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UFOs... real or nonsense

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UFOs... real or nonsense

Old 22nd Apr 2021, 17:05
  #61 (permalink)  
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Science provides constraints such as the conservation of this, that and the other. Once you go beyond what you know and beyond the framework of reality as you are able to understand it, there are no limits and you are free to believe in anything including Star Trek physics and other forms of magic.
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Old 22nd Apr 2021, 20:16
  #62 (permalink)  
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Well someone must believe in them after all we sent a message out to them on voyager.
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Old 22nd Apr 2021, 23:21
  #63 (permalink)  
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If I throw a piece of bread out of my back door the lawn turns white.

When I was writing my story, I needed to first get intelligent life into the new universe, and then allow the beings outside Spacetime to realise that their perfect design-code for material beings, had after all, taken root. I seized on the 5th force. A lot of people do. Some journal or another reports scientists discovering it almost routinely, but back then I not only needed to get information past the ultimately hot plasma of the early creation but eventually allow a feint signal to reach beings that had despaired of every hearing from their creation again. I gave myself licence for its use.

It had to be instantaneous. Nothing else would do. It had to be quiet, no chatter-come-noise. Nifty stuff, this 5th force. But what if humans do one day detect such a wondrous carrier; pulling on the cords of spacetime rather then sending waves through it. We'd know that similarly equipped beings would already be aware of us. Beings, no doubt with big heads and anti-gravity chairs, would have detected us thousands of years ago. First sentient thoughts becoming sapient, that's a real go-to project. Fine, but I'd guess they'd monitor us for a few hundred thousand years. At first they'd know our thoughts and not deem them worth the journey. But imagine how surprised they'd be when they saw clear plans of the Antikythera mechanism and realised that we were nowhere near ready to have designed that. Someone must have got here first. Now they'd be motivated to set course and their knowledge of 5th sufficient to use it for travel. But, that sends a shockwave across the Universe and they really, really, don't want these clever visitors to know they're on their way. After all, they'd crept silently to planet Earth, so their motives are suspect. The journey is going to be at point-five 5th. Should arrive their time, July 1947.

Last edited by Loose rivets; 23rd Apr 2021 at 00:02.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 05:59
  #64 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Kelly Hopper View Post
...But I have seen things that defy explanation....
I am sure that many of us here have seen strange things that ‘defy explanation’. But there IS usually an explanation, and alien craft is by far the least likely explanation.

UFO sightings are a bit like Bigfoot sightings, blurry, fleeting images, usually in remote places, seen by few people and often in the dark and at a distance. That should tell you something about their veracity.
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 11:58
  #65 (permalink)  
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a bit like Bigfoot sightings
In Australia known as 'Yowies'.....and in all these years no one has ever found a bone, stumbled upon a burial site, produced any form of relic...

(Bill O'Chee's memory excepted!)
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 13:06
  #66 (permalink)  
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but one thing I do know is that the laws of physics apply equally everywhere in the universe
Life is a form of Physics, ergo life must be possible anywhere
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 13:35
  #67 (permalink)  
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 14:44
  #68 (permalink)  
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Imagine you are a tribesperson on a remote island. You live a generally fulfilling life, food is plentiful, conflict with neighbouring tribes is sporadic and rarely deadly, there's a warm welcome for you when you get home from the hunt..

It's 1940 (not that you know that) and until now, your mental map of the world has no place for radio communication, for rapid travel at height over long distances, for globe-spanning empires.

What do you make of the sudden arrival of men with strikingly different appearances, all dressed alike, who drop from the sky along the beach and start digging holes along the treeline?

Why should we be any better at guessing the origin and purpose of weird airborne craft?
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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 15:39
  #69 (permalink)  
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Imagine you are a tribesperson on a remote island. You live a generally fulfilling life, food is plentiful, conflict with neighbouring tribes is sporadic and rarely deadly, there's a warm welcome for you when you get home from the hunt..
What do you make of the sudden arrival of men with strikingly different appearances
The inhabitants of North Sentinel Island have had that problem solved for years.


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Old 23rd Apr 2021, 16:05
  #70 (permalink)  
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Just to state again, that our radio and television transmissions cannot reach very far in space, no matter how much time has passed. Even the 'vacuum' of empty space attenuates signals, and our electromagnetic transmissions will be a lower amplitude than the noise floor of even the very best receivers after not very far in space. When I get a moment, I might try to work out a link budget to show how far that distance could be.

So there are almost certainly many intelligent populations throughout the universe, but we are all much too far apart to ever communicate with - let alone visit each other. Perhaps quantum entanglement might allow communication, but we are not there yet.

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Old 24th Apr 2021, 13:11
  #71 (permalink)  
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Bruce Maccabee

First of all I do not endorse this comment , however it adds to some aspects of the discussion.

APRIL, 2021
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The origin(s) of these NHI is (are) unknown but they may come from other planets using transportation technology based on very advanced physical principles.
President Joe Biden of the U.S.A. and leaders of other countries may find it necessary to develop a single, uniform, world-wide policy for co-existing and interacting with NHI. The policy should be world-wide because allowing various countries to develop their own policies could result in some form of disaster.
If the NAVY TASK FORCE discovers that some UAP are evidence for NHI, the Task Force will, I presume, write an unclassified report (with classified appendix, if needed) ready for publication. However, it might be that the policy makers in the Administration, when confronted with the UAPTF report, might decide to withhold all or part of the unclassified report because of a perceived negative impact on the citizens of the USA and other countries.
The “Yes or No” policy for releasing the report would be based, in part, upon whether the Task Force determines that they “love” us (for example, if they made us or we are “pets”), “hate” us (for example, if they view us as a potential danger to them or their activities) or are indifferent to us (for example, they do whatever they want to do and ignore us as long as we don’t get in their way).
The release policy may also be based partially on the determination that “they” are as curious about us as we are about them. An example of this possibility is the series of radar and visual sightings made during the early morning of December 31, 1978 about twenty miles off the east coast of the South Island of New Zealand.
Wellington Air Traffic Control radar, located at the south end of the North Island detected unknown radar “targets” (radar reflective objects) that seemingly traveled along with a freighter aircraft that was flying south to Christchurch, a city on the east side of the South Island, about 160 miles south-southwest of Wellington. One such target approached the airplane in a sort of stepwise manner, ultimately getting so close to the airplane that the radar could not separate the unknown target from the airplane target. As the radar operator told the plane, “There’s a strong target right in formation with you now…could be left or right … Your target has doubled in size.” This radar event is referred, in the more detailed recounting below, as the “Double Sized Target” event. After about 30 seconds the unknown target moved away and the airplane target reduced to normal size. (Further details are given below.)
The action of the unknown, temporarily getting very close to the plane, appears to have been deliberate. There were, after all, plenty of places for the unknown to be besides near the airplane. So, this raises the question, why did it get so close to the airplane? Curiosity could be one answer and an intent to scare the people in the airplane might be another answer. Either answer would be consistent with NHI as being the cause of the unknown targets.
Starting in the latter 1940’s military personnel and citizens in all countries and in all walks of life began reporting unusual objects traveling through the sky. They came to be known as unidentified flying objects (UFOs). Hundreds of reports per year from 1947 through 1969 were collected and analyzed by three U. S. Air Force projects , SIGN (1948), GRUDGE (1949 – 1951) and the well-known PROJECT BLUE BOOK (1952 – 1969).
After studying some 13,000 reports BLUE BOOK concluded that most could be explained as ordinary phenomena that were misperceived but that 701 resisted explanation because of their non-aerodynamic shapes (sphere, disc, cylinder), because of the absence of recognizable features (wings, stabilizers, fuselage, propellers, jet engines), because of their ability to hover with no recognizable means of support (anti-gravity?) and extreme dynamics (high acceleration leading to extreme speed - thousands of miles per hour - being achieved in a second or less). BLUE BOOK then claimed, without proof, that the reports of these 701 sightings were faulty or incomplete and that if they (USAF investigators) had had more information about them they, too, could have been explained.
After BLUE BOOK closed in 1969 the Air Force responded to queries by handing out a “Fact Sheet” that said that after investigating thousands of sightings it had found nothing that was a threat to the United States and nothing indicating that reports of UAP were evidence of an advanced technology or Non-Human Intelligence (NHI).
More recently there have been sightings by U.S. Navy fighter pilots and sailors who have detected and tracked UAP using modern radar and optical devices. The Navy has confirmed that the UAP are unknown objects or phenomena. The new radar and observational data confirm what has been reported ever since the first UFO sightings in the late spring of 1947, namely that these objects can undergo extreme acceleration and reach very high speeds. They can also hover above ground despite the lack of observable means for support such as rotating blades as on a helicopter.
The most intriguing question is, could these objects or phenomena, at least some of them, be evidence that the Earth is being visited by Non-Human Intelligences (NHI) that travel around by means of various technologically advanced Alien Transportation Vehicles (ATV)?
In order to answer this question the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI), responding to direction by Congress, has set up a task force (the Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon Task Force, UAPTF) to collect and analyze reports of UAP/UFO sightings and prepare an unclassified report for publication.
The Navy can be commended for “taking the bull by the horns” and setting up a program to tackle the above question “head on.” However, investigations and analyses of many unclassified reports by civilians (and military) over the last 70 years have already led many investigators to conclude that at least some of the reports of UAP are evidence of NHI. The Task Force is likely to confirm this conclusion based on their studies of classified (and unclassified) sightings.

Last edited by Haraka; 24th Apr 2021 at 15:38.
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 20:10
  #72 (permalink)  
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Old 24th Apr 2021, 22:18
  #73 (permalink)  
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Addressing the topic here. Simples. If you take out the 'or' what are you left with.....?
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 08:11
  #74 (permalink)  
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So on one hand some people believe that alien spaceships have visited Earth but because they have no physical evidence
of a spacecraft, only photographs and eye witnesses, to use as proof the whole idea is nonsense and these people are nutters.

On the other hand some people believe that their, one of many, "Gods" is all around us all day every day doing "His" work and even
though they are unable to provide physical proof, or photographs, to prove it they are not talking nonsense and so are not classed
as nutters.

I wonder which group comes across as the most credible? I know my answer and yes it's not the second group.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 08:27
  #75 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nervous SLF View Post
So on one hand some people believe that alien spaceships have visited Earth but because they have no physical evidence
of a spacecraft, only photographs and eye witnesses, to use as proof the whole idea is nonsense and these people are nutters.

On the other hand some people believe that their, one of many, "Gods" is all around us all day every day doing "His" work and even
though they are unable to provide physical proof, or photographs, to prove it they are not talking nonsense and so are not classed
as nutters.

I wonder which group comes across as the most credible? I know my answer and yes it's not the second group.
False dichotomy. Maybe there’s a lot of people who don’t believe in either gods or alien visitation.

while SCIENCE tells us that life almost certainly exists in the universe, there is no good evidence nor even a reasonable likelihood that they visit us.

Anecdotes, radar anomalies and blurred photos is not evidence except to the willingly credulous.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 08:54
  #76 (permalink)  
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Ramble on, compliments Sir, a good post.
Trouble is, there are always comments from non aviators or jobbing journos , who, if you had strapped them in at altitude and told them to shut the # up and just watch, would then be unable to find the words to try and drag down the informed and privileged among us.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 09:12
  #77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
Given that there are millions and millions of stars in the universe, and we are now finding Earth like planets around some of them, it would be really really odd if our Earth was the ONLY planet in the universe with intelligent life. The conditions for intelligent life to develop are almost certainly not unique to our Earth, but must arise on many other similar planets.

So there are likely to be lots of planets throughout the universe supporting intelligent life and world populations similar to our own. However, the distances between us all are so vast that we will never be able to communicate with each other.

We are just about still receiving transmissions from the Voyager probe, which is at the edge of our Solar system. But the next nearest star to us is 4 light years away! That's traveling at 300,000,000 meters per second for four years. Any radio signal we transmit from Earth will be lost in the noise well before that distance. SETI is unlikely to find anything genuine from other intelligent nations for the same reason - you need a transmitter with the power output of a star to be detected over that sort of distance.

For similar reasons, it is hard to believe that other intelligent nations would travel so far - at least 4 light years in each direction just to visit us. It has taken the Voyager probe 43 years just to reach the outskirts of our own Solar System, so it would take aliens multiple lifetimes just to get to Earth. What would be the point?

I think that anything we might see around Earth will be our own military forces, or secret test aircraft, or meteorites, or other atmospheric lighting effects. The reason some are questioned about UFOs by the authorities is probably to check if anything secret was observed too clearly.
You can't change the laws of physics - but you might not know all of them yet. Wormholes, warp drive, time dilation - there could be lots of technology and physics that make it much easier to travel between solar systems. We might know as much about space travel as a 16th Century sailor knows about aircraft or satellites.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 10:09
  #78 (permalink)  
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Knowledge of a law of physics does not determine if it affects us.

The 16th century sailor was subject to tides, storms, weather patterns, ability of different sail types to provide power etc.

These and many more affected the sailor then (and today) regardless of understanding.

Put that 16th century sailor in a boat today and the basics remain the same.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 10:15
  #79 (permalink)  
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If at some stage in the future it is "proved" that there are objects in the sky which cannot be explained by any current technology I have an explanation which I don't think has been suggested on this thread.
I do not believe that the lack of photographic evidence is important. I suggest that you try taking a photo with your mobile phone of an aircraft flying at 40,000 ft or of an aircraft that passes overhead at 500 ft. The results would probably be blurry images akin to the alleged ufo pictures. Yes you can get good photos in those two cases but only with better equipment and prior knowledge of the event. Rather than relying on photographic evidence, much of it fake, I am swayed by the reports of objects tracked on radar performing impossible feats while also being observed by pilots. I believe there have been several reports of such events.
What puzzles me is the wide variety of ufo types which are reported. If they are truly alien why would there be so many varieties? Here comes my wacky theory which will be shot down by all and sundry but I shall ignore your slingshots.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 12:17
  #80 (permalink)  
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This is only now the beginning of this science.. Imagine 100 years from now? Or even one million years from now if we are still here?

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