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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

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US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0

Old 3rd Jun 2020, 15:25
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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LW

out of interest, would you vote for Trump again this November? What would be your reasoning for either yes or no?

Im only interested as I seem to recall it was Con P (I think) who, despite being a Republican, voted for Obama for his first term.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 15:40
  #342 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
LW
out of interest, would you vote for Trump again this November? What would be your reasoning for either yes or no?
I don't know. I am not sure what I'll do that day. There's a lot between now and then that can happen. I may do as my son did in 2016: vote for a third party candidate rather than have to hold my nose and pick either of the two choices the major parties have offered up.
Right now, not seeing what I prefer in a leader. I am also not pleased with the scorched earth policy he has unleashed on the executive branch: what he calls "the deep state" and is his target seems to me to be people like me when I was a career military officer. Was I deep state? Got an old friend (career FBI who lives in the DC area) who sees the same slash and burn approach and it bugs him too.
I voted for him in 2016 because Hillary Clinton was the greater of two evils, Trump the lesser of two evils - that's how I saw it.
I think the both of them are/were poster children for what's wrong with our political system.
(If you go back to the pre 2016 Hamsterwheel discussions in the month running up to that election, I made a similar point then).
We don't have a third choice.
Too bad Ross Perot wasn't able to pull of the upset in '92 that Jesse Ventura managed a few years later as governor.
Might have changed things ... but we'll never know.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 15:50
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I don't know. I am not sure what I'll do that day. There's a lot between now and then that can happen. I may do as my son did in 2016: vote for a third party candidate rather than have to hold my nose and pick either of the two choices the major parties have offered up.
Right now, not seeing what I prefer in a leader. I am also not pleased with the scorched earth policy he has unleashed on the executive branch: what he calls "the deep state" and is his target seems to me to be people like me when I was a career military officer. Was I deep state? Got an old friend (career FBI who lives in the DC area) who sees the same slash and burn approach and it bugs him too.
I voted for him in 2016 because Hillary Clinton was the greater of two evils, Trump the lesser of two evils - that's how I saw it.
I think the both of them are/were poster children for what's wrong with our political system.
(If you go back to the pre 2016 Hamsterwheel discussions in the month running up to that election, I made a similar point then).
We don't have a third choice.
Too bad Ross Perot wasn't able to pull of the upset in '92 that Jesse Ventura managed a few years later as governor.
Might have changed things ... but we'll never know.
Thanks for your reply. I kinda guessed as to your answer as it’s apparent from above that you’re rightly proud of your Nation and Citizenship but appear to be less vociferous concerning POTUS.

I think the democrats will be kicking themselves as they completely misjudged the depth of feeling regarding HRC. Then again, was/is the US ready for the brand of socialism that Bernie may have provided.

FWIW, I voted completely differently at our last General Election compared to how I have done since I turned 18 all those years ago.

Apologies for the slight drift.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 15:55
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I don't know. I am not sure what I'll do that day. There's a lot between now and then that can happen. I may do as my son did in 2016: vote for a third party candidate rather than have to hold my nose and pick either of the two choices the major parties have offered up.
Right now, not seeing what I prefer in a leader. I am also not pleased with the scorched earth policy he has unleashed on the executive branch: what he calls "the deep state" and is his target seems to me to be people like me when I was a career military officer. Was I deep state? Got an old friend (career FBI who lives in the DC area) who sees the same slash and burn approach and it bugs him too.
I voted for him in 2016 because Hillary Clinton was the greater of two evils, Trump the lesser of two evils - that's how I saw it.
I think the both of them are/were poster children for what's wrong with our political system.
(If you go back to the pre 2016 Hamsterwheel discussions in the month running up to that election, I made a similar point then).
We don't have a third choice.
Too bad Ross Perot wasn't able to pull of the upset in '92 that Jesse Ventura managed a few years later as governor.
Might have changed things ... but we'll never know.
There are a lot of similarities to the choice we had here, two pretty damned awful candidates, so we had to choose the least worst option. Not a lot to choose between Trump and Johnson, either, in terms of leadership qualities. Like you, I'm convinced you'd have been far worse off with Clinton, just as we'd have been far worse off with Corbyn.

The main difference between the US and UK is that, unlike the UK, the US is the country that's seen as leading the world, and setting an example, particularly with regard to democracy. As an example for the rest of the world as to how to lead a great nation, Trump seems to be sadly lacking in competence. Whether it's fair or not, pretty much every story about Trump that hits the headlines here is always darkly humorous, highlighting yet again his unerring ability to seem like a complete and utter buffoon. I can't recall reading a story about Trump in recent months that wasn't ridiculing him; it seems that whatever the politics of the media outlets here, all delight in reporting his latest bit of Twitter insanity.

Admittedly, the bloke we chose isn't a lot better in terms of leadership ability, but thankfully our pet idiot hasn't yet mastered the dubious art of "government via Twitter". Not sure Trump has realised yet that Twitter is global, so all his many rantings ping on to devices all over the world the instant he hits send. I get the feeling he may think he's only sending this stuff within the USA, and probably hasn't yet caught on that he's broadcasting globally, and that his tweets almost certainly appear on the screens of every world leader, as well as journalists all around the globe.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:04
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
Thanks for your reply. I kinda guessed as to your answer as it’s apparent from above that you’re rightly proud of your Nation and Citizenship but appear to be less vociferous concerning POTUS.
Wasn't a fan during the primaries before 2016, as what I saw him doing was destructive for his own personal amusement as he went on the personal attack mode versus his GOP contenders.

Something that Brakes On said has me wishing to offer you a point: the more I observe our political system, the more I dislike the President having both houses of Congress in his/her party. I think that's toxic as often as not. The role of the loyal opposition was deemed to be a necessary one as the founders tried to put together a system that would keep too much power out of too few hands. At that time it was perceived that the tension between Executive and Legislative would be sufficient (heck, back then the VP was whomever got the second most votes) to keep each other in line, but over time parties formed (RIP, the Whigs, RIP Bull Moose) and here we are.
Some of the more dubious results of the two parties + White House include
LBJ's tenure
GW Bush and Iraq
Obama's two year rush to pass a health bill that (allegedly) nobody had read through and thoroughly debugged.

I am sure that we can find other examples. But those come to mind readily.
Single Party Rule isn't healthy: check out PRI in Mexico and any Communist state.
IMO, as a foreign observer, you can see some of it's more serious bad side effects in China - but my views on that are biased by believing in pluralistic systems. They are messy, but that's actually a good thing.

What I liked about the Bill Clinton era when he had to work with and against the opposing party being on Congress is that the checks and balances seemed to work a bit better, and the effort to reduce deficit/balance budget actually made some progress. I don't think that last aspect can happen with a party that has both houses and the White House.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:07
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I get the feeling he may think
Evidence?
My impression, vis a vis the Twitter as conduit to "the people" and "the world", is that he doesn't think (or at least doesn't think much) before hitting send.
I didn't like it when he first started to do that and I still don't. Nothing I can do about it, it's a part of his chosen style.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:14
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jez d View Post
Lonewolf, what you appear to be forgetting ..
Not forgetting at all.
Something you might want to remember: you are on the B side in this Rugby club, not the A Side.
Been true for about 40 years, but it wasn't until I worked up close and personal in NATO back in the 90's that I got a full appreciation of the delta. (Personal preference, glad the UK is still on the Security Council).
I would hate to think that Jetblasters across the pond consider UK politics none of their business. We need about as much help as you do at the moment.
Of interest, certainly, as I've been reading the Economist for years, and our system grew from the system that came out of the English Civil war (with the significant exception of no crowned head and our decisions to experiment with much else without interference for a century or so).
As I see it, and I lived in Europe for 9 years of my life, and in a few other foreign countries: you do you.
Different places, different styles.
It's your government, your system, make the best of it.

The Brexit campaign, the vote and that whole process in terms of "how do we work this out?" still interests me.
I never thought I'd see the Berlin wall fall. It did.
Didnt think the UK leave would succeed. It did.
Which means that there is some hope for Korea to one day reunify.
For my whole life I've not believed that N and S Korea would come back together.
I'll be happy as hell to be wrong about that too.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 3rd Jun 2020 at 16:34.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:37
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wtsmg View Post
Arrogant indeed.
It's called counter battery fire. Military term, look it up if necessary.
As to the quirks of other members: they are free to do as they like. Take it up with them.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:43
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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US Defence Secretary Mark Esper has, it appears, announced that he does not support use of the Army to subdue protesters.

Good for him; I wonder how long he will remain in post. If he really said that, it's one of the shortest resignation speeches on record.

For me, I'm wondering how many people are wondering if they did the right thing in voting in Trump, just as - I hope - many of those responsible for putting Johnson in power are now regretting their support for a useless waste of space.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:00
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
US Defence Secretary Mark Esper has, it appears, announced that he does not support use of the Army to subdue protesters. Good for him; I wonder how long he will remain in post. If he really said that, it's one of the shortest resignation speeches on record.
Heh, yeah, one wonders if he's already begun to pack. I had seen reference to this on Mil Av forum, and now here' a link.

I love being right. (nice job, Sec Def).
"I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act," Esper said, referring to the president's authority to deploy active-duty troops to respond to protests.The act was last invoked in 1992 to tamp down violent protests in Los Angeles after the Rodney King trial.
Hmm, in the King Riots Case: there was something about "timely response" that may have hinderred a National Guard response, but I am forgetting something. I'd an associate (Army Captain) who was in LA and deployed with the Guard for that instance ... details escape me.
(EDIT: MG Deik indicates that the governor called out 2000 of the National Guard at 2100 the night that it began. So I'm not sure the situations are equivalent; that's kind of the standard deal. For some reason, just after midnight local authorities reported no need for the 2000 guardsmen, and then at about 0300 all of the Guardsmen were in the armories/(local bases0 rather than on the streets to support law enforcement)
For Brakes On: I'd forgotten that instance. Here's the reference to to the legislation that can support it. But note what Esper has to say.
"The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire situations. We are not in one of those situations right now," Esper said in his first public comments since the protests erupted.
The normal way it's supposed to work is Governor calls out the guard, and then if need be asks for Federal assistance or additional capability as needed for a given situation/emergency.

If the governor doesn't call out the guard, or as in the Arkansas 1957 case removes the guard (yeah, that one was messy) a decision to deploy federal troops needs strong justification. (And Ike had it, the Suprem Court 1954 decision on school integration).
The legislation is discussed here,
Brakes On: I think it covers your qustion and I think you can see why Sec Def Esper make the remarks that he did. While the Normal chain of events is via section 251 it appears that section 252 puts the president's claim, or threat, into the category of "Constitutional, but not a best choice {yet}" - per the Sec Def's points.
(§251) {emphasis from the reporter at the link}
"[T]he President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia."
But the next section (§252) says:
"Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion."

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 3rd Jun 2020 at 17:43.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:09
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
US Defence Secretary Mark Esper has, it appears, announced that he does not support use of the Army to subdue protesters.

Good for him; I wonder how long he will remain in post. If he really said that, it's one of the shortest resignation speeches on record.

For me, I'm wondering how many people are wondering if they did the right thing in voting in Trump, just as - I hope - many of those responsible for putting Johnson in power are now regretting their support for a useless waste of space.
I see we are still inflating argujments into black and white so as to focus on the main victim to-be "Trump"

If you take the personage out of the arguments than we can get down to the meat.

The only issues worth discussing is the office of the president and its powers and limitations. It's not worth beating the same drum about how you hate Trump for being president.

In my view the latest clip-bite that has got you twisted is what you think The defense secretary meant and what the president is really doing within his lawful office..

Opinions are fine on all sides, insubordination could have consequences

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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:13
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Not forgetting at all.
Something you might want to remember: you are on the B side in this Rugby club, not the A Side.
Thanks for the compliment, LW, but I don't think we'd manage to field a B side at the moment. Perhaps you could ask China if they'd like to play?
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:38
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jez d View Post
Thanks for the compliment, LW, but I don't think we'd manage to field a B side at the moment. Perhaps you could ask China if they'd like to play?
I'd rather have tea.

@loma:
Finally got to look at where the President was coming from with his reference to deploying troops. I hadn't realized that the basic legislation had changed / been revised due to Katrina (which happened the year I retired). It was interesting to read through it again. At least I mostly remembered it right.
As above: I suspect that Secretary Esper is prepared to pack his bags.

But you know what else might have happened?

After some brain storming with some of his cabinet, the President might have decided to walk back the rhetoric and, for his own reasons, chose Sec Def to deliver the message. It's politics, right?

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 3rd Jun 2020 at 17:53.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 18:07
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I'd rather have tea.

@loma:
Finally got to look at where the President was coming from with his reference to deploying troops. I hadn't realized that the basic legislation had changed / been revised due to Katrina (which happened the year I retired). It was interesting to read through it again. At least I mostly remembered it right.
As above: I suspect that Secretary Esper is prepared to pack his bags.

But you know what else might have happened?

After some brain storming with some of his cabinet, the President might have decided to walk back the rhetoric and, for his own reasons, chose Sec Def to deliver the message. It's politics, right?
Oh so right, it’s politics in a Presidential Election year, the absolute worst kind.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 18:07
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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Trump claims he went to bunker for 'inspection' amid violent protests 😂
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 18:09
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I'd rather have tea.
Couldn't agree more.

One fears, however, that the soporific effects of the herb would have little effect on POTUS' current disposition.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 18:24
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fltlt View Post
Oh so right, it’s politics in a Presidential Election year, the absolute worst kind.
Well, I will admit that I was not looking forward to the run from March to November as the noise level would build up until November third.
Between COVID and This, it's just gonna get worse: the noise.
So it goes. (Hmm, wasn't that the sign off line for a famous TV show back in the 80's? Linda Ellerbee maybe? Memory foggy..)
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 18:32
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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The unfolding crisis in America is just beginning.

The riot control numbers used in response to the latest example of America’s divide between privileged white’s and racially marginalized blacks were largely put in place before the Floyd killing and are the result of a presidential directive issued in late March of this year.

The administration is well aware that with one in three unemployed, many more under employed combined with food shortages, the end of CARES assistance and heavily armed population tuned in to Fox news is a recipe for massive social upheaval in America particularly with the printing unlimited fiat currency as a reckless escape attempt from decades of economic kleptocracy.

Resulting hyper inflation will be the icing on the cake and civil war is a distinct possibility.

The state will never permit protests to continue indefinitely and like with US foreign policy, they will manufacture reasons to crack down at some point and remove constitutional rights without hesitation. ANTIFA will become the new WMD and according to Mark Esper said “The sooner that you mass and dominate the battle-space, the quicker this dissipates” when asked about protesters.

The Secretary of Defense just urged Governors to “dominate the battle-space” where the majority of the population are exercising their constitutional rights.

USA USA USA!


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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 18:44
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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A video, and later quite a powerful photograph, went viral on social media the other day after a copper was seen assaulting a young black lady sat on the ground. It went viral because the copper (white bloke) was chased off by the (supposed) sergeant, a black woman, who had seen it and then gave him a very public bollocking.





I mention this because it's just come out that that copper, in the last 4 years, has 71 use of force incidents on his record and during the same time period drew his firearm 51 times.

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2...cases-on-file/

You don't point a gun at something you don't want to kill.

Am I mental or is 51 draws a sign of someone just itching to use it?
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 19:02
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like the sergeant was doing that battlefield leadership thing well. Take charge.
Originally Posted by wtsmg View Post
Am I mental or is 51 draws a sign of someone just itching to use it?
Maybe both can be true.
It probably depends on which division he's in, and where his patrol area is. Some parts of a city are more dangerous than others. Some times of day are more dangerous than other times.

But it may also be that he is more prone to do that than other officers. So yeah, maybe his leadership needs to have word with him. Or maybe a few words.

A data point for you, possibly unrelated. My brother in law has been a cop for ~ 25 years.
He has never sent a round down range at anyone yet. I think his piece has been in his hand twice in all that time while on duty, but he hasn't had to use it. He has had the opportunity, Iexpect. Been a patrolman, in CID, about 7 years in Homicide, a few years in narco, a few in vice, and (as he puts it) too many years in the family violence unit.
He's a captain now.

(FWIW: as a practical matter, if you do need it, it does you little good if it's in the holster. "Quick draw" is for the movies)

As for people who need a quiet word, or maybe a smack upside the head: these scumbags.
(Nice job twittercompany in shutting them down for the time being)
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