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George Floyd

Old 12th Apr 2021, 19:02
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
What I do know is that in every reported 'hate crime' against Asians in the greater Seattle metro area in the last year, the suspect has been black (although you have to dig a bit to find that out - the media routinely ignores that tidbit). My wife is Asian, she once asked me why black people are so mean.
Affirmative Action - you know, legal discrimination - is primarily an excuse to discriminate against people of Asian descent since it's not whites who are disproportionately represented in college admissions and high tech professions - it's Asian Americans.

But all of this fails to address my original question - do you honestly think that Chauvin can possibly get a fair trial when it's widely assumed that anything other than murder conviction will result in wide spread rioting?
Yes I understand your point about PD systems - a complex matter with no easy answer. There is also no justification for discrimination and scapegoating and I am sorry your wife experiences that. Bad treatment begets the same; Asian Americans are no doubt an available and visible target for the frustrated and dispossessed to take their frustrations out on. Nothing like being kicked a bit to make you a bit mean.

That said, those wrongs are no good reason to look away from either the big picture or the detail picture. The current polarised narratives about police violence are failing the US. What happened to that man simply cannot be justified; it was obscene.

Do I think Chauvin can get a fair trial? Yes, absolutely. It's a trial with a carefully selected jury. They are there to do an important task and the screeners were satisfied that they would not be prejudicially influenced by the media coverage or their own opinions. And if you were on that jury td, you would clearly wish a fair trial for him. And so would I. The last thing the jury should be considering would be anything other than the evidence and the arguments. In fact, they will have been instructed to disregard anything else.
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Old 12th Apr 2021, 19:32
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
Hi Torque. I agree with most of what you say regarding the stats with the exception of this part, in that the Asian community in the US have the highest wealth and economic performance per capita, so are the least likely to be in poor urban areas or associated socio economic bracket. This is generally put down to a culture of hard work and placing high value on academic achievement at a young age, so they are the best performing ethnic group in education. Thus the crime statistics against them don't stack up in the way I think you say.
That's the problem with looking at ethnicity and culture in a generalised way I guess. I appreciate the point entirely that many Asian Americans are high performing, both academically and in business, and this broad group is perhaps less likely to be exposed to poor urban environments where the environmental stresses are great and bad things happen everyday. Not all make up that high median; and plenty make their living running stores in poor neighbourhoods and by virtue of that alone are exposed to a lot of unpleasantness.
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Old 12th Apr 2021, 21:18
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
Yes

Do I think Chauvin can get a fair trial? Yes, absolutely. It's a trial with a carefully selected jury. They are there to do an important task and the screeners were satisfied that they would not be prejudicially influenced by the media coverage or their own opinions. And if you were on that jury td, you would clearly wish a fair trial for him. And so would I. The last thing the jury should be considering would be anything other than the evidence and the arguments. In fact, they will have been instructed to disregard anything else.
OK, I still agree, but it will still result in rioting, since it's never enough to the BLM
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Old 12th Apr 2021, 23:07
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
OK, I still agree, but it will still result in rioting, since it's never enough to the BLM
tbh lom, I don’t really see how you expect that it would be. Unless you think that this is only about GF. Or otherwise, that one conviction could satisfy the resentment behind the issues involved.
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Old 12th Apr 2021, 23:33
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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As apparently it requires a unanimous jury to convict, I doubt very much that there will be guilty verdict. It does seem very rare that in any country, a killing or serious wounding by police leads to a conviction, however well deserved it would be...

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Old 13th Apr 2021, 00:24
  #46 (permalink)  
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Latest news is that a traffic cop in Minnesota can’t tell the difference between a taser and a gun so accidentally kills a twenty-year-old black man during a traffic stop.

‘“Holy shit, I just shot him,” the officer can be heard shouting.’

Isn’t there some difference in the holster location between a taser and a gun? Or at least don’t they feel a bit different in terms of weight or grip in your hand?
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 00:31
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE]plenty make their living running stores in poor neighbourhoods/QUOTE]

The Koreans are known for this and also proved quite ready to defend these stores during the Rodney King riots. If the jury acquit the resulting riots will likely surpass those seen in the 1960s and the BLM movement are probably planning for this, social media and messaging apps will allow for greater coordination and media coverage. Expect the National Guard to be called out country wide.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 03:12
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
tbh lom, I don’t really see how you expect that it would be. Unless you think that this is only about GF. Or otherwise, that one conviction could satisfy the resentment behind the issues involved.
The trial is about GF and not the totality of wrongs, perceived or otherwise.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 03:14
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=krismiler;11027278]
plenty make their living running stores in poor neighbourhoods/QUOTE]

The Koreans are known for this and also proved quite ready to defend these stores during the Rodney King riots. If the jury acquit the resulting riots will likely surpass those seen in the 1960s and the BLM movement are probably planning for this, social media and messaging apps will allow for greater coordination and media coverage. Expect the National Guard to be called out country wide.
As evidenced in LA in the aftermath of Rodney King. I have a great deal of respect for the Korean business owners, they’re not of the opinion of let the insurance take care of it.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 04:16
  #50 (permalink)  
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Given the racial undertones I don't believe Chauvin will get a fair trial, guilty or not, I'm reminded somewhat of OJ's case.

Given GF was complaining he couldn't breath at the very onset what might that imply? Has all the signs of a Fentanyl overdose from my reading, the outcome of which is given as, bolding mine,

Breathing difficulties

Rapid onset of difficult, shallow or slow breathing – fentanyl often makes people stop breathing


Confusion

Fainting

Cold and clammy skin and low body temperature

Bluish skin and nails because of low oxygen

Coma and death

https://yourroom.health.nsw.gov.au/a-z-of-drugs/Pages/fentanyl.aspx

With his highly elevated Fentanyl levels I find it difficult to understand how it is possible to determine that the cause of death was by choking rather than an outcome of the drug. Just the view of a layman.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 04:23
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
The trial is about GF and not the totality of wrongs, perceived or otherwise.
The trial is not about GF, that would not be a fair trial, the trial is about the actions that led to his death.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 04:51
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hec7or View Post
The trial is not about GF, that would not be a fair trial, the trial is about the actions that led to his death.
Yes, of course. I thought it would be obvious that it is about his death and not about every other death.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 05:40
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Given the racial undertones I don't believe Chauvin will get a fair trial, guilty or not, I'm reminded somewhat of OJ's case.

Given GF was complaining he couldn't breath at the very onset what might that imply? Has all the signs of a Fentanyl overdose from my reading, the outcome of which is given as, bolding mine,

Breathing difficulties

Rapid onset of difficult, shallow or slow breathing – fentanyl often makes people stop breathing


Confusion

Fainting

Cold and clammy skin and low body temperature

Bluish skin and nails because of low oxygen

Coma and death

https://yourroom.health.nsw.gov.au/a-z-of-drugs/Pages/fentanyl.aspx

With his highly elevated Fentanyl levels I find it difficult to understand how it is possible to determine that the cause of death was by choking rather than an outcome of the drug. Just the view of a layman.
As he was standing in the store, it obviously wasn’t a Fentanyl overdose.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 05:51
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
The trial is about GF and not the totality of wrongs, perceived or otherwise.
You have taken my response out of context. The sentence you quoted above was in response to Lom saying that the BLM movement would not feel that a conviction would be enough. And I did not reference the trial specifically; you introduced that.

In any case, whilst the process itself is just about Chauvin’s actions and whether he was culpable in GF’s death, pretending that the trial is not a sounding board for a broader set of issues is obviously not true.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 09:48
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Has all the signs of a Fentanyl overdose from my reading, the outcome of which is given as, bolding mine,

Breathing difficulties

Rapid onset of difficult, shallow or slow breathing – fentanyl often makes people stop breathing


Confusion

Fainting

Cold and clammy skin and low body temperature

Bluish skin and nails because of low oxygen

Coma and death

https://yourroom.health.nsw.gov.au/a-z-of-drugs/Pages/fentanyl.aspx

With his highly elevated Fentanyl levels I find it difficult to understand how it is possible to determine that the cause of death was by choking rather than an outcome of the drug. Just the view of a layman.
Well how about the view of the world's leading expert on breathing. Dr Martin Tobin, who literally wrote the "bible of breathing". Here's his testimony of why it IS possible to determine that Floyd's death was due to asphyxiation not the drug Fentanyl. Transcript from his testimony, Speaker 2 is the Prosecutor

Dr Martin Tobin
Because one of the things in this case is the question of fentanyl and if fentanyl is having an effect and is causing depression of the respiratory centers, the centers that control breathing, that’s going to result in a decrease in the respiratory rate. And it’s shown that with fentanyl, you expect a 40% reduction in the respiratory rate. So with fentanyl, his respiratory rate should be down at around 10. Instead of that, it’s right in the middle of normal at 22.

Speaker 2:
So you didn’t see a depressed rate of respiration, or breathing rate in Mr. Floyd?

Dr Martin Tobin:
No, it’s normal.

Speaker 2:
And so what does it tell you bottom line with respect to fentanyl as it relates to Mr. Floyd.

Dr. Martin Tobin:
Exactly. In terms of fentanyl, one of the major changes you see in fentanyl is a slowing of the respiratory rate. And again, we would be expecting a 40% reduction in the respiratory rate with fentanyl. The norm of the respiratory rate is 17 breaths per minute, plus or minus five. So that would mean a normal respiratory rate of between 12 and 22. That’s the normal range of respiratory rate. And so if it was with fentanyl, you’d be expecting a respiratory rate of 10. Instead of that, you counted here yourself and you can see when you counted yourself that the respiratory rate is 22. So basically, it tells you there isn’t fentanyl on board, that is affecting his respiratory centers. It’s not having an effect on his respiratory center.

Dr. Martin Tobin:
The important factors are that we know that he made his own last spontaneous effort to breathe at 20:25:16. After that, you can look at the videos and you see, he makes no breath. The last breath he took was that 20:25:16. Then we know after that, he stayed on the street for another three minutes or so. Then he’s placed into the ambulance and we know that in the ambulance, they attempted to put in an airway and i-gel. And you can see that on Officer Lane’s body cam, you can see all of that happening. And then you can see the time at which they actually successfully inserted the airway, and when they gave him the first breath. And that is a gap of nine minutes and 50 seconds from when he last took a breath.

That’s very significant, because we can calculate what is the rate of increase in the carbon dioxide in somebody who doesn’t breathe. If somebody doesn’t take a breath, carbon dioxide increases at a predictable rate. And that rate is up to 4.9 millimeters of mercury per minute that it increases. And so he has not taken a breath for nine minutes and 50 seconds, so you would expect just on that basis, that he’s carbon dioxide level will go up by 49. So you add 49 to the normal values of 35 to 45. And then you add that and you’re going to get a value of between 89 and above. And so it comes out virtually identical to the value that they’ve found in the emergency room of 89.

The significance of all of that is it’s a second reason why you know fentanyl is not causing the depression of his respiration. What you’re seeing is that the increase in his carbon dioxide that is found in the emergency room is solely explained by what you expect to happen in somebody who doesn’t have any ventilation given to them for nine minutes and 50 seconds. It’s completely explained by that.

George Floyd would also have gone into a coma had it been a Fentanyl overdose, he did not.

This is also the conclusion that the medical examiner who performed the autopsy.

The testimony from Dr Tobin is riveting stuff:

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Old 13th Apr 2021, 19:27
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Things going well in Minneapolis anyway.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 21:03
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChanceTyC...332397058?s=20

Things going well in Minneapolis anyway.
Not Minneapolis. The person who posted this on Twitter didn’t even know where or when it was from. What a prick.

Some place it as Milwaukee 4 years ago. Guess we can chalk that one off as another distraction and attempt to mislead.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 21:10
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
You have taken my response out of context. The sentence you quoted above was in response to Lom saying that the BLM movement would not feel that a conviction would be enough. And I did not reference the trial specifically; you introduced that.

In any case, whilst the process itself is just about Chauvin’s actions and whether he was culpable in GF’s death, pretending that the trial is not a sounding board for a broader set of issues is obviously not true.
No, your point was clear, I just disagree with it. The trial has a narrow perspective, society may perceive it in a larger context. The scope of the context directly related to the outcome.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 21:13
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
Not Minneapolis. The person who posted this on Twitter didn’t even know where or when it was from. What a prick.

Some place it as Milwaukee 4 years ago. Guess we can chalk that one off as another distraction and attempt to mislead.
Well if that's true then I agree with you.

What a pain in the proverbial the world is right now. Everyone has an agenda. I think when lying became putting forward "alternate facts", we were doomed.

As an aside, are there any truly non-biased media out there? CNN and FOX are two sides of the same coin, totally biased and now bizarrely devoting half their time to debunking each other without realising they are being hypocritical. The BBC is majority left leaning but won't go in too hard on the Tories because they keep getting threatened by the loss of the licence fee when they do. Al Jazeera are decent but can't report fairly on issues in Qatar for obvious reasons. The Guardian are are one eyed for the left, the majority of the rest of the UK press are Right leaning propaganda. ABC and NBC are as bad as CNN.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 21:19
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
What a pain in the proverbial the world is right now. Everyone has an agenda. I think when lying became putting forward "alternate facts", we were doomed.
👍 Check out the recent Mayday series on Radio 4 in you haven‘t caught it. Really good bit of investigative journalism on just how serious this is and how dangerous some of the actors are.
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