration camps...sir ?. this " was not well received" by the pompous jobsworth and part time sociopath ostensibly being employed as a history teacher.

I gave up on " official " history years ago because the versions offered as true invariably ignore the dark and nasty sides of events which some would prefer to keep quiet and pretend never happened. The "Glorious Empire" has plenty to offer in this respect..unless you are a Mail / Telegraph reader and Brexit supporter of course.
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 16:02
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Wonder if someone can links NASA to the slave trade......just as ridiculous as linking steam trains to slave trade....!!
Piece of cake: NASA - Werner Von Braun - Use of Jewish slave labour in the V weapons programme
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 16:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Wonder if someone can links NASA to the slave trade......just as ridiculous as linking steam trains to slave trade....!!
I think the question being asked is whether (like a lot of British industry of the era) the railways were built using money substantially derived through slavery. A lot of industries built using slaves (sugar and cotton being obvious examples) continued to be lucrative for their owners long after the slaves themselves had been freed, so the timescales make sense. Another angle appears to be how and to what extent railways influenced/facilitated colonialism.

Someone's managed to get a research grant to find out more about how slavery, industry, railways and colonialism were interlinked; it actually sounds quite interesting. No-one appears to be trying to cancel anything, I'm not entirely clear why people are getting so hot and bothered. If you're not interested, don't read about it or go to any exhibitions about it. Simples...
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 16:44
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Piece of cake: NASA - Werner Von Braun - Use of Jewish slave labour in the V weapons programme
Oh, not sure that is valid... No one has paid you £ 9000:00 do do any "research" ....!!!
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 16:47
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
Oh, not sure that is valid... No one has paid you £ 9000:00 do do any "research" ....!!!
Sometimes I consult for free!
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 17:28
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Pasta
I largely share your views.
A concern I have is that the serious messages get devalued by people who seek vague links to slavery just to make a point.
As others have already commented, you can probably find a link in most of our surroundings.
When people are trying to send a serious message, presumably they want people to listen and reflect, and personally I'm not inclined to listen to people who shout and are aggressive; I prefer rational discussion and argument
and am willing to be educated.
I watch this video on YouTube which is about monuments in the US. It's quite long but I found it interesting and can honestly say it increased my understanding considerably.

Last edited by Repos; 9th Nov 2021 at 17:31. Reason: link error
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 18:52
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The U.K. benefited from the slave trade far more than is admitted at present, if you scratch the surface of the carefully buried records of compensation paid to owners that gave up slaves. A great many (most) Polititians, Lawyers and Aristocratic families had payouts amounting to many £ Billions on todays sterling, are their descendants ashamed and paying back their windfall?.

That aside slave Labour provided the cheap sugar and cotton that kept the wages of U.K. workers paid, starting the industrial revolution we all benefited from

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Old 9th Nov 2021, 21:47
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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These pompous gits had better cancel the Bible then.

God himself sold the Israelis into slavery three times. It advocates having and taking slaves, killing the men and boys and old women, and keeping the young girls for themselves.
. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately
Charming.
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Old 9th Nov 2021, 22:11
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
These pompous gits had better cancel the Bible then.
You say that like it's a bad thing...
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 07:17
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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It was the norm in those days, read the Iliad and see.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 09:07
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010 View Post
The U.K. benefited from the slave trade far more than is admitted at present, if you scratch the surface of the carefully buried records of compensation paid to owners that gave up slaves. A great many (most) Polititians, Lawyers and Aristocratic families had payouts amounting to many £ Billions on todays sterling, are their descendants ashamed and paying back their windfall?.

That aside slave Labour provided the cheap sugar and cotton that kept the wages of U.K. workers paid, starting the industrial revolution we all benefited from


It annoys me that these people are ripping down statues and generally looking for the next target and trying to put right something that happened hundreds of years ago and can never be put right, but ignore the fact that modern slavery, be it sex slaves or other is rife in our modern society today, If they want to target anything where they could have an impact on the lives of others... THAT should be their cause.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 10:52
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
It annoys me that these people are ripping down statues and generally looking for the next target and trying to put right something that happened hundreds of years ago and can never be put right, but ignore the fact that modern slavery, be it sex slaves or other is rife in our modern society today, If they want to target anything where they could have an impact on the lives of others... THAT should be their cause.
One could say the same of those who vehemently argue to keep those statues up as part of "history". Why aren't they devoting all their time and energy to ending modern day slavery rather than fighting to keep these monuments to slave traders and Confederates standing?

Statues and monuments we put in the public sphere are a lesser important issue than ending modern day slavery, but it's an issue none the less as it represents who a society chooses to represent it's values and traditions. And maybe if those in power realised it's a pretty dumb thing to keep up these statues honouring slave traders and those who profited then the issue would be over quickly. The absolute dumbest for me is those who campaign against removing Confederate monuments in the US South. Not only are Southerners idolising those who were they fighting to keep the practice of slavery legal, they are also idolising traitors and losers. The losers who lost the war. Anywhere else where losers of a war are venerated as much as the US South?
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 11:16
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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and some of us have been luckier than others in our choice of parents.
Sorry, did I miss that survey?
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 13:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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One of the cleverest solutions to one of the statues namely that of Edward Colston that ended up in the harbour came from Banksy, a Bristolian as you may know.
There was a debate in Bristol as to should it be removed and I believe the "it stays brigade" had won prior to it being pulled down.

Banky's solution was simple and also pertinent, mount him back on his plinth at an angle and add extra figures around the statue in the act of toppling it, then add a plaque explaining what and why, the Historical statue would remain with the historical baggage that it carries and the new statues would carry the rejection of people to it in the modern time and the action they took, thus commemorating that day for posterity.

I thought that was genius

but we are drifting from steam,,

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b6c7a1fb1f3d77



I have a genuine question here, do you not view a statue of a figure as art any less than a painting as opposed to simply a statue?

I ask because the likes of Remingtons Western pieces are art and cost millions and the Bomber Command memorial is an art treasure of our nation, same with the Angel of the North. The sculpters of statues torn down anywhere would have been similar prominent artists producing their work in their day.

..

Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Nov 2021 at 13:26.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 13:22
  #37 (permalink)  
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I wonder if this research might expand to include the role of the "Iron Horse" in the genocide against the native Americans?

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Old 10th Nov 2021, 18:01
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
One could say the same of those who vehemently argue to keep those statues up as part of "history". Why aren't they devoting all their time and energy to ending modern day slavery rather than fighting to keep these monuments to slave traders and Confederates standing?
Wouldn't it be better to move said statues to a different local (e.g. museum), where they can be displayed with appropriate messaging as to the historical context? Simply destroying historical works of art that some find objectionable is counter productive.
Better to educate the young about our history - both the good and the bad - than try to erase the bad parts. Pretending those things didn't happen is just a recipe for those things to be repeated.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 19:20
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Tdracer, General Lee left Dallas to take up golf in Texas. £1,000,000 price tag shows some view it as art, not a simple statue.

https://news.sky.com/story/controver...texas-12437022


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Nov 2021 at 19:32.
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Old 10th Nov 2021, 20:46
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Should we not be calling for the banning of teaching and studying Shakespeare in schools because of anti Semitism? Or providing the works of Sir Walter Scott or of R. H. Barham in libraries for the same reason? I've no doubt that the 'Tales of Uncle Remus', published in the 'Atalanta Constitution' newspaper in 1912 "in order to preserve the folklore of the Negro peoples" would now be destroyed - and maybe the newspaper files already have been...I may have to hide my copy (cost me 10p at a church fete!)

These people strike me as Philistines and Vandals of the same ilk at the ISIS...and I would deal with them the same way ISIS do....
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