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Black lives donít really matter London March.

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Black lives donít really matter London March.

Old 9th Jun 2020, 12:54
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Are there any statues of the slave owners Thomas Jefferson and George Washington in London?
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 12:58
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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It is quite frustrating reading some of this crap! The latest of which can be seen on this page. Agitators of one sort or another, have used protests, demonstrations etc to infiltrate and agitate. It's how they work. It is a clever, effective tactic. And it can be dealt with using clever and effective tactics. I have posted before on my involvement in effective measures to deal with this phenomenon but I won't feel shy to post again.
In riots in Aden in the 1960s, it was noticed that the "demo" got violent when certain players appeared on the plot, agitating the crowd. They always appeared at the back of or on the periphery of the crowd. Using the right tactics, a crowd with some issues they consider must be resolved now is an easy thing to work. Keeping at the edge of the crowd, the agitators' logic was they were safe at the back, it was the dummies at the front who were about to feel the batons, pick helves and boots of the soldiers or police. So, the snatch squad was born and half a dozen blokes would burst through the crowd in a loose scrum, with the hooker popping up when they reached the agitators, grabbing one in a headlock and legging it back to a convenient out of the way place where a proper good kicking and general beasting would take place. When the perpetrator was sufficiently hors de combat and covered in blood etc, he would be dragged back round the corner and thrown into the crowd. The protesting crowd would very quickly look at the damage and work out they didn't want some of that and would remember they had to get some shopping for the wife or whatever and it would all be over just like that. It may seem a bit brutal for the agitator (well, if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined!) but the majority of the protestors would go home unharmed, having got their point across.
Another source of frustration is the general acceptance that we, of my generation, were all incorrigible racists. Yet, during my initial period of Army training, the barrack room next to ours was for a course of Commonwealth students. I don't remember all their details now but I remember very well the Sikh bloke, occupying the bed space next to a couple of member of the Pakistani Signals, a couple of Gurkhas and a couple of Jordanians. Only the British Army would put Indians and Pakistanis in the same room! And we all got on. I remember the Sikh bloke trying to teach me the intricacies of winding up and forming his best turban, ready for parades. (not something to be done on a daily basis!).
We had a lad on my course, whose mum was of Indonesian origin. He had brown skin and soon got the nickname "10:30". When I asked him why that name, he told me it was because he "wasn't quite midnight"! And we had a contingent of Fijians. Good lads all
And I never, in all my years, have seen a sign saying "No Blacks, No Irish" etc. So, it strikes me that this racism of which my generation are constantly tarred, may have been a regional thing. I don't deny it existed and I don't deny it exists now and say it has no place in civilised society. And I further would say "I bet there's a bit of teeth gnashing and wailing going on in front of some computer screens right now!
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:12
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Abraham had slaves so all Abrahamic peoples are presumably tainted by slavery.
Native pre-Colombian Americans used slaves so they are not innocent.
Africans used slaves throughout their history.
Japanese and Chinese slave trade goes back to pre-history.
I’m not aware of any innocent peoples.

Perhaps we should be more worried about the modern-day slavery on our streets all over the world today than trying to eradicate something that happened generations ago.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:23
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beamer View Post
And now I have just heard that the Mayor of London wants a root and branch review of all statues in the Capital. Bye bye Nelson, Churchill, Harris, Monty, Wellington, Queen Victoria et al...................
Anybody fancy reading what the man really said?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52977088
Yes, it is BBC and yes, it is a balanced view.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:29
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
And I never, in all my years, have seen a sign saying "No Blacks, No Irish" etc. So, it strikes me that this racism of which my generation are constantly tarred, may have been a regional thing. I don't deny it existed and I don't deny it exists now and say it has no place in civilised society.
My limited experience was that racism wasn't something I was aware of until I went to live in West London, just off the Uxbridge Road in Shepherds Bush. That place was territorial, there was a defined West Indian area, another defined Irish area and then further west along the Uxbridge road it turned Asian. My theory is that some of the racism from the white population was a reaction to the formation of what amounted to ghettos in that area. Moving there from having lived in the countryside all my life until then was a heck of a culture shock. The thing I couldn't get my head around was what on earth caused people to hate other people, just because they came from somewhere else, it just didn't seem to make sense to me at that time.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:40
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
My limited experience was that racism wasn't something I was aware of until I went to live in West London, just off the Uxbridge Road in Shepherds Bush. That place was territorial, there was a defined West Indian area, another defined Irish area and then further west along the Uxbridge road it turned Asian. My theory is that some of the racism from the white population was a reaction to the formation of what amounted to ghettos in that area. Moving there from having lived in the countryside all my life until then was a heck of a culture shock. The thing I couldn't get my head around was what on earth caused people to hate other people, just because they came from somewhere else, it just didn't seem to make sense to me at that time.
I attended a TED talk in Oxford a few years back in which a mathematician explained that even the most marginal preference to live amongst your own racial group would result in ghettoisation within a generation or so.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 13:40
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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And now Parliament has held a minuteís silence for a drug dealing armed robber. You really couldnít make this stuff up.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 14:09
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
I do not think most people outside the US underestimate the reverence for the flag. But they are astonished by it. When more reverence is demanded for the symbol than for the concept it was meant to represent, you have a real problem.

We stupidly thought the Stars and Stripes represented your much vaunted 'freedoms', especially the freedom to express an opinion. We are aghast to see that a piece of cloth is treated as inviolate and used to limit your freedom. I was horrified to see the witch-hunt against a man who peacefully and respectfully expressed a deeply held opinion by kneeling for the national anthem. If Americans didn't fight and die on the beaches of Normandy for his right to do that, then what was it all for ?

And I agree, it's pathetic for the NFL to suddenly declare that they were wrong to object because the subject of Kaepernick's protest is suddenly trendy. It's not about the subject, it's about his right to express an opinion.
The guy who sat on the bench wearing pig socks? The guy who sat on the bench until a National Guardsman walked over to him and suggested he take a knee vs sitting on the bench? Zero respect.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 14:46
  #169 (permalink)  
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The Left's Statue Hypocrisy.

https://order-order.com/2020/06/09/l...tue-hypocrisy/
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 14:47
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
In my opinion what Khan is proposing is virtue signalling at its worse, to remove large parts of UK history to appease another minority group, which if followed through will make no difference at all to the extent or otherwise of racism in the UK, in fact it is more likely to increase racism as a greater number of people will have had enough of those in power giving in to minority groups who are not all supporting Ďthe causeí stated, especially when coupled with the lack of social distancing at this moment in time and vandalism/violence becoming more prevalent during these peaceful demonstrations.

No doubt that opinion will label me a racist as well, as any perceived criticism/opinion of the actions carried out by these groups will only add to those accusations, I do agree with the sentiments of the protests as what is happening is a disgrace in the modern world, but like ER and others the manner in which they try to change things is actually detrimental to their causes, but they just do not seem to get the point that alienating the greater part of a population will never garner enough support to make the real changes that are needed to make a difference.
I agree with you, until they decide to fight peacefully against the wrongs they see as being foisted upon themselves today and not the wrongs they see from the past, wrongs they can never change no matter how much they try, then all they will come across as to the general public are a bunch of vandals that are disrespecting our war dead, who incidentally are from all races, colour and creeds, and in that alienating both their cause and probably their chances of any meaningful reform.....

Even in my life time I have seen changes as to how race is percieved, gone are the TV shows the likes of the black and white minstral show, love they neighbour and Till death us do part, thankfully never to return.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 14:55
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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This might come as a shock, and maybe it was the exception, but last year, we employed a live in carer from an agency to look after elderly MIL.
The young woman that was sent had a Kenyan father and Saudi Arabian mother. She was excellent - very eloquent and erudite. She was doing the job as a stop gap until she completed her studies. I actually asked her if she had ever experienced racial abuse particularly as she was coming from London to live in a very white, middle class area. She told me she had never once had any issues with her colour or her religion. She went on to tell me her social group were made up of a variety of ethnicities and that they regularly took the mick out of each other. She said that they used to tease their Hindu friends that the red tika on their foreheads was their ignition switch, that the Hindus used to tease the West Indians that they were all lazy and sat about smoking weed, and the West Indians used to pull the legs of the Muslims about pork and the Muslims used to joke about the fact that their white friends spent all their time p*****d.

I was actually pretty shocked as I would have thought about the potential offence that this might have caused.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 15:07
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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I was actually pretty shocked as I would have thought about the potential offence that this might have caused.
Ah but only if a third party fancied being shocked on their behalf.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 15:31
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Initial reaction is to suggest that the described type of leadership is better than the total absence of leadership which we now have. Then it occurred to me that perhaps the best way to deal with the Barbarians at the gate is simply to ignore them and this might be the police/government tactic. These actions invariably feed off public and police reaction. If they are starved of this, the likelihood is that they will become bored and turn their limited attention to something else; back to themselves maybe.
I'm not sure of that, GQ. When all the world and his dog are watching civil disobedience events like that on the media, it's difficult not to get enraged, especially when the police are sometimes disproportionately heavy-handed with less harmful citizens. To my way of thinking, these rabble-rousing elements should have been afraid of the results beforehand and not pushed their agenda. These days there appears to be very little respect for the law in certain quarters and I'd be quite happy to see a firm approach as is - or was - used on the Continent. The German, Spanish, Dutch and French enforcement squads weren't afraid of quelling the brush fire troubles that seem to be all too common these days. A blue-dyed water cannon blast drenching would be a good start. I'm all for peaceful demonstrations but when the ringleaders wield more apparent power than the police, then it's time to come down hard.
I'll no doubt be shouted down for this opinion by those of softer dispositions. I doubt they'll be speaking for the majority.
By the way, if anyone wants to see effective policing almost a hundred years ago, Wiki search PC George Scorey.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 16:09
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Almost a quarter of the Slaves brought from Africa died on the journey. Died in unspeakable and disgusting conditions..
I suppose it might be inconvenient to remember that a substantial number of these poor people were rounded up, corralled and sold to the traders by their very own kind.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 16:31
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stevef View Post
A blue-dyed water cannon blast drenching would be a good start. I'm all for peaceful demonstrations but when the ringleaders wield more apparent power than the police, then it's time to come down hard.
I'll no doubt be shouted down for this opinion by those of softer dispositions. I doubt they'll be speaking for the majority.
By the way, if anyone wants to see effective policing almost a hundred years ago, Wiki search PC George Scorey.
Well, there's no dearth of "soft disposition" on PPRuNe, but I'm not shouting you down, stevef. These so-called demonstrations, inter alia, serve to expose the folly of Theresa May and Sadiq Khan when, in seeking to parade and burnish their "woke" credentials, at substantial cost to the public purse sold the London water cannons. The purchase of these was one of Boris's better ideas and the more rational will regret their departure.

Edited to convey that it is the departure of the water cannons that will be regretted - not the egress of May and Khan..
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 17:15
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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It is clear from TV documentary programmes, over a period of time, that police can deploy in a combative and deadly manner. This is evident in situations involving suspected drug dealing busts and incidents involving confrontation with armed criminals.

Thus I understand that very robust police tactics are currently available and that force could be expanded; looks like the political will is not there.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 17:33
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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I never understood why the water cannons were just left idle and then flogged off. There's evidence that shows that making people very wet defuses violent protests pretty quickly, and the risk of causing injury has to be a lot lower than some of the alternatives, like baton rounds or just injuries caused by shoving and riot shields. Water cannon also have the advantage of not placing police officers in close contact with rioters, so reducing the risk of them getting hurt.

It doesn't need very high water pressure to calm down and dissipate a mob, as many of them will just be people swept up in the heat of the moment, rather than being determined rioters intent of serious action. In some ways I'd guess that water cannon act a bit like other ways of separating out the hardened agitators from the sheep-like masses, but without the need for snatch squads to be put at risk in hauling out the minority that create most of the problems. I suspect that the majority involved in the recent mindless acts never intended to behave as they did when they decided to join the protests, they will have been fired up by those who had other agendas, probably just the usual anarchists that tend to hijack any cause if it gives them a chance for a bit of mindless vandalism.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 17:34
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Well, there's no dearth of "soft disposition" on PPRuNe, but I'm not shouting you down, stevef. These so-called demonstrations, inter alia, serve to expose the folly of Theresa May and Sadiq Khan when, in seeking to parade and burnish their "woke" credentials, at substantial cost to the public purse sold the London water cannons. The purchase of these was one of Boris's better ideas and the more rational will regret their departure.

Edited to convey that it is the departure of the water cannons that will be regretted - not the egress of May and Khan..
Something I suggested earlier, the advantage of dye is when the lovies split up and head home they can be lifted off the buses, trains or street quietly without any fuss, it’s pretty difficult to explain why you look like Papa Smurf if you were not involved, and at worst if you don’t catch them, they will need a wardrobe change.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 17:45
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rifruffian View Post
It is clear from TV documentary programmes, over a period of time, that police can deploy in a combative and deadly manner. This is evident in situations involving suspected drug dealing busts and incidents involving confrontation with armed criminals.

Thus I understand that very robust police tactics are currently available and that force could be expanded; looks like the political will is not there.
If the political will was there and the police were to employ those robust tactics they would be playing to the crowd, so to speak, the outcry about heavy handed tactics would be loud and voluble at the forefront of this forum and across the media, the government and police are stuck between a rock and a hard place over a minority, again, and unfortunately what the majority might accept as a suitable response does not cut any ice under the current situation, so they are stuck with doing the bare minimum to avoid upsetting the protesters and providing them with the very thing they are protesting about and if people think it is ugly now then just wait and see what would then happen in retaliation if those robust tactics were actually exercised.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 17:52
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Exrigger you have very well highlighted the void of leadership in our nation. I do not think that any 'career politician' could be the right person for the job right now.
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