Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Universal Basic Income

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Universal Basic Income

Old 15th May 2021, 19:55
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 2,130
Universal Basic Income

This'll be interesting!

UBI to be trialled in Wales, Charliegolf selflessly volunteers

CG
charliegolf is online now  
Old 15th May 2021, 20:43
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Yes
Posts: 37
Elon Musk is obviously a very smart chap and he has given his support for this.

He recently run a recruitment drive for his Tesla company. He more or less stated, applicant's needn't worry if the had no academic qualifications. How refreshing as he has not excluded anyone who could be of benifit.

Why "weed out" someone you haven't accessed??
RichardJones is offline  
Old 15th May 2021, 21:20
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Rhones-Alpes
Posts: 289
It would l be very interesting to see how this would be administered if it were real, but none of the trials so far has attempted this.

Who gets it ? Anyone born Welsh, anyone with an address in Wales, anyone who lands in Wales ? Everybody, everybody over 16, everybody over 16 except pensioners ? Would it exclude all social security benefits, if not which ones ?

These are the questions that would have to be answered for full UBI, but these trials all skip the difficult questions. Why did the Finnish trial select only the unemployed ?That may have been an attempt to examine unemployment benefits/scenarios, but in no way an attempt to see how UBI could work.
Tartiflette Fan is offline  
Old 15th May 2021, 21:35
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Edinburgh
Age: 83
Posts: 55
So I don't have to work, but I'm bored, so I go and ...
Me, a pessimist?
DType is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 01:19
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: back out to Grasse
Posts: 451
I am confident in saying that the level of unemployment in Wales will reach new heights. There is nothing more attractive to the masses than money donated to them in the belief
that lifting them out of "relative" poverty will somehow result in them acquiring a work ethic. Show me the evidence that this is not true.

Not a pessimist but a realist - tell it like it is.



Imagegear is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 03:42
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,376
The problem is that a UBI removes any incentive to work, however the generous welfare system in Europe has already done that though at least the homeless problem isn't as bad as the USA because of it.

America's lack of comprehensive a welfare structure has resulted in city streets full of people living in tents and high crime rate whereas Europe's system is financially unsustainable in its current form as more and more people decide that it's not worth working and join the gravy train.

A different approach is needed.
krismiler is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 05:16
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 43
Posts: 612
"Join the gravy train", must be spoken by someone who haven't got a flippin' clue!

I live in a country with some of the most generous social welfare nets in the world, and living off the government tit is neither easy, nor does it bring anything near the money a job will do. If you're insured against unemployment in this neck of the woods, and more than 80% are, you are eligible to receive up to 80% of your salary (capped at the equivalent of EUR 2300/Month) for a period of up to 24 months. To receive that money you must apply for at least 2 jobs per week and attend a phalanx of meetings, counselling sessions and job-hunting courses. Miss a meeting or an application, and the money's not going to be transferred. After those 24 months, or if you're not insured, you'll be on welfare which is around EUR 1000/Month. Once you're on welfare the screw is wound even tighter, you're basically the governments bitch and will be treated as such.

The lowest-paid jobs around here are paying from EUR 3000/Month and up, so calling welfare or unemployment insurance "gravy train" is about as far removed from reality as possible.

I speak from the experience of having a girl friend who suffered from almost 20 months of unemployment. It hit our economy pretty hard, and there were lots of things we had to forego that wasn't an issue when she was working. She's now gainfully employed again, and it makes a world of difference.

So, no, it's not a gravy train. It's not subsistence existence either, but it's much closer to that than gravy.
SMT Member is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 05:27
  #8 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,165
Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
I am confident in saying that the level of unemployment in Wales will reach new heights. There is nothing more attractive to the masses than money donated to them in the belief
that lifting them out of "relative" poverty will somehow result in them acquiring a work ethic. Show me the evidence that this is not true.

Not a pessimist but a realist - tell it like it is.
Nobody could ever say you were inclined to being a progressive social reformer now could they.
However, you are on fertile ground here on JB when it comes to ( Mail version ) of benefit recipients so it's only a matter of time before moral support arrives.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 06:10
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by SMT Member View Post
"Join the gravy train", must be spoken by someone who haven't got a flippin' clue!

I live in a country with some of the most generous social welfare nets in the world, and living off the government tit is neither easy, nor does it bring anything near the money a job will do. If you're insured against unemployment in this neck of the woods, and more than 80% are, you are eligible to receive up to 80% of your salary (capped at the equivalent of EUR 2300/Month) for a period of up to 24 months. To receive that money you must apply for at least 2 jobs per week and attend a phalanx of meetings, counselling sessions and job-hunting courses. Miss a meeting or an application, and the money's not going to be transferred. After those 24 months, or if you're not insured, you'll be on welfare which is around EUR 1000/Month. Once you're on welfare the screw is wound even tighter, you're basically the governments bitch and will be treated as such.

The lowest-paid jobs around here are paying from EUR 3000/Month and up, so calling welfare or unemployment insurance "gravy train" is about as far removed from reality as possible.

I speak from the experience of having a girl friend who suffered from almost 20 months of unemployment. It hit our economy pretty hard, and there were lots of things we had to forego that wasn't an issue when she was working. She's now gainfully employed again, and it makes a world of difference.

So, no, it's not a gravy train. It's not subsistence existence either, but it's much closer to that than gravy.

Where do you live that the lowest paying jobs are on EUR3000/month? Considering here in the UK the average income is £28000 then about 60% of the UK population is making less than the lowest paid where you are. Wow!
highflyer40 is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 06:19
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 0
I have no clue what form it may take, but down the line decades from now we are going to have to go down this route to some degree. There just won’t physically be enough jobs available to support the population. So many industries will be automated. Transport will be one of the first. Automated lorries, trains, taxis are all be trialed as we speak. IT is also at risk as computers learn to write their own code. Many industries will simply disappear for workers whilst others will just be staffed by a Skelton crew do maintenance.
highflyer40 is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 07:42
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,376
So, no, it's not a gravy train. It's not subsistence existence either, but it's much closer to that than gravy.
What are your income tax and VAT rates like ?

In Australia, welfare is so generous that if you have a wife, three children and no special skills, it’s not worth getting out of bed for the difference between what the dole and a unskilled factory job would pay. As a single person doing a driving job at the time, it used to annoy me that people who didn’t work at all lived better than I did after doing 50 hours on the road.

It’s the middle class that pay for all this, professionals and top executives jack up their compensation to give them what they want after tax. A middle income earner gets his income net of tax and then pays a lawyer hundreds of dollars an hour so that the lawyer still gets a decent amount after the government takes its 45% cut.

The lawyer then tells everyone how much tax he paid last year and what a good citizen he is, when all he did was pass his tax bill onto his clients.
krismiler is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 08:16
  #12 (permalink)  
Paid...Persona Grata
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Between BHX and EMA
Age: 76
Posts: 238
Researchers found the scheme left those happier and less stressed, but did not aid them in finding work.
No shit, Sherlock.
UniFoxOs is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 08:18
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: uk
Age: 64
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
What are your income tax and VAT rates like ?



The lawyer then tells everyone how much tax he paid last year and what a good citizen he is, when all he did was pass his tax bill onto his clients.
Is not that a bit like ALL the basic income you give with so much ressentment to the less "equiped" or "capable" or "adapted" or simply "lucky" recipient is going to the electricity board, baker, corner or supermarket shop, home for rent owner etc....??????
When a few percentage of rich people own more wealth than the vast majority of us and are sometimes even richer than states... we have to start thinking of sharing and redistribution. Would have Van Gogh been more prolific and given us more of his art if he had been helped with a basic income every month instead of spending so much energy and time to just survive?
Ah, Art another concept not many people grab, we could also talk about when sometimes 18 hours hard work per day, with ONE day off per year on my farm, selling all my production to satisfied customers was not generating enough income to pay all my bills...

Last edited by alicopter; 16th May 2021 at 08:51.
alicopter is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 08:47
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 448
I think the only way UBI can work is to go the whole way with it.

Everyone over 16 gets it, it is set at a high enough level that it allows an individual to exist above, just above, the poverty line.

Remove VAT from essential items, re-introduce a Luxury Item tax, and all income that is earned is taxed at a flat rate.
Avionker is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 08:56
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England - Now
Posts: 66
K'n'C - Never mind the Daily Mail and their readers being against it but if The Joseph Rowntree Foundation are against this scheme and with them in thinking it is not the answer and too simplistic. You can not call the JTF a rabid right wing organisation.
They say it is - Not affordable and unless modified actually increases poverty beyond recognition. In simple terms they say - the poor actually become worse off and the only winners are the middle income families who get more money as they are already earning and get a top up. These are not the people this type of scheme should be targeted at. I am in favour of helping those in need but a simplistic hand out of X pounds per family is not the answer. Would Prince William be entitled to it or even Boris to help support his brood? Would there be some form of means testing which would of course mean a whole new civil service department to run it. Sir Humphrey would be proud.
Don't forget that Finland, a country noted for very good progressive social reform, tried a form of UBI and found it did not work.
Headstone is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 09:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,514
that lifting them out of "relative" poverty will somehow result in them acquiring a work ethic. Show me the evidence that this is not true.

I'm sure that, as a fair-minded person with a grasp of logic, Image Gear will have examined the corollary to his 'theory'. He will, therefore, re-arrange his present income stream to reduce it to a level such as to increase his enthusiasm for work. The other possibility is that, having been fortunate in securing well-paid employment for himself, there is little impetus for (possibly a total indifference towards) improving the lot of fellow citizens. One would hesitate to suggest such a thing, since it could be construed as being uncharitable at best and selfish , greedy and self-centred at worst. Those latter qualities characterise the present regime ... so, perhaps ?

Last edited by Cornish Jack; 16th May 2021 at 10:52.
Cornish Jack is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 09:14
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nil
Posts: 2
It would go down very well in China and Russia of course. Not so well in a capitalist society like ours. Better to encourage those who must procreate at all cost ,to wait until they can afford it before asking the rest of us to keep them. I remember some of our juniot cabin crew telling me that they " I just wan me baby an soon..... I wan me bebe". No husband in sight...jus wan me bebe.
At = two porsches a child to get to adulthood not something to get involved in until you really can afford it.
grottyyottie is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 09:15
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Well, from my personal experience: here in germany, we basically already have a UBI. If you are prepared to go to the 'Amt', you will
not be out in the cold. If you have no income and have not huge sums of money to draw from, you are going to get supported. Yes, there
are differences to a UBI but the overall appearance is the same.

Exhibit A: one of our tennants, who is proud to, in his whole life, not have worked more than ten years. He is sixty now. He says that's enough.
His rent is paid by the 'Amt'. How do you 'motivate' him to go and find some work?
ThorMos is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 09:49
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: uk
Age: 64
Posts: 71
[QUOTE=ThorMos;11045507

Exhibit A: one of our tennants, who is proud to, in his whole life, not have worked more than ten years. He is sixty now. He says that's enough.
His rent is paid by the 'Amt'. How do you 'motivate' him to go and find some work?[/QUOTE]
The last thing you want is to motivate him to find work... Can you imagine having to pay someone with such a state of mind working for you? Your productivity would go down (look at the UK productivity!) and he would cost you much more than his wages in repairing his actions or lack of. I had one employee like that on the farm once. He was taking home more money than I was paying myself and his lack of responsability and slack work ethic were a catastrophy. On the other end, he was "normal", clever and even charming enough when I recruited him... As a friend he was perfect, as an employee a nightmare.
alicopter is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 10:34
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,680
I think these kinds of social experiments are really important, as we are in the run-up towards a society that will effectively not be resource constrained. What is work and why do we do it? What happens when most of what we previously regarded as work is done for us and/or becomes unnecessary? I don’t think for a minute that there are any easy answers to these questions but that shouldn’t stop us trying to find some.

At least by doing research we can get some idea of how this affects individuals and groups, so we are not going towards the future without a clue about what might happen next...
FullWings is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.