Scottish Politics

[Economics101]

While Scotland as a new EU member might be a net recipient of funds, its population is about 1% of the EU total and its GDP share is probably something similar. That being the case, the net financial effect on the overall EU budget it likely to be small, and maybe worth the political gain.

Having said that I'm not an enthusiast for Scottish independence, and the likely disruptive effect of EU membership on Scotland's economic relations with England would be severe, as the Northern Ireland debacle is now demonstrating

[Bob Viking]

Economical with the truth.

So, with all the above said, why has no journalist ever challenged the SNP when they categorically state that “Scotland voted to remain in the EU”?

The fact that a majority of Scottish residents voted for the UK to remain in the EU is not the same as saying that a majority of Scottish residents want to leave the UK and become an independent EU member.

If the SNP promise an independent Scotland will become an EU member they are playing with fire.

This is the only part of the issue that annoys me. I am English and not resident in Scotland so I have no say in the matter. I think it would be a real shame for Scotland to leave but I accept it is their choice.

I just hate the part where the SNP are happily conflating arguments and referendum results for their own benefit.

Now, for those of you who will yet again use my post as a chance to bash the Brexit arguments can we try to separate the two for now? Or is that not possible?

BV

[alicopter]

Originally Posted by Bob Viking

This is the only part of the issue that annoys me. I am English and not resident in Scotland so I have no say in the matter. I think it would be a real shame for Scotland to leave but I accept it is their choice.

BV

This is the only part of the issue that annoys me. I am French and resident in the UK for 30 years and have had no say in the matter of Brexit. Like the 3 millions of EU citizens (then) paying taxes and contributing to the economy and whose vote would have changed the end result... (and dramatically my life style and finances). Go figure.

[SaulGoodman]

It’s ironic that the arguments are more or less the same as 5 years ago during Brexit: sovereignty vs economic consequences. Only the teams have changed.

Johnson is btw the biggest hypocrite of them all. Using the same arguments against a Scottish referendum as he used in favor for Brexit.

Anyhow it would be shame to see the UK split up if it happened. But it is one of the consequences that has arisen as a result of Brexit.

[Danny G]

I'm not quite sure where you're getting that from but I agree with your basic premise that more detail would be nice but we don't live in a perfect world and the premise that detail doesn't matter has already been set by others - which of course leads us to the second major nub of the problem, and that is 'trust'. In an earlier discussion you questioned whether the Scottish people should put their trust in Salmond or Sturgeon, are you really suggesting they should put their trust in Johnson?

Sturgeon was questioned on one of the Sunday shows a couple of weeks ago and she confirmed that no costing of independence had yet been done, insisting it would be before an independence vote but that misses the fact she is asking for a mandate to call one so surely she should have those numbers to hand to prove that it is viable. Otherwise as in the Brexit referendum you are asking people to vote for something without knowing all the facts. As for putting my trust in Johnson! of course not I put my trust in the system. Dont forget we had Scottish Prime Ministers for nearly half of this century.

Totally agree on the can of worms. However, the SNP have been in power for 14 years and during that time we've had 2 First Ministers with an amicable transition of power (at the time). The UK OTOH has had 5 different Prime Ministers (6 if you count the coalition as 2) giving us a UK government of 3 distinctly different hues (4 if you count Johnsons 'new' Tory party) so the SNP must be doing something right.

The UK was torn apart by Brexit just as the last First Minister resigned because he lost the independence referendum. Nationalism in any form creates division and the SNP have played that card very well. The SNP have had a good run but are now slowly getting found out on their domestic record, they will probably lose seats again this term and I think Sturgeon knows this is probably her last chance to get a majoritybefore the walls begin to crumble

Do you think any of the UK governments have done an 'amazing job'?

How to answer! on some fronts they have done ok, the economy has been pretty stable over the last 10 years but the UK Govt has had a torrid 10 years, the first 5 was a colalition which smoothed out a lot of Tory ideals but then Brexit happened and everything went mad. May was not up to the job although if opposition MPs had voted through her Brexit compramise our relationship with the EU would have been better. As for the last election, the problem was the quality of the opposition. Labour were on a hiding to nothing with Corbyn and that almost pushed through a hard Brexit exactly as I predicted it would a few years ago on the Brexit thread. The Govt was woeful in the opening phase of the pandemic but fantastic on the vaccine roll out. Stealing a line from a famous Scottish football manager "Politics....Bloody Hell"

[Avionker]

“Dont forget we had Scottish Prime Ministers for nearly half of this century.”


A situation unlikely to occur again due to EVEL. Which party is going to elect a leader knowing that they will be unable to vote on all legislation?

Not to mention the difficulty of finding a safe seat in Scotland...

[Danny G]

“Dont forget we had Scottish Prime Ministers for nearly half of this century.”

A situation unlikely to occur again due to EVEL. Which party is going to elect a leader knowing that they will be unable to vote on all legislation?

Not to mention the difficulty of finding a safe seat in Scotland...

Funny that as English based MPs have been unable to vote on large areas of Scottish legislation since 1997 (SVSL) while Scottish MPs could and did vote on laws that didnt affect them. Its call devoloution, also You dont have to have a seat in Scotland to be Scottish Tony Blairs was in the North East at Sedgfield.

[Avionker]

Originally Posted by Danny G

“Dont forget we had Scottish Prime Ministers for nearly half of this century.”




Funny that as English based MPs have been unable to vote on large areas of Scottish legislation since 1997 (SVSL) while Scottish MPs could and did vote on laws that didnt affect them. Its call devoloution, also You dont have to have a seat in Scotland to be Scottish Tony Blairs was in the North East at Sedgfield.

The SNP in Westminster had voluntarily taken a stance of not voting on purely English affairs, long before the introduction of EVEL. It’s called integrity.

I guess you are referring to Labour, Conservative and Liberal MP’s?

Tony Blair was elected in England, therefore not an MP representing a Scottish constituency, therefore not elected by Scots.

[Wyler]

I am an Englishman and I love Scotland; was there for lunch yesterday. I have spent over 4 years living there in 2 stints in Peterhead. I love Malt Whisky and I love Haggis. I love the country, especially around Loch Ness and Fort William. I love the Pipes and Drums. I love the sense of National pride amongst the Scots, something we English could learn from.
I even like the First Minister. Unlike a lot of Politicians, at least you know what she believes in. She is an effective communicator and she has displayed sound leadership during the Covid crisis.
Let the Scots have their referendum. Scotland will still be there, we will still be able to visit and enjoy all that is to be enjoyed in that wonderful Country. So what if they have the Euro, so what if they have a Border.
History is full of redrawn boundaries so one more is not going to stop the world turning., Be nice and let people decide their own future without bad tempered voices drowning out the moderate ones.
To the Cafe owner in Kelso who put Haggis Nacho's on the menu yesterday: you Sir, are a Legend.

[Danny G]

The SNP in Westminster had voluntarily taken a stance of not voting on purely English affairs, long before the introduction of EVEL. It’s called integrity.

I guess you are referring to Labour, Conservative and Liberal MP’s?

The SNP said they would vote on England only affairs because it may effect the funding formula, I think that was one of the drivers for EVEL Labour most certainly did do it on some cases to get legislation through.

Tony Blair was elected in England, therefore not an MP representing a Scottish constituency, therefore not elected by Scots.

That isnt what I said, Tony Blair is Scottish, what constituency he represented is irrelevent.

Be nice and let people decide their own future without bad tempered voices drowning out the moderate ones.

Alas that wont happen, we saw it at the first Scottish referendum and the Brexit vote, Social media makes that far easier and harder to prevent ans some people are easily swayed.

To the Cafe owner in Kelso who put Haggis Nacho's on the menu yesterday: you Sir, are a Legend.

What a fantastic idea!!

[Geordie_Expat]

SNP and integrity in the same sentence. Not something you see everyday.

[Geordie_Expat]

Haggis pakora is fairly common on Indian takeaway menus up here.

[OilCan]

Originally Posted by Bob Viking

I just hate the part where the SNP are happily conflating arguments and referendum results for their own benefit.

Now, for those of you who will yet again use my post as a chance to bash the Brexit arguments can we try to separate the two for now? Or is that not possible?

Unfortunately I don't think that's possible. Had BREXIT not happened the SNPs ramblings would probably have remained not much more than niggling back ground noise, but it did, and as a direct consequence it has given them a heaven sent opportunity to restate their case. Some would say they are simply taking advantage, others would say they are doing it with some justification, it is after all a major change of circumstance.

Either way, it's worth remembering all they're asking for at the moment is the right for the Scottish people to decide, the IndyRef itself would be a seperate battle and the EU rejoining Ref would be another battle after that. It's not their fault that the best recruiting tool for their cause is Boris Johnson!

[Effluent Man]

They are taking advantage but with total justification. The cornerstone of NO was that The Scots would have to leave the EU. So their argument isn't just annulled it's reversed. The EU are now sayingbScotland will be welcomed back, fastracked and possibly even given advantages as were some if the smaller states. What's not to like?

Add to that the fact a few million disgruntled Remoaners like myself will single them out for preferential treatment where purchases are concerned. They need to put a little saltire on everything.

[Danny G]

They are taking advantage but with total justification. The cornerstone of NO was that The Scots would have to leave the EU. So their argument isn't just annulled it's reversed. The EU are now sayingbScotland will be welcomed back, fastracked and possibly even given advantages as were some if the smaller states. What's not to like?

The EU are saying no such thing, there was a letter sent to the commission by a few rich luvvies asking them to but as of yet the EU do not have an offical position except that an Independent Scotland would have to apply in the usual way and meet all the conditions of membership which will take years as Scotland do not have their own currency and the defecit is to high to qualify

Add to that the fact a few million disgruntled Remoaners like myself will single them out for preferential treatment where purchases are concerned. They need to put a little saltire on everything.

Speak for yourself, . I thought you would know by now the absolute chaos that happens when nationalists take over, we had it here in 2016, that is still ongoing. Imagine the issues around hard borders and the like should Scotland join the EU.

[Effluent Man]

I'm sure that my EU maroon passport, valid until 2029 will suffice when I take my holidays north of the border. True, we have had it and it is still ongoing. But who started it?

[OilCan]

Originally Posted by Danny G

Sturgeon was questioned on one of the Sunday shows a couple of weeks ago and she confirmed that no costing of independence had yet been done, insisting it would be before an independence vote but that misses the fact she is asking for a mandate to call one so surely she should have those numbers to hand to prove that it is viable

With the pandemic still in full flow and the fall out of BREXIT yet to be established any figures quoted by anybody at this stage could only be pure conjecture and effectivley meaningless. I'm sure you would be at the front of the que to rightly vilify her for plucking figures out of the air had she done so.

If you can tell me where the economy will be in twelve months time, I'll tell you next weeks lottery numbers.

As for putting my trust in Johnson! of course not I put my trust in the system.

And there you've hit upon a third nub of the problem. Many people (not just Scots) do not have trust in 'the system'. A system that returns an 80 seat majority with just 43% of the vote when compared to the SNP minority government with 49% of the vote. Add to that the anachronism of an unelected House of Lords and you have out dated 19th century old boys club more akin to the days of empire than a modern democracy - and very unlikely to reform itself.

The SNP have had a good run but are now slowly getting found out on their domestic record, they will probably lose seats again this term...

Of course they have issues, show me a government that doesn't, but it's the voters in Scotland that will judge them on their record not some artistic or selective news editor with a personal agenda. I don't think the UK governments domestic record (any of them) is much to shout about and in large part is why BREXIT happened in the fist place.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the Scottish parliamenary voting system but you are right, they lost seats last time - by becoming more popular!! . As daft as it sounds they increased their share of the popular vote and gained 6 more constituencies but as a result were awarded 12 less 'list' seats. Either way, next weeks results will be facinating.

The Govt was woeful in the opening phase of the pandemic but fantastic on the vaccine roll out. Stealing a line from a famous Scottish football manager "Politics....Bloody Hell"

Actually, for a short period in the begining I thought Johnson had started to redeem himself but then the Cummings eye test fiansco happend and it's been down hill since them. The jury is still out for me with regard to the vaccine roll out, I think probably the best thing they did was keep out of the way and let the NHS and military sort it out.

[Effluent Man]

I think that some of the anti Scot/SNP views aired on this thread are the very reason why the Scots are determined to plough their own furrow. It epitomises the condescending attitude to their country that comes out of Westminster.

[OilCan]

Originally Posted by Danny G

“Dont forget we had Scottish Prime Ministers for nearly half of this century.”




Funny that as English based MPs have been unable to vote on large areas of Scottish legislation since 1997 (SVSL) while Scottish MPs could and did vote on laws that didnt affect them. Its call devoloution, also You dont have to have a seat in Scotland to be Scottish Tony Blairs was in the North East at Sedgfield.

I wasn't quite sure where you were going with this 'Scottish Prime Minister' thing, but FWIW, they were both leaders of a UK wide political party voted for my its members. As such, their nationality is irrelevant. There is a considerable number of 'Scottish' individuals across all the parties who are currently sitting in English seats and they are rightly entitled to vote on all things English as representatives of their constituents. Again, their nationality is irrelevant.

English constituency MPs have infact voted on Scottish affairs for nigh on 300 years, right up to the formation of the Scottish Parliament in 1999. It's true, there have been abuses, most of which predate its formation and largely by the Labour party. The Tories haven't had significant numbers in Scotland for a very long time. Nevertheless, this 'Lothian Question' remains an ongoing issue but only the government in Westminster has the power to fix it.

The SNP MPs will only take part if the vote will affect funding because that will have an effect in the monies going to Scotland (Barnett Consequentials). If it doesn't affect funding, they'll abstain.

[Danny G]

With the pandemic still in full flow and the fall out of BREXIT yet to be established any figures quoted by anybody at this stage could only be pure conjecture and effectivley meaningless. I'm sure you would be at the front of the que to rightly vilify her for plucking figures out of the air had she done so.
If you can tell me where the economy will be in twelve months time, I'll tell you next weeks lottery numbers.

Not at all, if you are going to state your main aim is to win an independence mandate then its up to you to know how you are going to fund it or else as with Brexit you are asking people to make a blind guess.

And there you've hit upon a third nub of the problem. Many people (not just Scots) do not have trust in 'the system'. A system that returns an 80 seat majority with just 43% of the vote when compared to the SNP minority government with 49% of the vote. Add to that the anachronism of an unelected House of Lords and you have out dated 19th century old boys club more akin to the days of empire than a modern democracy - and very unlikely to reform itself.

Why not, there was a vote back in 2011 (I think) about PR and STV and the voters rejected it. The system we have works most of the time but (and it is a big but) you need a credible opposition to make it work. In 2010 and 2017 it did work but 2019`s mistake led to this majority.

Of course they have issues, show me a government that doesn't, but it's the voters in Scotland that will judge them on their record not some artistic or selective news editor with a personal agenda. I don't think the UK governments domestic record (any of them) is much to shout about and in large part is why BREXIT happened in the fist place.

Of course its for the Scots to judge them and they will just like the tories were judged in 2019. The UK Govts domestic records (all of them as you say) are also poor but they are currently better than Scotlands on things like Education

I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the Scottish parliamenary voting system but you are right, they lost seats last time - by becoming more popular!! . As daft as it sounds they increased their share of the popular vote and gained 6 more constituencies but as a result were awarded 12 less 'list' seats. Either way, next weeks results will be facinating.

Yes that can happen just like in the wider UK where some constituncies are larger than others and so skew the total vote. What will be interesting is to see how Scotland carves up. Will for example the Sheland islands if they dont vote SNP want a referendum to leave an Independent Scotland

Actually, for a short period in the begining I thought Johnson had started to redeem himself but then the Cummings eye test fiansco happend and it's been down hill since them. The jury is still out for me with regard to the vaccine roll out, I think probably the best thing they did was keep out of the way and let the NHS and military sort it out.

you have to give them credit for the Vaccine procurement and roll out, they were ahead of the game the whole way but in the early stages we lacked resolve and Cummings is just a clown, he does howeve have a way of winning elections/referendums.