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Black lives don’t really matter London March.

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Black lives don’t really matter London March.

Old 14th Jun 2020, 16:28
  #401 (permalink)  
 
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Has anyone tried to build up the list of micro-privileges that being white has given them?

Mine are -
0 . I am white.
1.Parents born v poor in S London slums that were bombed by Mr Hitler, especially V1s and V2s. (due to manipulation of spy data by MI5), and determined that their children will get an education.
2.Parents applied to a skool that was far too good for the likes of me.
3. I played rugby, and just when I thought I was doing OK, a member of the England team - a prop - flattened me. Mustn't get ideas above my station.
4. Uncle was one of the folk left behind at Dunkirk to fight off the Germans attacking Dunkirk. Spent whole war in prison camps. Dad in the forces out of UK from 39 to 46.
5. Being an occasional arrogant turd is not too difficult.
6. Received grants to go to Uni, and to do PG.
7. My ancestors were immigrants, and probably slaves.

After that, I worked hard. But in a white skin.

I look to compare myself to non-whites, but they didn't arrive in big numbers until the 50s.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 16:41
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
I suspect both the right wing soccer fan types, and the Grauniad reading Trots and Pinkoes all think that they, as individuals, are terribly clever. And thoughtful.

Now we know, they are just a mob. A Mob incited by the extremely enlightened Socialist Workers Party.

No doubt all the Trot actresses will be out supporting them next week. Once they have bought their new outfit.
You guys really need to get out more. The SWP hardly exists any more and to brand everyone slightly left of centre as “trots” betrays a lot of ignorance about the real processes going on in the world.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 16:47
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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BV - don't fret yourself over it - you have more than enough like-minded 'Ingerland' ers to support your views. Coping with colour television must be hell on wheels!
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 17:14
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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AO - Interesting biography. Interesting comparison.
2. Won scholarship to public school, hated all but English lessons.
3. Useless and uninterested in unnecessary heavy breathing activities.
4. Dad was overseas in the Army from '36 to '44.
5. Nothing to be arrogant about but I do NOT do meek and mild anymore!
6. No grants for anything, ever. Paid my way AND paid all my taxes!
7. Strictly Celtic, genuine British stock (dark hair (was!) dark eyes) not one of the blond 'pretend' Brits.
Worked full-time from leaving school to enforced retirement after 50 years.
I do not, normally compare myself to anyone else - however, individualism requires a strong mind and self belief.
For those who relish the herd (or should that be flock?) present day society offers a range of values.
Odd how people turn out in life; moulded by others or thinking their way to a resolution?
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 17:37
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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Odd how people turn out in life; moulded by others or thinking their way to a resolution?
For the first half of our lives we are moulded by others, usually in our struggle to find safety in a world of perceived threats. In the second half of life we either reinforce our perception of threats or try to think our way to resolution. An honest assessment of resolution usually needs to start with ourselves.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 18:21
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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CJ

From what I can decipher it would appear you believe you possess some form of moral superiority. Added to which, I must add that I haven’t the first clue what you are on about so I shall leave it at that.

BV
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 19:11
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
From what I can decipher it would appear you believe you possess some form of moral superiority. Added to which, I must add that I haven’t the first clue what you are on about so I shall leave it at that.

BV

Glad it's not just me!

Trying to decipher the intent and meaning behind many of these garbled posts seems to be near-impossible. Having lived in West Cornwall for ~16 years, with all my family still living down there, I thought I'd be reasonably able to try to decode any subtle linguistic nuances that may help with my comprehension, but sadly it seems not to have been much help.

I'm reminded of a boss from years ago, bloke called Williams. He was, according to his own, often loudly expressed opinion, a "true Cornish man". He was the singularly most obnoxious individual I've ever had the misfortune to encounter, someone who progressed through life largely by the assistance of his fellow lodge members. Two or three of us were so hacked off at his constant sniping, that we took the time to research his family background. My great aunt was still alive, and she was a keen family historian (my great grandfather was minister at Sithney chapel at the time she was born, in 1898). We were all interested to find that this Williams bloke was a second generation "Cornish man", his father having moved to Cornwall from South Wales to work down South Crofty mine, and then at Holmans. It turned out the bloke was less Cornish than I am, and I'm largely Irish . . .
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 02:51
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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I see the French have the right idea, no statue will be removed, rightly or wrongly it is our history...end off

It should have happened here, once you remove one youre screwed, a line needed to be drawn in the sand and arrests made with harsh sentences.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 06:21
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 09:15
  #410 (permalink)  
 
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Definitely worth a read, taken from the Spectator, author Claire Fox.

Who needs statue topplers when the state will do it for you? Some bright spark in authority has decided the way to defend the statues on Parliament Square is to board them up. Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has taken his lead from protesters and started a national trend, with councils setting up posses of the unelected to assess whose statues might survive the great 2020 cull. Meanwhile, the BBC, so terrified of bad PR, has pre-emptively removed from its i-player an iconic episode of Fawlty Towers, written as a satire on Little Englander mentality. Own goals all round.

What started out as a genuine, furious, international reaction to the brutal killing of George Floyd seems to be turning into an institutional nervous breakdown. Corporates and elite institutions are scurrying to demonstrate their adherence to #BlackLivesMatters, in the process turning any possibility of a progressive moment into a deadening, bureaucratic, tick-boxing exercise – with undertones of McCarthyism aimed at anyone who does not nod along.

Events in Minneapolis might have initially seemed like a historic lightning rod that could launch a deeper discussion about how to achieve social change, uniting us all in fighting discrimination. Instead, it is fast turning into a quagmire of censorious intolerance. If you want to initiate a broader debate about racism, is it really healthy to create an atmosphere in which it is not only statues that are being toppled but a range of cultural artefacts, TV series, celebrities, columnists and controversial broadcasters?

In what has been a whirlwind few weeks, an overall atmosphere of banning, covering up and cowering has flattened not just historic specificity but all nuance, depth and complexity in debate. When Lockdown started, I tweeted in reply to a friend that at last I would have enough time to watch Gone with the Wind again. Earlier this week I momentarily considered if I should retrieve and delete the quote in case anyone thought… well… we all know how that might be interpreted in today’s febrile climate. Today, as vast swathes of British comedies are cancelled, I realised that millions of people would need to delete tweets, purge their DVD collection or wipe their i-Player viewing lists if they applied the same logic. But my original instinct of panic speaks to a powerful mood at the moment – say the wrong thing and you might well be branded a bigot and cancelled.

Would it matter that my mother loved the film because she associated Scarlett O’Hara with a depiction of an awesome, feisty, independent Irish woman? What about the fact that, after watching it as a teenager, I became fascinated by the American civil war and for the first time thought about the horrors of slavery? I went on to read the novel and explore the history of the period, discovering the writings of Thomas Paine and Frederick Douglass. In a bizarre way, Gone with the Wind was just one part of my education that developed into a life-long, passionate commitment to fighting racism. In other words, like everything, it’s always more complicated.

Today’s simplistic climate however is not conducive to a complex discourse on historic slavery, contemporary injustice or indeed much else. People conclude that if the famous can be dragged through the virtual public square and unceremoniously dumped, the fate of any random tweeter or the average man or woman on the street can seem even more precarious. Fear of such humiliation means that far too many become nervous about speaking – not because we are all one tweet away from being racist, but because we are warned that there are only a narrow, prescribed set of views one dare put forward without crossing some invisible line of offence. You learn lessons quickly – best not to ask if all lives matter, to query whether police brutality in the UK is really on a par with the militarised, armed US force, to object to going on mass demonstrations mid-pandemic – because for committing such thought crimes, prominent people have been cancelled.

But staying schtum is not an option either. Quotes such as ‘white silence is violence’ and ‘if you’re silent, you’re part of the problem’ are splattered across social media and hand-made placards alike. This is not a call to develop arguments that might inspire our peers to speak out, but a demand that unless you sign up to vocal activism NOW, you will be damned as a somehow complicit in racist brutality. On the Black Live Matters (#BLM) demo I attended last weekend, some speeches merited cheers, others far less so – but the pressure for us all to whoop regardless was reinforced by the regular chants of ‘silence is violence’.
In what has been a whirlwind few weeks, an overall atmosphere of banning, covering up and cowering has flattened not just historic specificity but all nuance, depth and complexity in debateThe consequences of this is that discussion about serious issues like racism are reduced to little more than a cut and paste formulaic script; passively demonstrating you are on the right side via ubiquitous hashtags and symbols. I don’t doubt the initial sincerity of angry protestors – many of those young people feel viscerally that they are powerless and marginalised. #BLM became the banner behind which they could express their frustration and rage. However, it has increasingly morphed into a problematic free-floating, top-down imposition, adopted by mainstream organisations and often used to coerce enforced activism.

When the music industry announced #blackouttuesday on 2 June, people I know who work for major arts institutions were reprimanded and berated if they failed to post a black square onto their Instagram feed. When one objected to being told by her manager what to post on her social media, she was shamed in front of colleagues for not understanding the nature of ‘institutional racism’. With less publicity, June 10 was declared as #ShutDownSTEM day. I know this because an email to Nature magazine was met by an out-of-office reply declaring that a #strike4blacklives had been called (no debate, vote or any of that messy democracy business). The website statement declares – amongst other things – that ‘unless you engage directly with eliminating racism, you are perpetuating it’.

This statement is not designed to win hearts and minds to the cause of anti-racism. Instead, its purpose is to emphasise that if you’re white, you are guilty of racism whether you know it or not: ‘Those of us who are not Black, particularly those of us who are white, play a key role in perpetuating systemic racism.’ This corrosive trend of racialising identity is now de rigeur. Those who politically theorise the artificial concept of ‘whiteness’ infer that anyone who has white skin cannot escape their unconscious bias. If you object, you are accused of failing to come to terms with your white privilege. For all its radical posturing, this is a toxic trap that does not allow us to transcend racial difference and instead emphasises it as a source of tension.

Recently I was accused of whitesplaining for engaging in a perfectly civil disagreement with a fellow newspaper reviewer about events in Bristol, when the statue of slave trader Edward Colston was pulled from its plinth. My fellow panellist is black, I am white - we were there as equals. Yet somehow that was supposed to fatalistically shape both our outlooks. Neither of us credited with agency. The charge of whitesplaining insulted us both.

These identity tropes are all too familiar to those of us who have documented the way an illiberal cancel culture, under the guise of defending particular identities, has consumed universities over the last five years or so. More recently its norms have seeped into the pores and fabric of media and cultural institutions. But for millions of ordinary people, unfamiliar with the mores of identitarian divisiveness, watching the culture wars burst open the Lockdown and take over the popular domain, can feel shocking, alienating and infuriating.

For example, unless you followed the #RhodesMustFall movement that preoccupied Oxford University a few years ago – and has morphed into a wider ‘decolonise the curriculum’ campaign across higher education – you might be bewildered by the rush to depose inanimate objects as though they are actively playing a role in the treatment of black people today. Should you object, expect to be labelled as a part of a right-wing backlash, keen to wallow in historic ignorance. Those celebrating this spate of iconoclasm pose it as mass history lesson and boast that the nation will at last learn the truth of Britain’s bloody past.

The problem with these self-flattering educational claims? They are too often rooted in student activism rather than a genuine debate about history. As a consequence, it is assumed that those unfamiliar with the discourse of dead-white males need to be schooled and taught a lesson. Those not au fait with the preoccupations of privileged Oxford students are now being lectured to by their educational betters.

And what about the NHS workers and patients at Guy’s hospital? Do they need a right-on army to correct their historic amnesia? After all, they seem to have been oblivious to the fact that Thomas Guy, who founded the hospital in the 18th century, had shares in the South Sea Company which was involved in the slave trade? Maybe we should applaud the bosses of the NHS foundation trust, who’ve said they will remove Guy’s statue in response to #BLM protests, and thank them for raising the consciousness of their employees.

When I talk of ‘ordinary people’ looking on aghast at these events, some will believe that I’m using a code for the white working class. But don’t assume too much. Many from ethnic minorities feel at odds with recent events. One Ghanaian acquaintance complained to me that she is fed up of being BAME-d: ‘I don’t see myself as BAME. I am a British citizen and a proud Ghanaian, and I hate it that now my neighbours assume I want to ban all these comedy programmes when I love them.’ What of those minorities who are horrified and angry that the founder of the international scout movement, which has been so popular in many Commonwealth countries, is now being impugned? What of their anger that Baden Powell’s statue should be removed in their name? Are they – like Priti Patel – the wrong kind of BAME? What is going on here? Surely statue-toppling is far removed from any real-life grievances of black people in the UK, let alone the tragedy of George Floyd’s killing.

But, of course, it would be disingenuous not to admit that the majority of those who feel at odds with this moment, and indeed feel resentful that they are somehow being held culpable for gross historic attitudes, are white. Many white people sense that they are being blamed for the sins of white slave owners and imperialists merely through some lineage of ethnicity. Activists’ constant stress on white privilege can lead to an unhealthy defensive posture of white victimhood. This kind of victim politics, itself a form of identity politics, can be exploited by racists keen to stir up trouble.

The good people of Poole standing guard over a much-loved local Baden Powell statue, are not doing so because they are white or mobilised by opportunists such as notorious EDL founder Tommy Robinson, who has adopted statue protection as his latest persona, but because they are decent people who happen to believe that tearing down the public square might at least merit some democratic debate. In the seeming absence of any political leadership in this situation (the Cabinet are well and truly staying at home) and with the police abdicating all responsibility, it is inevitable and even honourable that people feel the need to take a stand.

What guarantees trouble is when complexity is dumped in favour of a simplistic story, whoever the story-teller is. Sadiq Khan lambasts ‘extreme far-right groups for hijacking this crucial cause'. Of course, a vacuum created by the near ubiquitous political quiescence to the dismantling of historic monuments will be filled by those keen to exploit the situation for their own ends. The crowd gathered in Central London on Saturday no doubt comprises a fair few people (but not all) with dodgy views. However, to brand everyone who is horrified at the vandalism of the Churchill statue, or who simply want to protect the cenotaph from desecration as far right, is a catastrophic error of judgement. Over simplifying is always a problem. Is it legitimate to suggest that everyone who attends events under the banner BLM have signed up to the frankly immature, crass anti-capitalist demands of official #BLM? Should we call all those who in good faith campaign to remove statues of slavers as a thuggish army of nihilistic cultural warriors? Of course not. Sadiq Khan would be the first to suggest such simplistic generalisations are unfair. However, it is now fashionable to have a hands-off approach to critiquing any activity or attitudes that claim to be motivated by anti-racism. In contrast, there is far less caution in lumping anyone: who expresses disquiet at the hi-jacking of history; who complains about the censoring of culture; who rejects the ‘white privilege’ narrative; into a generalised pot of hate-fuelled bigotry. A warning to those in the media, in #BLM and even the police: insisting on the mischaracterisation of all these people as far right racists can only exacerbate tensions and polarise society.

But it is also up to the public to avoid being dragged into an over-simplistic ‘whose side are you on?’ row. As citizens we need to try and untangle this messy political situation in as positive a way as possible. We must resist letting others label us through our ethnicity and insist on a humanist, universal, collective fight against racism and injustice. At the very least, we should refuse any narrative that tells us what we should think, read or watch. On that, the masses have spoken. Inevitably – because censorship works like this – Gone with the Wind has hit number one in the Amazon charts. This is not proof of an outbreak of pro-slavery enthusiasm but is an act of defiance against censorship. And you never know, as new generations watch the film and find out what the fuss is about, maybe they too will end up reading Life and Times of Frederick Douglass about his journey from slavery to becoming national leader of the abolitionist movement. They might realise – as Douglass did – that ‘to suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker’. That’s one lesson from history we should all get behind.

WRITTEN BY

Claire Fox



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Old 15th Jun 2020, 09:51
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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HQ

That pretty much covers everything I said several posts ago in a much more comprehensive and eloquent manner.

Basically, and nobody could or should disagree, she is absolutely right.

In simple terms, two wrongs don’t make a right.

BV
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 09:59
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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BV and VP - you concern yourselves overmuch.!
Even if I supposed either of you were open to reasoned argument, my posts would still be a simple personal expression of a personal viewpoint - no more, no less and certainly not a dialectic. You post your views, modifying them as you see fit and that, as I understand it, is the nature of views expressed in a forum. That the flavour of your arguments leaves an occasional bad taste is 'the nature of the beast'. One might have supposed ( in one case ,at least.) that the advantages of tertiary education would have shone through in more obvious fashion but, perhaps, it is a little over-rated.
Individual posters are, generally, easy to spot, so avoiding mine will prove to be simple for you. I try to read everyone's posts in the forums of interest - especially those I disagree with - there is always the possibility of learning something new and, thus, modifying a view. This does not appeal to everybody, of course.
"Moral superiority" ??? fascinating thought; nobody I know - but, then, I don't 'do' any form of superiority - in my book we're all equal!
"most obnoxious individual" ??? Ah, now we're getting somewhere - under certain circumstances and with certain individuals, I certainly hope so, I really do!
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 10:08
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
That pretty much covers everything I said several posts ago in a much more comprehensive and eloquent manner.

Basically, and nobody could or should disagree, she is absolutely right.

In simple terms, two wrongs don’t make a right.

BV
Oh the irony.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 10:40
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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I think the reaction of JB and the internet in general says it all. Last week you could not open up the papers, social media or watch the news without seeing and hearing vitriol against the BLM 'protestors'. The anger, quite rightly, directed at the small number of idiots attacking the police, press and monuments overflowed from every direction. The usual suspects had a field day blaming the entire BLM movement for causing unrest.

This morning, after a weekend of peaceful BLM protests, a small number of white extremists, p1ssing on police memorials, nazi saluting while claiming to protect war memorials, drunk (dare I say) football hooligans goading the police and causing more strife....next to nothing. It's all gone quiet. Hardly any fb posts attacking these white supremacists. The JB elite are now discussing freedom of speech and history. Very few frothing at the mouth over the images and videos of the nasty, aggressive animals who turned up, specifically to cause trouble armed with a bag full of cheap lager and Union Jack tattoos.

And you think we don't have a problem in the UK?
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 10:46
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CJ and Turin

CJ

Your posts still mostly mystify me but c’est la vie. My major beef though is that you seemingly fail to grasp that you are as much a part of the problem as anybody else.

You are entrenched in your views and despite claiming to enjoy reading opposing viewpoints you cannot, or will not, see that you might not possibly be right all the time.

Turin

Well done for todays demonstration of how to seek out and find offense wherever it can be found.

I believe the article is a very honest appraisal of the fact that EVERYONE needs to pitch in to solve the problems. Getting white people alone to prostrate themselves at the altar of correctness will solve nothing. It’ll just lead to more violence.

Turin, for the record I think the ‘thugs’ from both sides are contemptuous and deserve everything that is thrown at them. The only rays of light so far have been people cleaning war memorials and the gentleman who carried the injured protester out of the crowd.

Anyway, we all have our views and much like most threads on here this is just another example of faceless people making pointless repeat accusations and failing to comprehend anyone else’s viewpoints so I’m out.

I am sure I am every bit as guilty as everyone else of failing to truly understand opposing viewpoints and if you have already decided I am wrong that is because I have either failed to articulate my arguments correctly or you just don’t care to listen.

Either way, I shall leave you to make continued circular patterns around the buoy of your choice. I shall no longer be joining you.

BV
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 10:53
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That pretty much covers everything I said several posts ago in a much more comprehensive and eloquent manner.
Eats shoots and leaves - author Lynne Truss . Available in good bookshops everywhere.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 11:00
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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BV. I didn't find offence at the article. I just pointed out that you told everyone that they cannot and should not disagree with it, which is exactly the point the article was making, I can disagree with it if I want, freedom of speech was at the crux of the article. I am expressing a freedom of speech.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 11:28
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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I think we’ll find that once the weather gets colder and wetter, the urge and enthusiasm to protest will possibly wane slightly...
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 11:48
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Whites Were Slaves In North Africa Before Blacks Were Slaves In The New World



I listened to a black woman on BBC radio telling the host that whites in Britain have no right to comment on slavery because they had never been enslaved. As usual the BBC seems to find only those with ignorance and bias to interview. I recalled reading some years ago about the Americans destroying the Barbary pirates in the early 1800’s (sometimes called Jefferson’s War) and it is mentioned in the lyrics of the US Marines anthem. Britain was also involved in combating slavery by the Ottomans in North Africa when the Royal and Dutch navies shelled Algiers in 1816. Most people wouldn't know that white European Christians and Jews were enslaved by the Barbary pirates from the early 1600s for about 200 years. They were employed for hard labour such as quarrying, road making and harbour construction. Thousands died through hard labour and disease so the numbers required regular topping up. This lead to the pirates seizing the crews of merchant ships using the Mediterranean and eastern Atlantic and was amongst many good reasons for destroying the Barbarys . But let's concentrate on the white slaves and hence I looked it up.



https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...the-new-world/



Please forward the link to ensure that more people are made aware of the truth and do so before some virtue signalling organisation removes it from the internet.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 12:08
  #420 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Georg1na View Post
Whites Were Slaves In North Africa Before Blacks Were Slaves In The New World

I listened to a black woman on BBC radio telling the host that whites in Britain have no right to comment on slavery because they had never been enslaved. As usual the BBC seems to find only those with ignorance and bias to interview. I recalled reading some years ago about the Americans destroying the Barbary pirates in the early 1800’s (sometimes called Jefferson’s War) and it is mentioned in the lyrics of the US Marines anthem. Britain was also involved in combating slavery by the Ottomans in North Africa when the Royal and Dutch navies shelled Algiers in 1816. Most people wouldn't know that white European Christians and Jews were enslaved by the Barbary pirates from the early 1600s for about 200 years. They were employed for hard labour such as quarrying, road making and harbour construction. Thousands died through hard labour and disease so the numbers required regular topping up. This lead to the pirates seizing the crews of merchant ships using the Mediterranean and eastern Atlantic and was amongst many good reasons for destroying the Barbarys . But let's concentrate on the white slaves and hence I looked it up.

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...the-new-world/

Please forward the link to ensure that more people are made aware of the truth and do so before some virtue signalling organisation removes it from the internet.
Mentioned only a day or so ago, in this post in this thread: Black lives don’t really matter London March.

Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The Facebook link given by rogerg above (this one: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...141794&__cft__[0 ) is worth a read. If the data quoted are correct, then some things seem quite remarkable, and not common knowledge. This link is to the history of white people being captured and enslaved by African "white slavers" between the 16th to 18th centuries, for example: https://www.historyextra.com/period/...ves-in-africa/

Wherever you look in human history, people have been enslaved by other people. There's nothing particularly unique about the African slave trade to the Americas and West Indies (that was started by the Portuguese), if anything it's just a small part of the human history of enslaving others. That doesn't make it in anyway right, but if we're going to rightly condemn slavery then we need to do it fairly and equally, and include all the people in the world that have ever been subjected to it, not just one group that are making a lot more noise than others right now.

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