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Last Last Night of the Proms?

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Last Last Night of the Proms?

Old 23rd Aug 2020, 07:38
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Last Last Night of the Proms?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...roms-0fvhwmwlm

Rule Britannia faces axe in BBC’s ‘Black Lives Matter Proms’

The BBC is discussing whether to drop Rule Britannia and Land of Hope and Glory from the Last Night of the Proms in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement.

The traditional anthems are hugely popular with the flag-waving prommers who ordinarily cram into the Royal Albert Hall, but organisers fear a backlash because of their perceived association with colonialism and slavery.

Dalia Stasevska, 35, from Finland, who is conducting the Last Night, is among those said to be keen to modernise the evening’s repertoire and reduce the patriotic elements. A BBC source said: “Dalia is a big supporter of Black Lives Matter and thinks a ceremony without an audience is the perfect moment to bring change.”.....

Wasfi Kani, 64, chief executive of Grange Park Opera in Surrey, whose parents sought refuge in the UK after the partition of India in 1947, is among those who would cheer the removal of the songs. “I don’t listen to Land of Hope and Glory and say ‘thank God I’m British’ — it actually makes me feel more alienated. Britain raped India and that is what that song is celebrating,” she said.

Proms presenter Josie d’Arby, who is black, said: “This year, everyone is thinking about racial equality . . . The Proms has always done that, but . . . it is upping it out of respect for the current climate.” She argued that the evening should be inclusive but retain tradition: “Part of being inclusive involves including your traditional audience and the diehard fans.”.....

Camilla Kerslake, 32, the Brit-nominated soprano, suggested the lyrics could be changed: “It’s possible to find a way to respect the music but make it modern.”.....
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:11
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Some people are just determined to make sure that Britain will never ever be "Great" again. Everything of value in this once great nation is being dismantled piece by piece until it becomes a totally faceless, historically re-engineered, swamp of eternal mediocrity. I for one will mourn the passing of the Proms as it was and refrain from attending as has been my want for many years.. Am I complaining about the loss of empire? - No, Am I patriotic and proud of what our nation has achieved in the past, tempered by the sacrifice of many to achieve it? - Yes.

Britain, the "Land of Hope of Glory" is what brought Wafi's parents and many others here, and gave her the hope and opportunity to become the citizen she wanted to be. Unless they were just economic migrants in which case they might as well have stayed in India.

Just another nail in a now less gilded coffin.

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Last edited by Imagegear; 23rd Aug 2020 at 14:37.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:21
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The crucial word there is “perceived”, I don’t think for one minute that the flag-wavers at the Proms think they are celebrating slavery, they think they are celebrating being British.
Personally as someone who has played a lot of Last Night of the Proms concerts (not in the RAH though) I’m bored with them and wish they’d stop, but audiences love them!
Surely there are more important targets of anti-racism campaigns than this, or is it an easy target for max publicity job? I suspect it is. Problem is it may make he job of tackling real racism harder as it gets people’s backs up, gives the Daily Heil an easy headline, etc.
I don’t recall seeing Martin Luther King complaining about songs, he was far more concerned about the real everyday racism in America at the time so he focussed on that, much harder but he actually achieved something!
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:28
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While you're at it, you may as well close down St Paul's or turn it into a secular wedding venue or a "multi-faith Community Centre". And once the Queen passes, no need to keep up Buckingham Palace -- too offensive to the perpetually butt-hurt crowd. Besides, the next King and his family could just as well be put up at a Holiday Inn.

What a shame that the culture and history that led the world into democracy is being cast aside by those who cannot recognize its value.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:20
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
While you're at it, you may as well close down St Paul's or turn it into a secular wedding venue or a "multi-faith Community Centre". And once the Queen passes, no need to keep up Buckingham Palace -- too offensive to the perpetually butt-hurt crowd. Besides, the next King and his family could just as well be put up at a Holiday Inn.

What a shame that the culture and history that led the world into democracy is being cast aside by those who cannot recognize its value.
Sometimes, those outside can see us better than we see ourselves.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:33
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
Some people are just determined to make sure that Britain will never ever be "Great" again. Everything of value in this once great nation is being dismantled piece by piece until it becomes a totally faceless, historically re-engineered, swamp of eternal mediocrity. I for one will mourn the passing of the Proms as it was and refrain from attending as has been my want for many years.. Am I complaining about the loss of empire? - No, Am I patriotic and proud of what our nation has achieved in the past, tempered by the sacrifice of many to achieve it? - Yes.

England, the "Land of Hope of Glory" is what brought Wafi's parents and many others here, and gave her the hope and opportunity to become the citizen she wanted to be. Unless they were just economic migrants in which case they might as well have stayed in India.

Just another nail in a now less gilded coffin.

IG
It really is total nonsense to suggest the "Rule Britannia" and "Land of Hope and Glory" be dropped from the Last Night just to satisfy the BLM brigade and follow a "BAME" agenda. The Proms are what they are, a very British celebration of Britishness, and there's nothing wrong with that, as can be seen by the countless flags of a myriad nations that are waved on the night in normal times. The politically correct nonsense needs to be put firmly back in it's box where it belongs. You only have to look at or listen to the BBC to see that they are more than determined to be inclusive, they go out of their way to put unbalanced numbers of LGBTQ and BAMEs behind microphones and in front of camera in relation to the proportions in the country at large.

However, we would be equally deluded to suggest that Britain might ever be "Great" again, except in the sense that the term "Great" was ever attached to these islands (that is a geographical context). The decisions of the last half decade have put paid to that.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:45
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
Some people are just determined to make sure that Britain will never ever be "Great" again. Everything of value in this once great nation is being dismantled piece by piece until it becomes a totally faceless, historically re-engineered, swamp of eternal mediocrity. I for one will mourn the passing of the Proms as it was and refrain from attending as has been my want for many years.. Am I complaining about the loss of empire? - No, Am I patriotic and proud of what our nation has achieved in the past, tempered by the sacrifice of many to achieve it? - Yes.

England, the "Land of Hope of Glory" is what brought Wafi's parents and many others here, and gave her the hope and opportunity to become the citizen she wanted to be. Unless they were just economic migrants in which case they might as well have stayed in India.

Just another nail in a now less gilded coffin.

IG
Please make your mind up. Are you talking about Britain or England? The two terms are not interchangeable.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:49
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I believe there is now a significant risk that doing plain stupid stuff, like removing Rule, Britannia!, or Land of Hope and Glory, from the Last Night might well provoke dislike, perhaps even hatred, against the BLM movement, and by association, perhaps, anyone who is black. Attacking long-standing British traditions, simply because a small minority are too dim to understand that these traditions have nothing to do with slavery or racism, is bound to stir up anger in a number of people, me included.

Quite apart from anything else, those wanting to abolish these traditional pieces of music need a lesson in history. Elgar wasn't born until 1857. We abolished slavery 50 years before he was born. Similarly for Rule, Britannia! as performed at the Last Night. The arrangement performed today was written by Sir Malcolm Sargent and didn't appear until his time as conductor, some time in the late 1950s, early 1960s, I believe. Before that, Rule, Britannia! had just been a part of Sir Henry Woods Fantasia on British Sea Songs, and anyway, the Proms themselves didn't begin until nearly a century after we'd abolished slavery, and there is nothing at all in the lyrics of Rule, Britannia! to cause offence, unless there is some objection to the anti-slavery lyrics that are repeated in at the end of every verse.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 14:34
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I have a feeling that there's a significant proportion of the audience who are there primarily to wave their union flags, make a noise and say that they had been to the Last Night of the Proms - they're not really interested in the music. My wife and I were Promenaders in the 1980s and the Last Night had the air of a party for those regulars who had stood in the Arena and Gallery, and slept on the pavement in the queue (I soon discovered that in September a flag was not enough to keep me warm and the pavements were very hard!) and who would not see each other until the start of the next season in July.

Nowadays people who go seem to think it's all about jingoism, whereas the second half of the Last Night was a tradition that went back to Henry Wood's time.

If the Proms are
a very British celebration of Britishness
why are relatively few works by British composers performed, and do the various orchestras who come from overseas get temprary citizenship?
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 14:36
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Originally Posted by Avionker View Post
Please make your mind up. Are you talking about Britain or England? The two terms are not interchangeable.
I am well aware of the difference, I was associating words from the anthem "Jerusalem", usually played at the same time at the Proms

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

My bad and duly edited.

IG

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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 14:44
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A soccer chant comes to mind if they make these changes

"You can stick your ferkin Last Night up your a**e.................".etc.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 15:22
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I believe there is now a significant risk that doing plain stupid stuff, like removing Rule, Britannia!, or Land of Hope and Glory, from the Last Night might well provoke dislike, perhaps even hatred, against the BLM movement, and by association, perhaps, anyone who is black. Attacking long-standing British traditions, simply because a small minority are too dim to understand that these traditions have nothing to do with slavery or racism, is bound to stir up anger in a number of people, me included.

.
Perhaps that is the intention of those who published it? Divide and rule has always been a method of government.....
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 15:27
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Gosh, All those sacrifices to preserve free speech and finally we succumb to the totalitarianism of the Orwellian predictions that so many strove to protect us from in WWII, the cold war and since. I do hope that society wakes up.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 15:36
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Originally Posted by andytug View Post
Perhaps that is the intention of those who published it? Divide and rule has always been a method of government.....
Whilst there is a certain logic to that view, I honestly doubt that our leaders are anywhere near clever enough to have come up with the idea, let alone implement it. . . Mind you, Boris seems to have gone into hiding recently, perhaps this is what he's been dreaming up, rather than doing his job effectively.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 15:52
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Maybe the BBC should look to rename itself rather than the British Broadcasting Company.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 16:39
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Many of you wil have seen my opinions about BLM and my hatred for jingoism and the Dail Heil.
However, try as I might, I cannot understand why Land of Hope and Glory should be removed.
Yes,it is a patriotic anthem, nothing wrong with that. Then I thought, well maybe the lyrics have some historical connection to slavery. Not a bit of it.

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/...ope-and-glory/

It does bang on about god though, which is a bit objectional to some of us, but it's in no way offensive.

What about Rule Brittania?
Nope! Nothing to be alarmed about there. Bit jingoistic but not as bad as the national anthem.

As has been said, this just breeds hatred in the ranks of the knuckle dragging meatheads that call themselves the master race.

Stupid idea.


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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 17:10
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I can't quite understand why there seems to be a view that national pride, in the specific case of Britain, is somehow something to be despised, or at the very least hidden away or played down. The contrast with the USA is pretty interesting. There people take great public pride in being seen to be patriotic, be that proudly flying their flag at any opportunity, or singing nationalistic songs. Doing something similar in the UK would be seen by many as being jingoistic.

At our last house, I erected a flag pole shortly before the Queen's Diamond Jubilee, and hoisted the Union Flag on the day. I received a lot of critical comments for doing this, and only very few positive ones. I was going to erect the pole here, where we now live, but my wife is adamant that she doesn't want to us to attract yet more critical comments. If we lived in the US, I'm sure no one would be critical of flying the Stars and Stripes outside our home.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 17:19
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I have no doubt that this will result in many more people distancing themselves from BLM principles while leaning more towards racism, overt or covert, than those who will choose to align more closely with the BLM cause.

IG.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 17:32
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The ironical part is that these people, or their forefathers, came here BECAUSE it was great, and now don't want us to proclaim it. They should be leading the singing.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 17:46
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If the BBC do drop those songs, The Nip is correct. Urgent re-naming of BBC.

PCPWBC works well. Politically Correct Properly Woke Broadcasting Co..................... Shorten to PWBC
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