Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Is Pprune a menís club?

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Is Pprune a menís club?

Old 6th Jan 2021, 15:26
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lestah
Posts: 168
2.8 Capri.

Never had a Capri, but my mate did back when we were young. Loved going out in it.



Local Variation is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 16:49
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Norwich
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Therein lies part of the problem. The majority of military aircraft fitted with ejection seats, with designs dating back to before around 1980 or so, weren't generally certified as safe for smaller women to fly in. I'm not sure when the changes came in to expand the envelope of the seats to allow for smaller, lighter, people, probably around the time of the Mk9 or Mk10 seat at a guess, as I'm pretty sure the Mk10 seat in the Hawk was the first aircraft to have a seat where a lower weight limit was certified (around 70kg IIRC) and the ergonomics of the seat were made more acceptable for people with a smaller frame. Most of the faster stuff I flew in still had seats in the Mk2 to Mk9 range, and I'm pretty sure that even the early Mk9 wasn't certified for people with a weight below about 75kg (at the time I was around 76kg), which ruled out some women (I have a suspicion this was lowered to 60-something kg for the last version of the Mk9, in line with the changes made to the Mk10).
You are correct VP. The first female to eject from an RAF aircraft was Officer Cadet Kate Saunders (aged 22) from a Harrier T4 XZ147 of No 1 Squadron, Wittering in September 1991. She was on a jolly backseat trip with one of the Sqn Flt Cdrs. I remember hearing about the crash that day as I was working at No 1 Sqn with RSS. Birdstrike at 250 ft had taken out the flying helmet, vision and mask of Ashley Stevenson and he had no chance to call "Eject!" to Saunders bar doing so. She realised the grave situation and followed his lead, but was badly injuried by ejection injuries, landing injuries and landing in the fireball of the crash. Stevenson of course dragged her out of the fire and saved her life. In the investigation that followed, I am sure she was found to be be under the weight limit of the Mk9A seat. This actually had reprecussions for CAT B pax flying carried out across the Air Force. It was common for under weight people to get backseaters beforehand. It was banned after the BOI report came out. I know one Cpl Hygenist at Colt that had won a backseat trip in a charity prize draw that fell foul of the observence of the regs. This also happened to us groundcrew of Colt that used to get backseaters in the T Bird air tests. That was also stopped.
Non Linear Gear is online now  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 17:04
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 68
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by Non Linear Gear View Post
You are correct VP. The first female to eject from an RAF aircraft was Officer Cadet Kate Saunders (aged 22) from a Harrier T4 XZ147 of No 1 Squadron, Wittering in September 1991. She was on a jolly backseat trip with one of the Sqn Flt Cdrs. I remember hearing about the crash that day as I was working at No 1 Sqn with RSS. Birdstrike at 250 ft had taken out the flying helmet, vision and mask of Ashley Stevenson and he had no chance to call "Eject!" to Saunders bar doing so. She realised the grave situation and followed his lead, but was badly injuried by ejection injuries, landing injuries and landing in the fireball of the crash. Stevenson of course dragged her out of the fire and saved her life. In the investigation that followed, I am sure she was found to be be under the weight limit of the Mk9A seat. This actually had reprecussions for CAT B pax flying carried out across the Air Force. It was common for under weight people to get backseaters beforehand. It was banned after the BOI report came out. I know one Cpl Hygenist at Colt that had won a backseat trip in a charity prize draw that fell foul of the observence of the regs. This also happened to us groundcrew of Colt that used to get backseaters in the T Bird air tests. That was also stopped.
I remember being told by the tech instructor at Boscombe (John Eaton?) that at 76kg I was probably going to suffer some ejection injuries from being a bit on the light side. He'd ejected from a Sea Vixen (I think), way outside the seat limit (IIRC rolling through 90 degrees) and lived to tell the tale, so was someone who's opinion I trusted.
VP959 is online now  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 17:16
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Norwich
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I remember being told by the tech instructor at Boscombe (John Eaton?) that at 76kg I was probably going to suffer some ejection injuries from being a bit on the light side. He'd ejected from a Sea Vixen (I think), way outside the seat limit (IIRC rolling through 90 degrees) and lived to tell the tale, so was someone who's opinion I trusted.
I would suspect it is more to do with the Cof G charecteristics, certainly with the rocket seats. I am not an armourer nor a seat designer that knows the ergonomics. The Mk 1 to 7 had the brutal 80 ft per second gun. The Mk 9 and later had the 65 ft guns as the rocket pack more than made up by longer and smoother acceleration.
Non Linear Gear is online now  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 17:35
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 68
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by Non Linear Gear View Post
I would suspect it is more to do with the Cof G charecteristics, certainly with the rocket seats. I am not an armourer nor a seat designer that knows the ergonomics. The Mk 1 to 7 had the brutal 80 ft per second gun. The Mk 9 and later had the 65 ft guns as the rocket pack more than made up by longer and smoother acceleration.

Much of my test flying was in A/C with early marks of seat, often Mk2s, so if I'd had to pull the handle I think I'd have suffered a bit of spinal compression. Rocket seats were said to give a pretty gentle ride, but again this came from a chap that had banged out in a Mk4 seat, so anything might have seemed gentle compared to that. The most memorable flight was in an aircraft with Stencel seats. The safety brief on the seat included several iterations of "don't expect anything on this seat to work automatically, like an MB seat, always go through all the manual drills post ejection". I gather the Stencel seat wasn't held in particularly high regard at that time, at least by that particular instructor.
VP959 is online now  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 18:18
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 711
Might this whole thread by encapsulated by....

“Is PPRuNe a men’s club?” - Who cares? As it’s anonymous, how do we know who’s m and who’s f? Nobody’s barred and nothing is compulsory. Come and go as you please.

Alternatively.

”Is mumsnet a women’s club?” - Again. Who cares?

Oh. I was described by my CFI on graduating from AFTS as easily the scruffiest officer to ever have passed through the doors. Should I have been offended by this?
4468 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 19:01
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Norwich
Posts: 34
It is not a male dominated place. ORAC's post count makes that not the case.
Non Linear Gear is online now  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 21:00
  #28 (permalink)  
See and avoid
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 516
Does PPRuNe need a dedicated social section aimed at women on topics like how to iron a mans shirt correctly
It reflects the past history of opportunities available to women versus men.

Last edited by visibility3miles; 6th Jan 2021 at 21:16.
visibility3miles is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 21:19
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: London
Posts: 1
You're downroute in the hotel bar with the cabin crew. You're all waiting for the captain to turn up. The captain walks in wearing a dress and a nice pair of high heels. What do you say?


Of course, the captain is a woman...
What did you think? 😶

But seriously, we need more females in this occupation and on these forums.
A320 Glider is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 23:07
  #30 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,989
I donít see why some complain so much on behalf of others who donít need or want their patronisation.

Females are as welcome as males. Both into the aviation profession and to this forum. Same in the military, at least in U.K. since 1989. Some of my female student pilots were the first and one of mine captained the first all female RAF fast jet sortie. If anyone chooses not to join in, so be it. My daughter was one; despite my personal hopes, after a couple of years as a UAS student, where she did very well, she chose not to go into aviation. Nor did my sons, for that matter. None of them have any interest in aviation forums.

Iím one of the founder members of this forum, having ďsigned upĒ in 1995 and women have certainly always been welcome here.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2021, 23:26
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Norwich
Posts: 34
As an LAE, I have had P1 and P2's that were not male to deal with on the flight deck. They were and are as competent as any male pilot I have dealt with.
Non Linear Gear is online now  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 11:19
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 711
Torquetalk

This is purely about context as this thread was about whether PPRuNe is a male chauvinist club
Really? Iíve just searched this entire thread. Your post is the first time the word ďchauvinistĒ has been used. The threadís title is ďIs PPRuNe a menís club.Ē

Is a menís club (club for men) always by very definition, chauvinist? Does the same apply to a club for women? 😳🤔
4468 is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 12:47
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,403
It seems that Helol, who claims to be female (in an anonymous forum) is happy to be 'one of the boys' and seems to think that she speaks for the rest of her gender. As a 'patronising old git', I continue to offer a seat, open doors, offer escort when needed, all habits engrained in me from youth, in an age when foul-mouthed harridans were considered to be the social misfits that they surely are. Times change and mores also and it's debatable whether this is an 'improvement'. One potential improvement would be in literacy, such that the term 'Chauvinism' took its correct meaning *- that of super-Nationalism or jingoistic clap-trap. What is constantly coupled with the term, is 'male' - a total irrelevance, since there will be just as many female flag wavers as their male counterparts. The correct term is 'sexist', and those to whom it is applicable are just as unwelcome.
*see Nicolas Chauvin
Cornish Jack is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 14:16
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,403
To add apparent substance to your published comment.
Let me offer a little gentle, well-intended advice ... this forum, like most, is ANONYMOUS as regards posters' identities. Assuming that things are as stated, particularly in respect of bona fides is a route to, at best, potential disappointment and, at worst, the sort of acceptance accorded 'The Guvnor'. Danny's keen sense of picking a 'wrong'un' eventually led to his unmasking and Government sponsored accommodation. The 'scam' world of the internet is fruitful territory for such characters - PPRuNe is no exception. Assuming that people are what they say they are, is foolish at best and possibly harmful at worst. You are, of course, free to take things on trust.
Cornish Jack is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 15:13
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 356
What an unpleasant thread this has turned into.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 15:47
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,415
This thread is going far south if we continue talking about personalities.

For me i prefer mysteries of gender fed by confusion and obfuscation
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 16:02
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by 4468 View Post

Really? Iíve just searched this entire thread. Your post is the first time the word ďchauvinistĒ has been used. The threadís title is ďIs PPRuNe a menís club.Ē

Is a menís club (club for men) always by very definition, chauvinist? Does the same apply to a club for women? 😳🤔
Sexism is a form of chauvinism and it was clearly the intent of the OP to provoke with their initial misogynistic remarks.

I think the short answer to your question is no. A longer and more nuanced answer might involve ďmost of the timeĒ. The reason and history for excluding men and excluding women from groups have largely different historical purposes. Men are excluded from many womensí groups for entirely appropriate reasons. Historically the same cannot be said for the exclusion of women. The net effects of that discrimination are still reflected in social structures today. Inevitably this is reflected on an aviation forum.

In one environment where I have been working recently, there is rank sexism. Those involved justify the fact that it is exclusively men who have the best jobs, are exclusively the decision-makers and have complete control over policy, in terms of meritocracy (of course they do). The fact that over many decades only men have risen to the top or have anything to say is, by their argument, due to the superiority of men at each and every point a person is appointed. Not very believable over such a long period of time. Change is of course bitterly resisted with arguments that belong somewhere in the last century, both in Western social thinking and in law.

You are right Sallyann. It is an ill-humored thread. But the tone was set at the outset and the likelihood that it would head anywhere good was always slim.
Torquetalk is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 16:43
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In my head
Posts: 101
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
What an unpleasant thread this has turned into.
You're right. I have deleted my post, as God only knows why I was drawn into this thread; I normally have the good sense to ignore them. Not typical of my usual behaviour and why I don't contribute that much; most of the time t I 'just can't be bothered' - I must have read it at a weak moment!

Maybe I should join a knitting forum....
Helol is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 16:52
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 5,645
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
What an unpleasant thread this has turned into.
Turned into? The start wasn't great...
SWBKCB is online now  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 17:10
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 711
Sexism is a form of chauvinism and it was clearly the intent of the OP to provoke with their initial misogynistic remarks.
Are you suggesting LTNman is male?

I didn’t presume that?

As others, including myself have said. This is an anonymous forum. For example, I have no idea what gender you are and why would I care? (Or if you even choose to self identify in any particular way?) Very few here know who is who. No gender is barred, nor should they be. Nothing is compulsory. Reading too much into what is written can often result in revealing prejudice in the reader, rather than the author.

Perhaps you would have much preferred the thread title to have more explicitly been, “Is PPRuNe sexist, stuffed full of rabid mysoginists?” Constantly excluding/ignoring belittling the opinions of females? In which case you could have had a field day tilting at windmills, enjoyable and ‘informative’ mainly to yourself.

By all means continue, but please forgive me if I leave you to argue with yourself.

Though I must confess, I am intrigued by this comment:

Men are excluded from many womens’ groups for entirely appropriate reasons.
Please give me a clue? Then try to think of any “entirely appropriate reasons” for women to be excluded from many men’s groups? Because I’m genuinely struggling to think of one.

Thanks.

Last edited by 4468; 7th Jan 2021 at 17:47.
4468 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.