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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

Old 26th May 2020, 23:24
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Do you think it acceptable to tell a person providing a modest living for his/her young family by working for someone, or running his own small business, that he must close the business and have ZERO income, for a period of time that is indeterminate.....
At this point, the time is 2 months or so.

It is pretty basic economic advice for individuals starting out on their own to, as quickly as possible, set aside savings equivalent to 3-6 months of income, for just such events. Or for businesses to set aside 6-12 months of operating expenses to survive a crisis.

Restaurants in particular (and particularly hard-hit), as I was told in the 1980s, should be capitalized to the extent that they can survive 3 years before achieving a net profit.

It occurs to me that many individuals and businesses (for reasons preceding and mostly unrelated to Covid) - if they are in trouble after only 2 months - suffered from "a pre-existing condition." Poor financial health. And that may make their survival rate lower, just as poor physical health produces a lower survival rate with Covid.

The question perhaps should be, why are so many Americans, in their own lives or in a business, in such poor financial health? Poor education about "money"? Poor planning? Poor choices? And who is responsible for the outcome of such problems?

A supporter of pure capitalism would say that it is a question of personal responsibility. The freedom to succeed inevitably also includes the freedom to fail - and to accept the consquences. And one should be very hard-headed about one's life or one's business, and do what is needed to build one's own "safety net" before splurging on life's goodies.

That can be hard work - not just the job or running the business, but also the mental effort and anguish of denying oneself instant gratifications: of children and marriage, or material goodies, or donations, or concert tickets, or any other unnecessary expense until such time as one's financial existence is reasonably secure.

As I mentioned before, I went to one anti-shutdown protest and was surprised at the number of protesters driving around in $60,000 SUVs. Maybe if they had put that $60,000 aside and kept it safe, they would not have been in such trouble?

A supporter of a mixed economy (sometimes mistakenly called "socialism") would say that those who make poor life choices should nevertheless be protected from some of the consequences of those choices. Perhaps a universal basic income, or realistic unemployment periods, or maybe not loading up those starting out, with 1) unrealistic expectations or 2) heavy student debt. Or perhaps simply better universal economic education.

My dad grew up (age 11-21) during the Great Depression. And that made him a life-long penny-pincher, since he learned about street-wise economics through the school of very-hard knocks. The ceiling could fall in at any time, so be prepared. He studied and worked hard to become a chemist (a job for the future economy, not the past); he deferred the creative career he really wanted (teaching) until he could afford it at age 30; he deferred marriage and children to the age of 36; he deferred ever buying a new car until the age of 49 (!)

Only a little of that rubbed off on me - but enough that I survived three layoffs, multiple recessions, and two serious economic crashes (2008 and today) with minimal disruption. Not because I was a financial genius, but because, thanks to him, I knew that "perpetual growth" was a myth, and "just in time income" can dry up at any moment. And that I needed a little basic armor set aside. Don't live too close to the edge - unless you can handle falling off.

And pay cash (or you can't afford it!)
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Old 27th May 2020, 00:03
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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pattern_is _full,

My dad and mom did as well. They forwarded different values to their off-spring than obgraham's values in postings that I see here...

Great post!!!
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Old 27th May 2020, 00:55
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Well said Pattern. Very well said.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
At this point, the time is 2 months or so.

It is pretty basic economic advice for individuals starting out on their own to, as quickly as possible, set aside savings equivalent to 3-6 months of income, for just such events. Or for businesses to set aside 6-12 months of operating expenses to survive a crisis.

Restaurants in particular (and particularly hard-hit), as I was told in the 1980s, should be capitalized to the extent that they can survive 3 years before achieving a net profit.

It occurs to me that many individuals and businesses (for reasons preceding and mostly unrelated to Covid) - if they are in trouble after only 2 months - suffered from "a pre-existing condition." Poor financial health. And that may make their survival rate lower, just as poor physical health produces a lower survival rate with Covid.

The question perhaps should be, why are so many Americans, in their own lives or in a business, in such poor financial health? Poor education about "money"? Poor planning? Poor choices? And who is responsible for the outcome of such problems?

A supporter of pure capitalism would say that it is a question of personal responsibility. The freedom to succeed inevitably also includes the freedom to fail - and to accept the consquences. And one should be very hard-headed about one's life or one's business, and do what is needed to build one's own "safety net" before splurging on life's goodies.

That can be hard work - not just the job or running the business, but also the mental effort and anguish of denying oneself instant gratifications: of children and marriage, or material goodies, or donations, or concert tickets, or any other unnecessary expense until such time as one's financial existence is reasonably secure.

As I mentioned before, I went to one anti-shutdown protest and was surprised at the number of protesters driving around in $60,000 SUVs. Maybe if they had put that $60,000 aside and kept it safe, they would not have been in such trouble?

A supporter of a mixed economy (sometimes mistakenly called "socialism") would say that those who make poor life choices should nevertheless be protected from some of the consequences of those choices. Perhaps a universal basic income, or realistic unemployment periods, or maybe not loading up those starting out, with 1) unrealistic expectations or 2) heavy student debt. Or perhaps simply better universal economic education.

My dad grew up (age 11-21) during the Great Depression. And that made him a life-long penny-pincher, since he learned about street-wise economics through the school of very-hard knocks. The ceiling could fall in at any time, so be prepared. He studied and worked hard to become a chemist (a job for the future economy, not the past); he deferred the creative career he really wanted (teaching) until he could afford it at age 30; he deferred marriage and children to the age of 36; he deferred ever buying a new car until the age of 49 (!)

Only a little of that rubbed off on me - but enough that I survived three layoffs, multiple recessions, and two serious economic crashes (2008 and today) with minimal disruption. Not because I was a financial genius, but because, thanks to him, I knew that "perpetual growth" was a myth, and "just in time income" can dry up at any moment. And that I needed a little basic armor set aside. Don't live too close to the edge - unless you can handle falling off.

And pay cash (or you can't afford it!)
Sure, not a bad set of goals, not always achievable. Some businesses don’t have the timeline to be able to stuff away 3+ years of money into a rainy day fund given their lifespan is short.

Either way, your piece while interesting really doesn’t have much relevancy to the Covid world we’re in.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:11
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
Obgraham,
Apparently, you are not enough of a United States citizen to know the difference between the American usage of the word 'geezer' and the UK usage. I am not interested in your usage of words like succinct, Trumphophobe and other prima donna words you like to use. At 80, I am firmly the part of the category you identify as "Old Geezers." You seem very willing to brush off their sacrifice compared to your honored commitment as a medical physician. Almost 80% of the pandemic 100,000 deaths in the United States are in the elderly or geezer category as you like to put it. To your usage I say you are an !

Just so you understand your derogatory remark: gee·zer| ˈɡēzər | noun1 North American informal, derogatory an old man. 2 British informal a man: he strikes me as a decent geezer - New Oxford Dictionary

Maybe you need to take another hiatus to refine your posting to not be so insulting...

TD
Safe place is two doors down and to the left.
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Old 27th May 2020, 03:01
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
At this point, the time is 2 months or so.

It is pretty basic economic advice for individuals starting out on their own to, as quickly as possible, set aside savings equivalent to 3-6 months of income, for just such events. Or for businesses to set aside 6-12 months of operating expenses to survive a crisis.
How many small businesses have you run? (Great idea if you can build that cushion, but it takes years to do it ...)
Have you talked to any millenials about how to run a budget that allows for 3-6 months of income as a cushion, particularly those carrying college loan debt? They will laugh in your face unless they are dealing drugs on the side.
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Old 27th May 2020, 03:28
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Turbine, I readily admit to being a geezer. Perhaps it's my self-deprecating manner, and I'm sorry if it is a term you find offensive. it's just part of medical "black humor". Would "old fogy" suit you better? How about "Gomer", or as my daughter defines it "get out of my emergency room".

Meawhile, I find it rather offensive that you think there are different categories of American citizenship. There are not.

Finally, I'll take my hiati when I decide, not you.
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Old 27th May 2020, 03:32
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Pattern, you seem to have great disdain for those who are not as financially prepared as yourself. Were you so well prepared at age 25 or so?
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Old 27th May 2020, 04:59
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Some businesses don’t have the timeline to be able to stuff away 3+ years of money into a rainy day fund given their lifespan is short.
How many small businesses have you run? (Great idea if you can build that cushion, but it takes years to do it ...)
My point is that one should have the capital set aside before even starting the business. Attempting to start a business while undercapitalized is poor business practice. And yes, a business that does that may well have a short lifespan. The capitalist would say "I told you so."

And yes, I have started a couple of businesses. In both cases, I figured out the capital requirements I needed to get them started - and that included cash in the bank (not a loan from a bank) in order to operate 6 months with no income at all. 100% equity.

And it did take 3 years to set that aside out of job income, for the first one. And it did mean deferred gratification - a cheap apartment and a cheap car (or mass transit) and being a penny-pincher everywhere else. I won't bore you with the details, just that I spent money on nothing that was not food and rent for 2-3 years. A monk's life (except shared now and then with the woman who eventually became my wife ).

The second one, I also took my time and spent and planned carefully. I did get a capital boost from that wonder of civilized society, a union-negotiated settlement for a mass lay-off (2008). Again, it went into a bank until I was ready to start the business.

I wasn't a hero for doing either of those - it was rational self-interest. (But I can tell you, sometime, about walking a mile through snow to the school bus - I did have to do that a couple of times, even as late as 1970. ).

I do feel for millennials, and Gen Z. We've been in a rough post-industrial transition for decades, whether one wants a job right out of high school, or pay (or borrow) the exorbitant freight for college. Which is why I support society helping dig them out of the hole society dug for them, and then educate them for and about the future, so that they can make good choices from now on.

...your piece while interesting really doesn’t have much relevancy to the Covid world we’re in.
Oh, I think it does. The past is always prologue. What is happening to someone now, and how well they can handle it, depends on choices they made 5-10-20 years ago.

I have gone my entire adult life understanding that the gravy-train could end at any moment for no rational or obvious reason, and to, in the Scout motto, Be Prepared.

I didn't know it would be Covid, or 2008, or any particular event. I just knew that something would happen eventually - something always does. That does not make me a pessimist. It may make me a form of survivalist - except I put a little money by in the bank, instead of into an AR-15 and MREs and a wilderness hideout.
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Old 27th May 2020, 05:32
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, I think it does. The past is always prologue. What is happening to someone now, and how well they can handle it, depends on choices they made 5-10-20 years ago.
we’ll seek the middle ground. Yours is advice regarding planning for the future, problem is we’re in the pandemic already.

What at least some, especially in the airline biz will take away from Covid is that every 5-10 years they'll encounter something that'll knocks them off track financially. UA depending where the furlough line falls may have pilots on their third furlough with the company despite being with the company less than 20 years.
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Old 27th May 2020, 17:36
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Just read this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52821304

I have to say it's confused me a bit. As I understand it, one of the core principles in the US is that anyone can say anything, as you have an absolute right to freedom of speech. It seems that Twitter isn't actually interfering with that right, but is applying warnings to any content that may not be accurate. Because of this, your president actually wants to restrict free speech, by saying, quote: "We will strongly regulate, or close them down, before we can ever allow this to happen.". How does regulating, or closing down, a free speech publishing service encourage free speech?

I get that Twitter is his favourite means of addressing the world, but the bottom line is surely that Twitter is entitled to run it's global business as it sees fit, isn't it? It's not as if Twitter is blocking content, or at least not content that the president puts out, all they are doing is much the same as other social media outlets; adding a short phrase below any content that it would be advisable for readers to fact check.. This seems to me to be highly responsible, given that people have died by swallowing disinfectant etc, after reading about it online.
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Old 27th May 2020, 18:32
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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When did Trump ever advise swallowing disinfectant?
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Old 27th May 2020, 18:45
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
When did Trump ever advise swallowing disinfectant?
Not what I wrote or implied at all. Best read it again.

It's a fact that Covid-19 misinformation (from many sources) has caused people to do stupid things, from drinking disinfectant and pool cleaner, to overdosing on hydroxychloroquine.

This is a deflection, anyway, as the key point was a question about freedom of speech, and how exactly regulating or closing down a free speech publisher worked towards protecting that right. Seems to me that closing down any social media site, like Twitter, would be trying to suppress free speech, wouldn't it?



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Old 27th May 2020, 20:03
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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VP959, you make the mistake of ascribing to DJT any motive or mode of "thought" that is not strictly about DJT's ego.

Don't ask for a rational explanation of the actions or words of someone still living in (or revisiting) his "Terrible Twos."

I am completely serious. Once one understands that about Trump, nothing he does or says is a mystery.
.
  • Continues to use physical aggression if frustrated or angry (for some children, this is more exaggerated than for others); Physical aggression usually lessens as verbal skills improve.
  • Temper tantrums likely to peak during this year; extremely difficult to reason with during a tantrum.
  • Impatient; finds it difficult to wait or take turns.
  • "Bossy" with parents and caregivers; orders them around, makes demands, expects immediate compliance from adults.
  • Watches and imitates the play of other children, but seldom interacts directly; plays near others, often choosing similar toys and activities- solitary play is often simple and repetitive.
  • Offers toys to other children, but is usually possessive of playthings; still tends to hoard toys.
  • Making choices is difficult; wants it both ways.
  • Often defiant; shouting "no" becomes automatic.
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Old 27th May 2020, 20:04
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Freedom of Speech doesn’t mean there’s no consequences for endangering the public. Say, like shouting fire in a crowded theatre.

There's libel laws and one can be sued for defamation of character, false accusations, etc.
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Old 27th May 2020, 20:37
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Not what I wrote or implied at all. Best read it again.I
Not what I wrote, either. Best read it again.
I simply asked a question. If you inferred something more that's not my problem, though I do note you prefer to deflect to make the topic all about you and your thoughts about the President.

So are you going to answer my question:
When did Trump ever advise swallowing disinfectant?
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Old 27th May 2020, 21:01
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
Not what I wrote, either. Best read it again.
I simply asked a question. If you inferred something more that's not my problem, though I do note you prefer to deflect to make the topic all about you and your thoughts about the President.

So are you going to answer my question:
Not sure what you're on about, or why you're being so aggressive about a simple query. My question was a very genuine one, about freedom of speech, and specifically how regulating or closing down online publishers aids free speech.

The misinformation issue that Twitter and others are trying to tackle seems very real, and very widespread, so I can understand why Twitter has started putting flags on tweets reminding people to fact check. FWIW, the story published here today that I was referring to about misinformation covers hundreds of deaths all around the world, and the disinfectant drinking incident, that seems to have killed hundreds, was in Iran, not the US: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-52731624
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Old 27th May 2020, 21:19
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Just read this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52821304

I have to say it's confused me a bit. As I understand it, one of the core principles in the US is that anyone can say anything, as you have an absolute right to freedom of speech. It seems that Twitter isn't actually interfering with that right, but is applying warnings to any content that may not be accurate. Because of this, your president actually wants to restrict free speech, by saying, quote: "We will strongly regulate, or close them down, before we can ever allow this to happen.". How does regulating, or closing down, a free speech publishing service encourage free speech?

I get that Twitter is his favorite means of addressing the world, but the bottom line is that Twitter is entitled to run it's global business as it sees fit, isn't it? It's not as if Twitter is blocking content, or at least not content that the president puts out, all they are doing is much the same as other social media outlets; adding a short phrase below any content that it would be advisable for readers to fact check.. This seems to me to be highly responsible, given that people have died by swallowing disinfectant etc, after reading about it online.
Yes, we do have a supposed right to free speech; where Trump is missing it is that the right to speech doesn't mean a private company is required to broadcast or publish that speech. They certainly have the right to police their own business and if they don't like what you are saying, then too bad for you. Trump seems to think Twitter is his own little newspaper; Some of the stuff Dear Leader tweets, especially lately, is IMHO libelous. The guy sure can dish it out but he sure can't take it.
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Old 27th May 2020, 21:31
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
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So, given that you have a right to free speech, has the president got the authority to regulate or close down a publisher?

Things are different here, as we don't have a written constitution, and there is no right to free speech, as such; the government can, and do, prevent the publication of information, but thankfully only within the boundaries of what's called a DSMA notice, and, at least in theory, publishers don't have to abide by that, although in practice they always tend to, because the repercussions of defying the government can be significant.
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Old 27th May 2020, 21:44
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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“Trump seems to think Twitter is his own little newspaper”

He seems to think Fox news is his own network too.

“Many will disagree, but @FoxNews is doing nothing to help Republicans, and me, get re-elected on November 3rd,”

Do the accidental president supporters on here not see this comment as very concerning.

At least Trump should have the decency to pretend that Fox news is an unbiased source of news instead of clearly announcing to the world that they have, at least in his mind on this occasion, ignored the handshake agreement he made with Murdoch to blindly fawn over him at all times.

Most of his supporters are too stupid to understand the significance of his tweet.
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