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Are things worse than we could have imagined

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Are things worse than we could have imagined

Old 6th Oct 2020, 15:48
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Are things worse than we could have imagined?

No. But they will be if the the virus gets out of control and the essential services are overwhelmed when there are not enough people left standing to run them

Maybe even recycle the corpses to grow more food.
A pretty distasteful statement by Harley Quinn, I hope it was tongue in cheek.

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Old 6th Oct 2020, 16:29
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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scr1 what it actually said was:

5.Migration to the UK has been the main driver of population growth since the 1990s

Change in population size has four components: births, deaths, immigration and emigration.

Population change = Number of births
- Number of deaths
+ Number of immigrants
- Number of emigrants

The difference between the number of births and deaths is referred to as “natural change”. When natural change is positive, there have been more births and deaths in the considered timeframe. When it is negative, there have been more deaths than births.

The difference between the number of immigrants (people moving into the UK for more than 12 months) and the number of emigrants (people moving out of the UK for more than 12 months) is termed “net migration”.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 22:21
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
Are things worse than we could have imagined?
A pretty distasteful statement by Harley Quinn, I hope it was tongue in cheek.
Not at all tongue in cheek. It is maybe a step or two beyond the current practice of muck spreading.
I am not suggesting that we all start eating long pig, but perhaps that a useful limit be placed upon the older members of the population, either a mandatory hard backstop, or as I suggested let them take their chances, withholding medical interventions.
They/we are an unsustainable part of the population as we keep being reminded by all the youngsters.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 22:54
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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How about when ticketing 'youngsters' for not wearing masks where appropriate and declining to physical distance, tell them that this will cost them xxx$/£.
Then tell them the next one will not come with a fine.
Instead, as they will have proven to have no concern for themselves and others, they will be barred from any medical services relating to the pandemic.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 23:02
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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HQ I am intrigued by your use of the phrases 'useful limit'....and 'hard backstop'. I am unable to assign any meaning to those words within context covid-19; I request explanation.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 05:52
  #146 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
Not at all tongue in cheek. It is maybe a step or two beyond the current practice of muck spreading.
I am not suggesting that we all start eating long pig, but perhaps that a useful limit be placed upon the older members of the population, either a mandatory hard backstop, or as I suggested let them take their chances, withholding medical interventions.
They/we are an unsustainable part of the population as we keep being reminded by all the youngsters.
That's a very adroit and sanitised way of describing eugenics ......
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 06:34
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
That's a very adroit and sanitised way of describing eugenics ......
Actually, eugenics includes culling the less productive members, even if they are young. HQ for instance.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 07:03
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Eugenics

As horrific a policy of eugenics is, unless I missed something, it doesn’t necessarily involve exterminating people.

Unless the elderly are still intending to breed they are unlikely to be a target of a eugenics programme.

Are we maybe getting confused with euthanasia?

Eugenics involves selectively breeding people (or forcibly sterilising people) to remove undesirable traits from a population. The fact that the nazis used it as an excuse does not mean the mass slaughter of people was part of the original intentions of the eugenics movement.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not in any way support the principle and I remember when I first read about it in a Bill Bryson book I couldn’t believe that a country such as the USA actively pursued it in the 20th century. Mind boggling.

BV
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 07:42
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Living through several generations as I have, one notes that the inclination to mess things up, big time, is not only the preserve of older generations, for they were also once young.
Youth often seeks to prove that things can be done better than that what their elders could achieve but usually they just find new ways to achieve the same, or a similar mess.
Since most "messes" get created by people in the workplace, and I include politicians in the mix, the older generations, become generally, the recipients of their own bad decisions and mistakes.

I doubt anyone working in the Yuhan Lab and managing the security in said place were of an age where they should be retired.

May I suggest that any culling proposed, takes place be among those who authorize, create and mismanage, politics, strategy, technology and life, for their legacy will be for themselves and their children in the future.

IG
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 09:13
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post

Eugenics involves selectively breeding people (or forcibly sterilising people) to remove undesirable traits from a population.
It's a good thing we don't have a very wealthy and powerful individual whose father and grandfather were leading Eugenicists, has fingers in all the Big Pharma pies, has a spell over the media, the fawning support of world leaders and wants to inject each and every one of us. Oh wait.
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 19:36
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
That's a very adroit and sanitised way of describing eugenics ......
No it's not.

I have formed the belief that nationally limiting life span is probably the most appropriate way of dealing with old folk in this country. We know how poorly the old are treated, their illnesses or conditions often suck any quality of life from them. They get placed in old people's homes, out of sight, out of mind. Some are good, some are definitely not. I certainly do not want to go through that. I would add that I may change my view the closer I get to the limiting age, but then again I might not.
As a species we will carry out euthanasia on animals to prevent suffering, indeed there are even specific standards to be met when slaughtering them as a commodity, yet we are squeamish about allowing humans to die with dignity; the closest we get is to withhold food and water. To me that is so barbaric I consider it criminal.
No doubt someone will raise the issue of some fit and active centenary. Those folk, wonderful as they are, are an anomaly, a rarity. For many old folk life is pretty unpleasant
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 20:20
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
Those folk, wonderful as they are, are an anomaly, a rarity. For many old folk life is pretty unpleasant
Given your tender age, at what age do you (currently) think the old should be removed? Understand that this age may change as you get older.
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 21:08
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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I saw yesterday that the Aussies don't plan to reopen their border until late NEXT year. Surely that this the death knell for any international airline based in that region?

Are the other Asia-Pacific nations going to follow suit?
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 21:44
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by keeprighton1974 View Post
It's a good thing we don't have a very wealthy and powerful individual whose father and grandfather were leading Eugenicists, has fingers in all the Big Pharma pies, has a spell over the media, the fawning support of world leaders and wants to inject each and every one of us. Oh wait.
Now would that be the individual whose foundation, stifted by large chunks of his personal wealth, has driven a highly successful polio eradication programme and also has malaria in its sights?

In addition to a reality check, your post needs a spell check.
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 22:06
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Ah survival of the fittest, the idea attributed to Darwin but was actually introduced by Spencer, an early sociologist who sought to explain why people who had lots of power and wealth were naturally on top by hijacking evolutionary theory. Unfortunately Darwin was persuaded to add the phrase to later revisions of TOOS becuase he thought it was a good match for his general theory.

But Darwin did not think fitter meant better or desirable. He just thought one species might be better suited to survive in an environment than others and adaptively evolve. But he knew nothing about genes. And Dawkins and co use this knowledge to go a step further. The species is only as relevant as it thinks it is. The genes don‘t give a rat‘s arse about human beings, old or young, and will unthinkingly reproduce themselves if they can.

Unless, that is, human beings intervene because we are social beings that can shape and control our world. I wouldn‘t be handing control over to “nature“ in a hurry.
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 22:38
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
No it's not.

I have formed the belief that nationally limiting life span is probably the most appropriate way of dealing with old folk in this country. We know how poorly the old are treated, their illnesses or conditions often suck any quality of life from them. They get placed in old people's homes, out of sight, out of mind. Some are good, some are definitely not. I certainly do not want to go through that. I would add that I may change my view the closer I get to the limiting age, but then again I might not.
As a species we will carry out euthanasia on animals to prevent suffering, indeed there are even specific standards to be met when slaughtering them as a commodity, yet we are squeamish about allowing humans to die with dignity; the closest we get is to withhold food and water. To me that is so barbaric I consider it criminal.
No doubt someone will raise the issue of some fit and active centenary. Those folk, wonderful as they are, are an anomaly, a rarity. For many old folk life is pretty unpleasant
No problem if society collectively decides that everyone over a set age has to be put down, as long as those who have to do all the mass killing (and we're talking about holocaust scale industrial slaughter) are compulsorily drawn from all sections of society, so every gets their fair share of the killing, mass transport of bodies and burial/cremation of all those they no longer wish to be a part of their society.

If the chosen age is, say, 75 years old, then that's roughly 5 million people in the UK that need to be slaughtered for starters. It took the Nazis around 4 years to slaughter 6 million, but with today's technology I'm sure that we could make the death camps more efficient than that. This would also provide much-needed employment opportunities, as tens of thousands of people would be needed to round up all the old people, transport them to the slaughter camps, process them, and their belongings, and deal with the mass burials.

Still, having managed to remove the initial 5 million from society, the task would become easier in following years, as there would only be a few hundred thousand per year to slaughter. Half a dozen well-organised death camps should be able to manage that sort of throughput, and might well be self-funding, by selling human waste products, like hair for wigs, tanned human skin for handbags and fertiliser from the remains of those slaughtered, perhaps.

12 years ago, my wife and I drove through the Czech Republic into Southern Poland for a holiday. Poland, and the Polish people, made this one of our most memorable holidays. What neither of us will ever forget, though, is the day we spent at Auschwitz-Birkenhau. No one can walk under that infamous wrought iron sign over the gateway, past the camp commandant's comfortable family house to the left, without thinking of the 1.3 million people that were exterminated there. Even now, the sheer industrial scale of that extermination operation has to be seen to be believed. We owe a great debt to Poland for maintaining Auschwitz-Birkenhau as an international memorial, as I am convinced that we are condemned to repeat the sins of our forebears unless we see, first hand, what they did.

Am I the only one who finds the idea of industrial scale slaughter of people, that some in today's society clearly believe are worthless, abhorrent?
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 22:50
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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You are not the only one.......to find this notion abhorrent.
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 23:34
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rifruffian View Post
You are not the only one.......to find this notion abhorrent.
+1 (and in reality, I imagine +millions)
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 01:21
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Some of us may not go quietly (we can carry guns)

I suppose you can always secretly poison them. I know now that they have pumped salt-peter into my house water system
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 02:19
  #160 (permalink)  
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A subject close to my heart.

This age business is a pain. I came back to the UK from Texas intending to join the Frinton tennis club and become the UK's over 80's champion. I was informed that a member holds that title. Well, I'd got a few years to get into trim. I even bashed a ball against a wall for half an hour. What memories. I'd spent countless hours proving my superiority to that wall. I returned the racket and balls feeling pretty good, but inside I knew that my systems malfunctioning was increasing at an exponential rate. Something was wrong. Some days I'd feel like playing tennis but some days I'd barely be able to get up the slight hill to get home.

It's frustrating because such mysterious little things were messing up an otherwise fit old bloke. I'm allergic to something in strong soap. About on a par with peanut allergy. I had back surgery - which cheered me up but the clock kept ticking.

Circa 77 years old I left hospital having had a second vitrectomy. I now had eyesight a teenager would be proud of and it allowed me to find my way to hospital for a hernia operation. I had to get that out of the way so that I could ride my bike to the yacht club where there was a beautiful Moody 38' ship for sale. It had two heads, an absolute necessity for someone that's been irradiated with Iodine 125. I did a lot of listening while in the bar. It didn't take long to realise that I'd forgotten almost everything I knew about sailing - and that there was not a chance I could manage the vessel alone. Some of the multiplicity of strings that one has to pull would take up all of my energy reserves, and then some. What's more, the same vessel that had looked so beautiful on a summer's day, turned into a menacing grey blob in the winter.

I'll concentrate on piano. I'll not be daft this time and limit myself to a Yamaha Clavinova. I'll get the carpel tunnel issue out of the way before I get serious about that. After all, I'll need the one with the serious keyboard, and that costs a lot of bread. I'll need fingers that'll do it justice. I'd trusted the surgeon with my spine, so I was not surprised when the operations went well. Astonishingly well. It was about the time the last wrist was settling down that I got a strange noise in my headbone when I tapped around the back of my ears. If only I'd known what I know now. It was weeks before I saw a charming surgeon and she told me the bad news. My cochlea hydrops is not going to get better. The noises I hear don't even resemble music. Ah well, thinks I. Think of the money you've saved not getting that piano.

In truth, it took away a large part of my life. I didn't realise just how important classical piano was to me.

80th birthday. It was nice. The Rivetess deigned to come with me to an Airbub at Bletchley Park. My daughter allowed me to be boring about the Boeing accidents, radio valves and resistors. I caught her falling asleep momentarily but pretended not to notice. The Rivetess even allowed me to drive her home to her apartment. I recall mentioning that would probably be the last time I drive home at night. The roads used to be mine late at night, but now no one seems to go to bed. After two hours of concentrating I'd had enough. Odd. That road has been made straighter and shorter, but now takes nearly twice as long. This is a new thing. What's happening? My short spell with a six series BMW twin turbo was quite rewarding, but nifty as it was, there was little point in driving something like that when one's intention is to obey speed limits. It had to go.

81st Birthday. What a different world. The Rivetess arrived at the front door with a card and a bottle of wine. At least, I think it was her. The eyes peeking over the huge black mask were familiar but I'd got no capacity to process the muffled noises which I suppose contained a happy birthday message. Less than five minutes and whoever it was had gone.

Being interested in millions of things and getting old is a formula for becoming famous, or diving into depression. My GP, or someone, pressed a red button and a letter came for me to attend a psycho-maintenance place at Colchester. I arrived, spurred on by all the attention I was getting and overran my appointment minutes by 100%. I'd lectured the nice gentleman on just about all there was to know about the Boeing accidents and convinced him that no one could lose as much as I had and not be depressed . . . unless they were barmy. He seemed confused, but mentioned I was drinking too much. 'Five bottles of wine a week could cause depression'. I informed him that not drinking five bottles a week would cause my brain to implode. I don't think he quite had the hang of my humour, but he was a bit furrin so to be expected. I formulated a compromise. I'd enjoy my wine and lie about drinking it.

I suppose getting old is kind of bewildering to most folk. Many will not fully sense the changes in their minds. They're subtle, just a small change here and there. Things that were interesting yesterday are not so compelling today. Just can't quite sort the tools out in the garage. Don't want that old AVO meter any more. Not that I can remember where it is. And the bloody aches. I still want to break into a run along the beach, some days. Other days everything hurts. I hold onto posts as I clamber over mini-breakwaters that I used to bound over on my morning runs. Hold onto things?! Bloody Nora.

I've reached the age of decision. I'm perfectly sure old age is a waste of time. If I can't fettle everything from cars to watches, and be totally self-sufficient, I know I've entered an age of uselessness which should not be a burden to society. However, some people are afraid of dying. Now that's a problem.

Having your head frozen could lead to a theological disaster. Just supposing your soul was being held up for hundreds of years. You'd be sitting in a metal bottle praying your funds would run out.

I feel a little apprehensive sometimes. What will it be like? I'll know soon enough. But if I'd signed a contract at a young age, say 40 years old, that my life would end abruptly upon not being able to pass a test proving my cognitive abilities, then it seems fair that I should be put down the same day. But who would do it? Doctors can't. Well, they're not supposed to. Then who?

I watched a TV program on the subject a few years ago. We were in a room in a European country. The subject was on a bed, her family gathered in the room. I was taken aback. The woman was astonishingly attractive. She was also able to hold the little cup of liquid to her lips. The process was not very satisfactory. She went into a deep sleep but didn't die. One of the family got themselves something to eat. Surreal? After a while the decision was made to inject her. Surely, this undoes any moral technicality that taking the brew herself had set? In the end, the injection ended her life. The image lingers in my mind. What difference does it make, taking the life from a shell that seems attractive? Personally, it presents me with a quite illogical division of moral logic.

I'll stop now. I'm rambling enough to cause folk to be board to . . . erm, death.
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