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The crazy world of Porsche!

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The crazy world of Porsche!

Old 21st Feb 2021, 12:43
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The crazy world of Porsche!

I have been helping a friend look for a low mileage Porsche Cayman or Cayman S. He is looking for a car up to three years old, with low mileage and a few of the optional extras he wants.

Most used Caymans are in the hands of Porsche main dealers. We have a found a few low mileage examples but at, to my mind, crazy prices. Two examples are a May 2018 Cayman and a July 2018 Cayman S with various optional extras which the dealer has a sticker price of 80% and 75% of the car's new value! When we priced both cars as new cars we found that for an extra £10,000 each could be bought as a new model.

However, when we spoke to a Porsche centre, surprise, surprise, delivery for a new Cayman would be in October!

We found one dealership with a year old demonstrator which had covered 6,000 miles and they were asking £600 less than the price of a brand new identical model.

Two questions in my mind. Are they actually achieving these prices? And are people that keen on buying one that they are prepared to pay excessively for the privilege.

It is also apparent that Porsche are past masters at the optional extras game. It is a prestige luxury brand but it is difficult to configure a decent specification for under an extra £10,000. E.g. not keen on white, black, red or yellow? Simple, an extra £1,658 for another colour. How about 20" 911 Turbo design wheels? Only another £2,912!

For anybody who has never driven a Porsche I can tell you they are terrific cars but at what price?
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 12:48
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A clue can be had from the margin on new cars. Most car makes in the $50k+ price range average around $3k to $6k per car in terms of margin. The Porsche margin averages $17.k per car . Not even Tesla comes close to that sort of figure (last time I looked Tesla were making around $4k per car, across their whole range).
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 14:41
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Might it also be linked to the fact that post-Brexit, the price of imports from the EU have risen, and new cars will be more expensive, and parts and service will go up as well ( (perhaps 25%) ? Secondhand cars will be therefore seen as 'old new stock' and be sought after. As to whether Porsche and their UK dealers might achieve those prices is an unknown. I wish that the EU and the UK would see sense and arrange a mutually beneficial trading agreement that benefits both sides, rather than the somewhat ruinous present petulance.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 14:46
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Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
Might it also be linked to the fact that post-Brexit, the price of imports from the EU have risen, and new cars will be more expensive, and parts and service will go up as well ( (perhaps 25%) ? Secondhand cars will be therefore seen as 'old new stock' and be sought after. As to whether Porsche and their UK dealers might achieve those prices is an unknown. I wish that the EU and the UK would see sense and arrange a mutually beneficial trading agreement that benefits both sides, rather than the somewhat ruinous present petulance.

The same thing has happened with Teslas, so nothing at all to do with Brexit. At the time I collected mine there were identical second hand cars listed in Autotrader for a lot more than the new price. I could have sold it the day after collecting it and pocketed a few thousand. It seems that some people are prepared to pay more just to get a car as quickly as possibly, rather than wait for the delivery of a new one.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 15:01
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Am I right in pointing out you’re chuffed over a Porsche being expensive?
Thats kinda like complaining that water is wet.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 16:40
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Am I right in pointing out you’re chuffed over a Porsche being expensive?
Not sure who your comment was aimed at but you are misunderstanding anyway.

I was pointing out that a three year depreciation of 20 -25% is not realistic when historically the depreciation of most premium brands is usually around 50% after three years. I was also pointing out what a racket it is that a company build a nice car but then charge a fortune to add all the things which rightly should be included in the price.

It would be interesting to see what a Porsche dealer would offer a seller for a three year old Cayman.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 17:26
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M Mouse
Porsche are masters at the supply demand curve in our experience. We have had (or rather my wife has had them) since 2003 through various models. The first one a Boxster S 2003 is still with us with 25k on the clock, other 911 have come and gone and they do charge for the extras as you say. However I would point out that back in the 80,s BMW charged a hefty whack for a radio cassette so it is not uncommon. Also supply from Porsche is fine tuned so that the market is never swamped. As for values the Boxster cost circa £43k with some extras Cinnamon leather, Turbo wheels, central transmission painted. As an S you got A/C and CD player throne in ! It was serviced last June and the dealership said it was worth circa £14 -15. It will not be sold as Mrs Mac loves it on high days and holidays hence mileage. As the the cars have grown fatter I would also say in comparison with the newer ones we have had, this older one feels more nimble and to a degree better made.

Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 18:23
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On the Cayman, bi-exon is an option, meaning candle lights are standard. Jeezzz, even my Skoda has LED driving lights as standard, they even adjust to oncoming traffic.
When I bought my first Skoda Superb I also looked at the German three: Audi, BMW and MB.
All things equal, engine power, driveline, size, equipment, the Skoda was 70.000 GBP. The German three were all around 110 to120 thousand.
I'm on my third Superb.
Per

​​​​​​
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 18:59
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There's a 70 grand Skoda?!
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 19:32
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
There's a 70 grand Skoda?!
There's a Norway.
Pet
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 08:17
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Caymans and Carreras are the penultimate Porsches and remain a most desirable car, even the old ones. The rest of the Porsche lineup is what I call Porsche detritus created to keep company profits in the black to support the continued development of the two flagship vehicles mentioned earlier, even the fugly but best selling Cayenne is mostly a VW Touareg.

I've never known a time when (looked after) used Caymans and Carreras where ever cheap, as for the other Porsche models...
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 09:24
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Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
I was pointing out that a three year depreciation of 20 -25% is not realistic when historically the depreciation of most premium brands is usually around 50% after three years. I was also pointing out what a racket it is that a company build a nice car but then charge a fortune to add all the things which rightly should be included in the price.

It would be interesting to see what a Porsche dealer would offer a seller for a three year old Cayman.
MM

In my view you are mistaken in applying 50% as if it were a law of nature (surp[rising given your interest in cars ) affecting all cars similarly

I recall reading numerous articles over the years about depreciation in cars in Germany in the auto motor und sport magazine and Porsche is always the best with 20%-25% over three years

Back in June 2019, I helped the sister of a recently deceased friend sell his Cayman S ( the bigger-engined model ) here in France. It was a 2011 model bought from a Porsche dealer in Germany for E 45K in 2013, very well-equipped, probably everything excepting ceramic discs.

The sister lives in the USA so she had to try and settle everything in about 20 days, including clearing the house. I had done preliminary research and had figures that suggested that in Rhone/Alpes region, Porsche dealers were selling this model around E 63 K, private sales E 40-45K. Circumstances were difficult for a private sale - small village in the Alps, long way from centres of population, legal difficulties transferring the car whilst probate not 100% clear ( to non-lawyers anyway ) and vendor in the USA.

We went to Porsche Annecy and after some haggling, she was offered E 25K guaranteed payment in two days with the dealer taking care of all paperwork (no small thing in the circumstances ). In the discussions he said he had reduced his offer by E 6000 because the next service was due ( 2500 ), the tyres were six years old ( still pretty good condition ) and would be renewed (2500) and the paint was scuffed in one area and they would repaint ( 1000 ) That was pretty scandalous to me; because there were two or three barely visible ,marks caused by a cleaning cloth and a tiny piece of abrasive dust. Maybe that would have been important to a Porsche buyer as they do seem special, as I found out when selling his 1965 911 S.later on.

Anyway she took the 25K. I obviously don't know to what extent the salesman ( they did buying and selling there ) used his understanding of the situation to push down the price, but I reckon that car would have been offered between 65 and 70 K. The money did arrive as quickly as promised.

Tangentially connected, during my working life I was trying to sell a product as an o.e. branded accessory to Porsche. I had been to see the buyer several times and was really trying hard to get in the door and felt the chances were good as the other product was very expensive and my company had a very good reputation: my competitor was a company called CiPo ( amusingly pronounced "Cheapo "). On my fourth visit the buyer took pity on me , leaned across the table and said " Mr TF, I need to tell you, this contract is very unlikely to go to your company. The "Po" in CiPo stands for Porsche ". One of the nephews/grandsons was a partner .

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 22nd Feb 2021 at 10:15.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 09:35
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
M Mouse
However I would point out that back in the 80,s BMW charged a hefty whack for a radio cassette so it is not uncommon.

Cheers
Mr Mac
Mr Mac. AFAIR no German manufacturers offered radios in their German models. I recall talking to an engineer at one of my customers (VW) and being told that in the next model Year ( 87 ? ) they would be offering all models "Ready for Radio" i.e. pre-wired for the radio of your choice. In all press reports of the time, whenever there was a moan about this , the standard reply always was " The German motorist is very discerning, therefore we leave the final choice to him/her".

" .....and CD player throne in ! " Gosh sir ! Really !

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 22nd Feb 2021 at 10:16.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 09:47
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
. The Porsche margin averages $17.k per car . Not even Tesla comes close to that sort of figure (last time I looked Tesla were making around $4k per car, across their whole range).
VP

t I recall reading an article a year or so ago - so no longer up to date - which said that Tesla still made a manufacturing loss on every car, and all their "profits" derived from the sale of carbon credits to manufacturers of ICE cars. The astonishing figure fof $ 500 million from Fiat/Chrysler sticks in my mind. I doubt Tesla can have managed such an astonishing turn-around in production costs in as little as a year to be making big profits on production.

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 22nd Feb 2021 at 10:26.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 11:45
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Have you looked at auctions. A good example is here https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/a...b-accd00a8d263.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 12:27
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Buying a new or nearly new car from a Porsche dealer will provide a fully serviced machine, on which anything such as part worn tyres or knackered brake discs will have been renewed. However, it needs a large wallet or signing up to a lease-buy or loan agreement. Then you will have to pay for the warranty and the requirement to have the car serviced by the dealer at huge prices.

Also you have the depreciation.

If you know what you are doing, a good second hand car avoids all the above. SMS bearing and condition of the exhaust systems are two things to check on the flat 6's.

Mrs Uplinker has had 2 Boxsters, and they have both been fine for the price. They both cost around £10k and needed things like new brake discs - easy to do yourself if you have basic engineering ability. We bought autos both times; for ease of driving in traffic jams and because an auto box adds another layer of protection to the engine - it won't miss a gear or chose the wrong gear ! Also, boy racers don't tend to buy autos. In our experience you can find (auto) Boxsters that were second cars that were not used much. So they might have been a bit neglected but essentially OK.

Basic servicing, such as engine oil and filter change, is possible to do yourself, but getting access to, and underneath the flat 6's, can be very involved and quite taxing to your ingenuity and patience - jacking is not easy. You can't just open the "bonnet" and have everything presented in front of you. A car lift (which we don't yet have) would be very useful. For jobs you cannot do yourself, there are independent Porsche garages around, who are expensive but cheaper than main dealers.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 12:37
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One of the downfalls of some premium marques has been to allow too much product to emerge in the market place. Aston Martin have done this in the past. So bright dealers buy them up, and slowly release them. The margin goes to the dealer, not the manufacturer. Porsche try very hard to prevent this.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 12:49
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Where is the point in getting a "sports" car like a Porsche first and then select to not shift manually?
Admittedly just a theoretical consideration for me.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 13:53
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I don’t trust main dealers. Last time I viewed a car at one of the UK’s most well known BMW dealers it was a Z4 coupe. The price was steep, to say the least, well over book price.

I made an appointment to view the car. They kept me waiting twenty minutes beyond the booked time. The young lad salesman was full of how good the car was. I began to look the vehicle over. It had been washed but not recently polished. I immediately saw that the rear tyres had only about 2.5 to 3mm of tread. I then began to look more closely. The front brake discs had a deep wear lip and needed replacing. I opened the bonnet and saw that the scuttle and its vents were full of leaves, small twigs and other debris; one of my pet hates. The engine oil indicated that it hadn’t recently been changed.

I asked if the tyres and brakes were going to be changed before sale. The answer was that the car had already been through their workshop and had a full “green” service sheet and fulfilled all their safety checks. I asked how much they would charge for a pair of tyres and a set of new brakes in six months time or so when the tyres and possibly the discs were worn to the legal limit. The answer was over £1000. I pointed out that they were selling the car for at least that much beyond what it was worth, according to the price guides I had access to and for that money it would have be immaculate condition.

They were not prepared to negotiate downwards to a reasonable price or to replace the worn safety items so eventually I told the salesman I was no longer prepared to waste any more of my time or his, got up and left. I haven’t been back!
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 15:38
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When I used to get a Co car, I thought I would try an Audi, rather than my usual Merc/BMW.
Went to an Audi dealer 3 times, rang them 4 times.
The "Account Manager" who was supposed to get back to me never did.

Never looked at an Audi again.
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