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All land rovers to be electric powered by the end of the decade

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All land rovers to be electric powered by the end of the decade

Old 17th Feb 2021, 01:02
  #41 (permalink)  
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I wish they’d stop saying they are green, unless it’s using wind, solar or hydro, meaning it’s either nuclear, or somewhere along the line someone’s burning something to produce this “clean” electricity. And then you have the lubricants and oil based paints, and the plastics etc in the vehicle.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 07:45
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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let’s get a bite to eat whilst the Tesla charges. 45 mins later.
Would make for an expensive shopping trip - Tesla charges for over idling past your charge time.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 07:58
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bosi72 View Post
Probably 10-20 years ago.
However not anymore. I have been to Japan (Tokyo, Osaka) have seen only 1 (one) Land Cruiser and about 10 Mercedes G wagons. 0 Hiluxes, 0 Navaras, 0 Tritons..
All those are made somewhere in Asia.
However as anything/anywhere else in today's world run by accountants, the quality has gone down. Ask any owner of a new 4wd vehicle how many trips to the service he/she had.
Land Rover products do not compare to Toyota, they have one of the worst reliability records of all cars, Toyota vehicles may not be exciting or sporty but are reliable, over the years I have had 5 Toyotaís none have had any problems other than tyres brakes etc. In 2000 I bought a LR Defender that was unreliable, replaced it with a Hilux, they just donít break down, the current one is 12 yrs old, just one clutch at 100k miles nothing else.
The difference is the build quality, everything from electronic components to steel and plastic quality.

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Old 17th Feb 2021, 08:04
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ETOPS View Post
Would make for an expensive shopping trip - Tesla charges for over idling past your charge time.
Apparently 1USD (in US) or 1€ (IN EUR area) or £1 (UK) per minute, if all the charging spots are reserved. Half, if there are other available chargers on location.

On topic: The U.S. Army could start purchasing electric versions of the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, the Pentagon’s new replacement for the Humvee. The Army believes that the gradual shift from liquid fuel powered engines to electric engines could force it to electrify its wheeled vehicles. The service cites both logistical but also economic reasons why a JLTV-EV might be in its future.
An electric JLTV would reduce the need for diesel fuel at remote outposts, with power provided by solar or nuclear energy.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ric-jltv-army/
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 08:22
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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There is no doubt that EVs are not going to suit everyone, in isolated areas and developing countries, gasoline vehicles are going to be the norm for many years to come. Currently EVs are not practical for long distances, over 400 miles or so, recharging once is acceptable to most but not more. However most of us don’t drive that far regularly, being able to charge at home on off peak power is a big plus and lack of pollution in urban areas is also a big advantage.
BEV IS the technology of the day, there are going to be alternatives for those that cannot use them for whatever reason, be thankful that it’s not hydrogen being launched, there are many options for charging EVs, try pouring liquid hydrogen to top up your fuel cell car
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 08:30
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Beamr View Post
Apparently 1USD (in US) or 1Ä (IN EUR area) or £1 (UK) per minute, if all the charging spots are reserved. Half, if there are other available chargers on location.

On topic: The U.S. Army could start purchasing electric versions of the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, the Pentagonís new replacement for the Humvee. The Army believes that the gradual shift from liquid fuel powered engines to electric engines could force it to electrify its wheeled vehicles. The service cites both logistical but also economic reasons why a JLTV-EV might be in its future.
An electric JLTV would reduce the need for diesel fuel at remote outposts, with power provided by solar or nuclear energy.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ric-jltv-army/
The military will use whatever suits itís needs, around a base in the US an EV may well suit, in a war zone with no infrastructure itís going to be Diesel or Jet A1 because they are portable, we are not going to see an EV Abrams MBT although no doubt they could.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 08:42
  #47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RVF750 View Post
We are on an Island too. 12x24m so a bit bigger, but our 24Kwh Leaf is all we need.
I thought you meant metres for a second - that's not an island it's a sandbar! I presume I'm thinking of the Wight place...
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 09:17
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Taking Afghanistan as an example, it does seem that renewable technology has been reaping big rewards for the opium growers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53450688

If you have ever doubted whether solar power can be a transformative technology, read on.

This is a story about how it has proved its worth in the toughest environment possible.

The market I'm talking about is perhaps the purest example of capitalism on the planet.

There are no subsidies here. Nobody is thinking about climate change - or any other ethical consideration, for that matter.

This is about small-scale entrepreneurs trying to make a profit.

It is the story of how Afghan opium growers have switched to solar power, and significantly increased the world supply of heroin.
That story covers the way that farmers in arid areas of Afghanistan have been installing solar panels and water pumps to massively increase their poppy yield.

Looking at somewhere like the old Camp Bastion, it would have been pretty easy to erect solar panel arrays and install some containerised megapacks, like these (this is a 15 MWh installation a few miles away from us, in Dorset):




No need to transport as much fuel in, using vulnerable convoys that needed protection, they could get away with only needing aviation fuel if all the vehicles were electric. Average patrol distances were probably well within the range of an EV power train, and the much reduced noise, and increased reliability, could be a real advantage.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 09:30
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010 View Post
The military will use whatever suits itís needs, around a base in the US an EV may well suit, in a war zone with no infrastructure itís going to be Diesel or Jet A1 because they are portable, we are not going to see an EV Abrams MBT although no doubt they could.
I hear you, and agree at least with todays technology. And in the future hybrid might be the actual choice, especially on the heavies. But it doesn't mean that no one is looking into it. I would say that the US project for mobile nuclear power plant is one of the projects heading that way. The UK has awarded 3,2M£ for research on electricity in armored vehicles, currently (as of March) tested on Foxhound and Jackal 2. And they are researching on heavies as well.
source: https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/02...ator-6-update/
Direct quote regarding MBT's and supports hybrid model: "Dstl noted that the problem of long ranges and recharging batteries in the field drove the decision to currently focus on hybrid electric drive, as it was estimated that an all-electric main battle tank would require 50 tons of batteries to reach a range of 200 kilometers, while implementing a electric crossdrive transmission would provide immediate efficiency and reliability benefits."

And some people with lots of brass on the shoulder have given statements towards EV's and hybrids: "Speaking in London at the defence and equipment event, DSEI, Chief of the General Staff General Sir Mark Carleton-Smith said the Army's current fleet of vehicles and tanks could be the last to run on fossil fuels. "
source: https://www.forces.net/news/army/arm...uture-recruits
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 09:41
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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It only ads a new layer of logistics. Just what is not needed in a war zone.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 09:53
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Less Hair View Post
It only ads a new layer of logistics. Just what is not needed in a war zone.

Not sure about this. EVs need a great deal less maintenance, and don't need fuel to be shipped in, if there are ways to generate power on site, as there would have been in somewhere like Afghanistan. Looked at as a whole, with the work going on into small nuclear power plants and the big advances in battery storage technology, and added to the shift away from people doing tasks like recce and some types of attack and replacing them with land, sea and airborne UAVs, and EVs start to make sense for many, but clearly not all, scenarios. Look at the logistics effort needed to run and maintain the big generators in a FOB at the moment, and compare that to a maintenance-free solution like ruggedised solar or wind generation with containerised battery storage.

I don't doubt that we'll be retaining diesel military vehicles for a very long time yet, given that military vehicles tend to have a service life measured in decades, but, at the current rate of technology development it wouldn't surprise me to find that we have the capability to replace pretty much everything, perhaps bar an MBT, within the next decade. Arguably MBTs are past their sell by date, anyway, as warfare is changing rapidly, and I strongly suspect their days are numbered.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 10:02
  #52 (permalink)  
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Looking at somewhere like the old Camp Bastion, it would have been pretty easy to erect solar panel arrays and install some containerised megapacks
Fuel bladders can be made self-sealing, covered with earth and put inside a bund, and of course camouflaged. I’m thinking of the supply depot set up in the Iraq desert by SF prior to The attack during GW1.

A large solar array would make a beautiful target forany kind of air burst, including mortars - and would be somewhat difficult to hide....

Last edited by ORAC; 17th Feb 2021 at 12:15.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 10:08
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Seems quite ridiculous fighting a war on green friendly terms. Perhaps we should go back to using tall ships.

This was the last major naval battle in history to be fought entirely with sailing ships, quite a spectacular event, and just 15km away from my holiday house.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Navarino

Even though Codrington kicked @ss Whitehall was not amused.

If Land Rover (who remembers when that word auto changed to Trabant on PPRuNe) wants to be different perhaps they should replace the wheels with feet and call it a Land Wader.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 10:52
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Fuel bladders can be made self-sealing, covered with earth and put inside a bund, and of course camouflages. Iím thinking if the supply depot set up in the Iraq desert by SF prior to The attack during GW1.

A large solar array would make a beautiful target forany kind of air burst, including mortars - and would be somewhat difficult to hide....
No reason not to put megapacks in bunds, and are solar arrays REALLY more vulnerable than acres of tents with personnel in?

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Old 17th Feb 2021, 11:15
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
Seems quite ridiculous fighting a war on green friendly terms. Perhaps we should go back to using tall ships.

This was the last major naval battle in history to be fought entirely with sailing ships, quite a spectacular event, and just 15km away from my holiday house.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Navarino

Even though Codrington kicked @ss Whitehall was not amused.

If Land Rover (who remembers when that word auto changed to Trabant on PPRuNe) wants to be different perhaps they should replace the wheels with feet and call it a Land Wader.
It's not really much to do with "green friendly terms", it's mostly about advances in technology that make electric propulsion better than diesel propulsion for some tasks. The advantages for some roles in reduced noise and smoke make an electrical solution tactically better, if it can still meet the requirements OK.

It used to be that "portable" radio comms involved big battery packs and portable generators to keep the (very) short life NiCd battery packs charged. Anyone remember Clansman, from just a decade or so ago?:




That's now changed to compact, lightweight, units with massively improved battery life that means rather than relying on one person carrying a fairly hefty radio pack, that needed recharging frequently, every person can have comms, like this:





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Old 17th Feb 2021, 11:21
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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The car conversion company known on telly as "Vintage Voltage" converted a Defender to electric.

Range aside, the way that machine shot up hills was impressive - no need to dick about with gear changes and a narrow power band IC engine halfway up a steep slope. Diesel engines are a bit better but the electric motor has peak torque at virtually all revs, making it well suited for hard terrain work. That thing scooted up the slopes looking like a remote controlled toy car, it was so nimble and so torquey.

There is a long list of components required by an IC vehicle that an electric vehicle does not need. So the electric vehicle is a lot more reliable and simpler, and needs probably only 10% of the maintenance of a conventional vehicle. Just the range and recharge to develop further, which I am sure they will.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 11:37
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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You just reminded me, the mil has been known to use aluminium-air batteries in some applications which still have the highest densities of all batteries but are not rechargeable. Only problem is once they start producing power there's no effective way to stop it so they must be used until depletion. Apparently an EV on Al-air batteries has 8x more range than one using Li batteries, which is impressive. As a disposable fuel source its use is limited in commercial use.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 11:39
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The efficient technology currently uses diesel electric drivetrains where live electric power can’t be used, the only reason to add hybrid technology is to reduce pollution and that definitely doesn’t apply on the battlefield nor do any economy gains. For aviation either ethanol or synthetic high density liquid fuels will have to be used until some alternative technology is developed to a practical level.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 12:09
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
The car conversion company known on telly as "Vintage Voltage" converted a Defender to electric.

Range aside, the way that machine shot up hills was impressive - no need to dick about with gear changes and a narrow power band IC engine halfway up a steep slope. Diesel engines are a bit better but the electric motor has peak torque at virtually all revs, making it well suited for hard terrain work. That thing scooted up the slopes looking like a remote controlled toy car, it was so nimble and so torquey.

There is a long list of components required by an IC vehicle that an electric vehicle does not need. So the electric vehicle is a lot more reliable and simpler, and needs probably only 10% of the maintenance of a conventional vehicle. Just the range and recharge to develop further, which I am sure they will.

The majority of people that buy a Tesla don't do so to save the planet. It seems that the main group of people buying them at the moment are those that want a car that pretty much out-performs any other production car on the road. Reading around some of the Tesla social media sites it seems clear that many Tesla owners have switched from cars like the Audi S4 or BMW M3, some, I get the feeling, because they were regularly getting well and truly trounced at the traffic light grand prix by Teslas. Electric drive offers some pretty dramatic performance opportunities, from near-constant torque from a standstill to operational speed through easy controllability, to being pretty much unaffected by weather. Chuck in the much reduced maintenance requirement and the ease with which an electric drivetrain can be totally sealed, and there are a fair few advantages for many military applications.

Before I retired electrically powered unmanned recce vehicles, for use on land, in and under the sea and in the air were already in use, and it was an area that seemed to be growing quickly. I saw a demo of a small, backpack carried, autonomous military drone that was simply staggering in what it offered. The chap just pulled it out of a small backpack, unfolded it, donned a pair of video goggles and launched the thing, given anyone on the ground an "eye in the sky" complete with a video and IR capability, that could be deployed in a couple of minutes. The only thing that made that viable was electric propulsion technology.
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Old 17th Feb 2021, 13:15
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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The energy per weight and volume you can store in Diesel fuel is so much better compared to batteries, including upcoming improved ones, that I think alone from this perspective it makes no sense to move military front line vehicles to electrical power. You'd have to carry your own power stations with you. Still there is nice research funding available this season for everything battery and "E".
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