Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

George Floyd

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

George Floyd

Old 10th Apr 2021, 05:31
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,487
George Floyd

Posted because all we get on our media here in Oz is a continual replay of the kneeling on neck, nothing else, and castigation of the police. All the Minneapolis police department folk are giving testimony that the neck restraint is not taught, the video suggests differently. Found the lead up to the final event of interest, but having no knowledge of drugs and effects not in a position to comment. Comments on the Y'tube site vary. Understand if Mods delete. Warning, much cussing.


Last edited by megan; 10th Apr 2021 at 05:41.
megan is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2021, 08:19
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,714
Originally Posted by megan View Post
Posted because all we get on our media here in Oz is a continual replay of the kneeling on neck, nothing else, and castigation of the police. All the Minneapolis police department folk are giving testimony that the neck restraint is not taught, the video suggests differently. Found the lead up to the final event of interest, but having no knowledge of drugs and effects not in a position to comment. Comments on the Y'tube site vary. Understand if Mods delete. Warning, much cussing.

The testimony of a current Minneapolis PD use of force instructor in how the Officers were trained is relevant to this case. The opinion of a cop from Philadelphia who retired in 1983 is not. As multiple witnesses in the trial including the use of force instructor and the Minneapolis Police Chief have testified the use of a knee to the neck like Chauvin did is not an approved procedure. He was never trained to use that procedure. He shows a blurry slide that according to him shows Police being trained in that procedure, on closer inspection (that video at 17:30) you can see the training slide shows an officer not putting the full weight of his torso onto the neck as Chauvin did as his knees are bent, he's also positioning his knee towards his shoulder blades. They are also only meant to use this technique until the suspect is not a threat and then place him in the recovery position to alleviate any positional asphyxia, as that slide states, however Chauvin did not do this.


As far as the role drugs played in the event? He had an amount of Fentanyl in his system over the amount that will cause death in some people. As a regular user he had probably built up a tolerance to the drug, and the amount found in system was not enough to definitely cause on overdose. DUI arrests have shown multiple people arrested driving vehicles with fentanyl levels higher than Floyd. However the key point for the prosecution is that a death from a Fentanyl overdose happens a certain way. Floyd's taped death did not show these symptoms. Dr Martin Tobin, considered one of the world's experts on respiration, testified that Floyd's respiration rate remained normal whereas a Fentanyl induced death would've seen a decrease in breathing rate. He did not have constricted pupils or go into a coma like a Fentanyl victim would have. His CO2 levels measured in the hospital were consistent with someone who who had been subject to asphyxiation not overdose.


Key quote from Dr. Tobin: A healthy person subjected to what Mr. Floyd was subjected to would have died as a result


The medical examiner who wrote the memo the man in the video seems to think is a "smoking gun" for Chauvin's defence has testified in court that Floyd's death was due to law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression. That underlying health conditions and drugs in system may have exacerbated the situation, but the primary cause was the knee on the neck cutting off his airway.


Let's have a look at the actions of the officers: (warning, these videos show the distressing death of Floyd):




At 15:53 Officer Lane (4 days on the job) wants to roll Floyd over, Chauvin (20 year veteran) overrules him. At 18:03, after an EMT/Firefighter pleads with Police to check his pulse, one officer checks his pulse and states "I can't find one". Now someone with even the most basic training in first aid (which these officers would have) knows the lack of a pulse requires the immediate commencement of CPR. The officers continued to apply pressure to the neck of Floyd for a further 2:40 minutes after the "I can't find a pulse" statement was made.




Floyd is bleeding from his nose. Officers do nothing. Chauvin has his torso over Floyd's neck, his left foot is barely touching the ground or even off it meaning all that weight is going down into Floyd's neck. At 2:46 one of the officers says "He's talking, he's fine". Dr Tobin testified in court that being able to talk is not a sign that someone is not in respiratory distress. Even by that standard when Floyd stops talking and becomes unresponsive Chauvin continues to apply pressure to the now unconscious/dead Floyd for a further 4:30 minutes.


I can express some sympathy for Officer Lane who made some basic attempts to help Floyd but was overruled by superior officers. The other 3, especially Chauvin? That goes beyond incompetence to criminal negligence, murder or manslaughter IMO. The last video at 9:49 contains a statement from a bystander to Chauvin that sums it all up "that man will haunt you the rest of your life"
dr dre is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2021, 10:08
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: La Rochelle.
Age: 46
Posts: 537
I've watched the court coverage closely and all the videos so far submitted as evidence. I genuinely cannot comprehend Chauvin's actions. It seems he either executed George Floyd in anger, is so thick he didn't realise the damage he was doing or he didn't want to lose face in front of junior officers and the people watching and shouting at him so continued to apply pressure to Mr Floyds neck. The defence side of the case which starts next week will be interesting.
clareprop is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2021, 10:11
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South East of Penge
Age: 72
Posts: 1,673
What this does illustrate is some fundamental features of the American Legal system , noteably the employment of contracted "expert" testimony on behalf of the State.
The Defense has yet to present.
It will be interesting to see how this is reported when that time comes.
Haraka is online now  
Old 10th Apr 2021, 11:19
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,714
Originally Posted by Haraka View Post
noteably the employment of contracted "expert" testimony on behalf of the State.
Expert in inverted commas?

Dr Martin Tobin literally wrote the book on Mechanical Ventilation. You're not going to anyone more qualified in the world to explain what caused a person to stop breathing.

Autopsy report. It was acknowledged he had underlying health issues and evidence of drug use, but the actual cause of death? Homicide by Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

The defence is going to have to find some significant people who are willing to go against the overwhelming amount of medical experts who have testified that Floyd was killed by restraint to the neck. They will have to find experts with greater authority on breathing than Dr Tobin, they will have to find someone with more direct knowledge of Floyd's death than the medical examiner who did the autopsy, or the EMT's on scene or the ER doctor who pronounced death, all whom have appeared for the prosecution.

Now I have no doubt they'll find some with medical qualifications who, for various reasons, will want to see Derek Chauvin walk free. But how will those witnesses be more credible than those who did the autopsy or were on the scene? How will they debunk Dr Tobin, the world expert on breathing, because the defence cross examination of Tobin was a pathetically weak character assassination?
dr dre is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 06:26
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,376
Most police departments in the USA ban or severely restrict use of the "bar arm" choke hold, let alone allow an officer to kneel on someones neck. What the officer must have been thinking in keeping the pressure on for that long is anyones guess.

However, George Floyd is hardly the innocent victim and hero that certain parts of the media make him out to be. He had an extensive criminal history involving armed robbery and drugs, including participating in a home invasion where a woman was struck in the head with a pistol by another member of the gang.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/...​​
krismiler is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 08:37
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
However, George Floyd is hardly the innocent victim and hero that certain parts of the media make him out to be. He had an extensive criminal history involving armed robbery and drugs, including participating in a home invasion where a woman was struck in the head with a pistol by another member of the gang.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/...​​

It is reasonable to assume that some of the Jews murdered by the Nazis were criminals. Did that make them culpable in or deserving of their murder? You seem to be pursuing a wholly erroneous and dubious line of argument.

That George Floyd had a criminal past, involving crimes which got him jail time, is well known. But it is also completely irrelevant. In the situation being discussed he was quite clearly killed by the actions of at least one policeman. There was clearly no lawful or reasonable cause for this to be the outcome. And Chauvin will doubtless be found to have murdered him. So yes, George Floyd was an innocent victim.
Torquetalk is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 09:32
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 788
Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
That George Floyd had a criminal past, involving crimes which got him jail time, is well known. But it is also completely irrelevant. In the situation being discussed he was quite clearly killed by the actions of at least one policeman. There was clearly no lawful or reasonable cause for this to be the outcome. And Chauvin will doubtless be found to have murdered him. So yes, George Floyd was an innocent victim.

Playing Devil's advocate here. You have already found him guilty (he probably is) without hearing all the evidence. As have most other people, so it does seem that Chauvin is going to find it hard to get a fair trial, as people are already prejudiced. I'm sure the defence will use that in an attempt to get him off as it is very difficult to change pre-conceived attitudes.

Whatever the result, there will be more rioting, especially if he walks.


Saintsman is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 09:47
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
Playing Devil's advocate here. You have already found him guilty (he probably is) without hearing all the evidence. As have most other people, so it does seem that Chauvin is going to find it hard to get a fair trial, as people are already prejudiced. I'm sure the defence will use that in an attempt to get him off as it is very difficult to change pre-conceived attitudes.

Whatever the result, there will be more rioting, especially if he walks.
No I haven‘t found him guilty Saintsman; that is for the court. But I think he manifestly is guilty as there is direct evidence of what happened that appears incontrovertible.

I imagine jury selection and finding someone who has had no exposure to the evidence or does not know the case will be extremely difficult. Is trial by jury a right? Does the defendent have the right to opt for a judge‘s determination?

In court, the jury will see and hear what is largely in the public domain. Plus some other testimony, which has so far been damning. They will also hear the defence‘s case. The presentation of alternative perspectives may also have a profound effect on jury members, especially if they are well-made legal points.

But I wouldn‘t hold out much hope for Chauvin: He was a killing waiting to happen. The failing is in him ever being allowed to serve so long without known issues being addressed.

If he walks given what is already in the public domain, yes there will be serious disturbances. And who would be surprised? It would mean that the police can kill a man in plain public view and get away with it. You bet there will be disturbances.

If he is found guilty there may very well also be disturbances, because these events are catalysts for long-standing frustrations at the dealings of a largely white and repressive police force in dealing with largely black and poor populations.
Torquetalk is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 11:20
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 493
Because a lot of black Americans in poor neighbourhoods in the US see themselves; their brother; their father; their son; their friend in that “dead beat“.

There was nothing extraordinary about GF. Poor, history of substance dependence, criminal record, jail time. That describes a lot of people. And that‘s why his death and the manner of his killing is seen as representative of a broader problem.

That you don‘t feel his life was worth the fuss reflects the disconnect between the consciousness of different sections of societies and the lives they are living. In death his life has mattered more than he would ever have imagined.

* Fentanyl works the opposite way to cocaine. He was not aggressive or pumped. If anything his reactions and thinking would have been slower. There is no evidence to suggest that GF was a danger to anyone at any stage of the entire incident.
Torquetalk is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 11:30
  #11 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,085
Floyd was resisting arrest having recently walked out of a shop refusing to pay for goods he had taken. Wouldn't this make a conviction for murder, rather than manslaughter, by a law enforcement officer attempting to conduct a lawful arrest a difficult charge to stick?
parabellum is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 11:36
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: La Rochelle.
Age: 46
Posts: 537
Although he is no ordinary man though, he had a history of violence, was known to police and was drug affected at the time,
He also appeared to try to turn his life around :
After Floyd's release, he became more involved with Resurrection Houston, a Christian church and ministry, where he mentored young men and posted anti-violence videos to social media.[ He delivered meals to senior citizens and volunteered with other projects, such as the Angel By Nature Foundation, a charity founded by rapper Trae tha Truth. Later he became involved with a ministry that brought men from the Third Ward to Minnesota in a church-work program with drug rehabilitation and job placement services. A friend of Floyd acknowledged that Floyd "had made some mistakes that cost him some years of his life," but that he had been turning his life around through religion.
However, neither of the above are in any way relevant. He isn't on trial, Derek Chauvin is.
clareprop is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 12:13
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: Mesopotamos
Posts: 1
That you don‘t feel his life was worth the fuss reflects the disconnect between the consciousness of different sections of societies and the lives they are living
To me you've just described the rationale behind America's growing number of gated communities, however the fuss of looting and torching buildings doesn't inspire any solidarity in me for their cause.

When I first went backpacking across Europe in my early twenties I once stayed in a 4 bedroom dorm at a youth hostel with a white New Yorker policeman of similar age who looked jaded but was friendly nonetheless. During the day I met a black American who was looking for a room so invited him to our dorm as we had 2 empty beds. This seriously p!ssed off the policeman of which the black American had sensed this and moved to another dorm the next day. Later the policeman confided to me that he had seen one of his colleagues senselessly killed by a black American while on duty and described it in some gruesome detail, it clearly had affected him and he just wasn't in the mood. It was so sad to see two highly intelligent individuals be divided by such prejudices that relentlessly keep feeding themselves and end up polarising even more people for no good in the long run.

On a side note, at the same youth hostel I somehow managed to gain the company of two of the hottest American women at the hostel without even trying (I was better looking back then). This really, really p!ssed off a couple of white American males who got very vocal about it and I actually feared they may resort to violence. Some people are just [email protected] up, but that's no reason to loot and torch the place.
cattletruck is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 12:59
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Floyd was resisting arrest having recently walked out of a shop refusing to pay for goods he had taken. Wouldn't this make a conviction for murder, rather than manslaughter, by a law enforcement officer attempting to conduct a lawful arrest a difficult charge to stick?
He was arrested because he tried to buy something with a counterfeit $20 bill. The staff did not accept the fake bill and called the police - something they regretted later, as they did not expect the incident to end in GF’s death.

And no, him having been suspected of having committed a crime is not a mitigating circumstance, as there is no evidence that he was a threat to anyone and all reasonable pleas and actions that would have preserved his life were ignored. His treatment was brutal and callous. GF was murdered in plain sight.


cattletruck

Yes, the white-black division in the US cannot be overstated and is dismal. Same country, sometimes same service or company; but different worlds.

Last edited by Torquetalk; 11th Apr 2021 at 13:44.
Torquetalk is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 14:24
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,714
Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
Yes, the white-black division in the US cannot be overstated and is dismal. Same country, sometimes same service or company; but different worlds.
You can see the racial divisions in America by looking at people who are fairly indifferent to Officer Chauvin putting a knee into Floyd’s neck or are trying to deflect from what happened by whatever reasoning excuses the police’s actions on the day (Floyd was on drugs, Floyd had stolen goods, Floyd had a criminal record, the cops were afraid for their safety, the cops had no other choice).

I’ve noticed there’s a lot of overlap between that group and those who expressed extreme outrage at Colin Kapernick and sports players putting a knee on the ground before a sports match. Which didn’t kill a single person. I can only really conclude they don’t see Floyd’s life as valuable as others.

Maybe a hint as to where the sentiment behind “Black Lives Matter” comes from. That knee to the neck of Floyd did not only cause his death but was a symbol that African Americans were very familiar with.
dr dre is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 15:47
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London
Posts: 424
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Floyd was resisting arrest having recently walked out of a shop refusing to pay for goods he had taken. Wouldn't this make a conviction for murder, rather than manslaughter, by a law enforcement officer attempting to conduct a lawful arrest a difficult charge to stick?
Differing definitions of the terms "murder" and "manslaughter" between the USA and UK are relevant here.

The highest charge against Chauvin is unintentional "murder in the second degree" - which in Minnesota is defined as follows...

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.


Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
stagger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 17:27
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 67
Posts: 3,585
Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
Whatever the result, there will be more rioting, especially if he walks.
To me, this is the biggest issue - how in the can Chauvin get a fair trial when anyone with half a brain knows that if he's not convicted there is going to be massive rioting?
Those on the jury are going to be under a microscope after the trail (regardless of the outcome but especially if they don't convict) - and death threats are likely.
In short, you couldn't pay me enough to be on that jury...
tdracer is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 17:40
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,863
Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
To me, this is the biggest issue - how in the can Chauvin get a fair trial when anyone with half a brain knows that if he's not convicted there is going to be massive rioting?
Those on the jury are going to be under a microscope after the trail (regardless of the outcome but especially if they don't convict) - and death threats are likely.
In short, you couldn't pay me enough to be on that jury...
Though I suspect a number of books will be written by jurors.
West Coast is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 17:56
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Floyd was resisting arrest having recently walked out of a shop refusing to pay for goods he had taken. Wouldn't this make a conviction for murder, rather than manslaughter, by a law enforcement officer attempting to conduct a lawful arrest a difficult charge to stick?
The problem is that after arresting him, handcuffs and all, Chauvin continued to kneel on his neck. The appropriate action would have been to roll him on his side and wait for help transporting him. Instead, he turned an arrest into an assault.
MarcK is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2021, 19:04
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
To me, this is the biggest issue - how in the can Chauvin get a fair trial when anyone with half a brain knows that if he's not convicted there is going to be massive rioting?
Those on the jury are going to be under a microscope after the trail (regardless of the outcome but especially if they don't convict) - and death threats are likely.
In short, you couldn't pay me enough to be on that jury...
Some interesting assumptions about the nature and direction of threat and fairness tdracer. Has there been any history, from Rodney King onwards, of jury members being threatened in trials where a black person has been assaulted (or killed) by the police and no conviction result? civil disturbance obviously. But the targeting of individuals on a jury? Not heard much of that.

Mind you, I also haven’t heard much about black school shooters. Or black mall shooters. Or Black shooters attacking white folk in church. Or black shooters attacking Jews.

On the other hand I have heard plenty about white loonies who kill other people because they feel threatened. And have ready access to guns.

And I don’t recall a big wave of black rioters trying to take back control of The Capitol, despite a long history of black voter suppression in many states and only recent progress on civil rights in law.

Yep. Threat is a funny old business when it comes to colour.


The jury selection involved filtering out 85 from 100 screened: 8 are white; 4 are black; 2 identify as inter-racial. 9 are women; five are men. I would have confidence in them to give Chauvin due process and a fair trial. But given the information in the public domain, the defence had better have some blind-siding evidence to persuade them that he did not murder GF. Because it looks like he did exactly that.
Torquetalk is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.