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Black lives donít really matter London March.

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Black lives donít really matter London March.

Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Proone,

ďHe used to be a Washington DC resident, and he was adamant that that was simply not the case there. He told me of an occasion in DC where he was taking a short cut through a quite affluent neighbourhood, and he was stopped by a Police patrol car, asked where he was going, and on replying that he was simply taking a short cut, was told in no uncertain manner that he was not welcome in these local streets and that they could not be responsible for what may happen to him if he kept on heading in the direction he was. He was told to turn round and go back the way he cameĒ.

Back the late 70ís I had the same experience, off the plane, rental car, driving to one of the hotels downtown. Night time, lost. Ended up looking at the dome on top of Congress, all lit up, less I/2 a mile or so away, me up on a bluff, with no way down that I could find.
Pulled over, interior light on, trying to find out where I was. A police car pulls up alongside, black female cop.
She asks me am I lost, yes, where are going, hotel whatever, ok follow me, then said something that I never expected to hear, not here, within a mile of the seat of Government of the most powerful nation in the world, ďyou arenít safe hereĒ.

My first thought was if Iím not safe here, what the hell!
Never forgot that.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:30
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I have a comment:

Having lived for long periods in several US states, several provinces of South Africa, and travelled most of the western world, I consider the original source of racial tension to be almost primeval. While this hatred has existed between all races and tribes since the beginning of time, each violation of a group's rights continually reinforce this level of tension. It is a measure of society's resolve that as a civilisation, we continue to fail to throw off stereotypes which are ingrained at the base level of the psyche.

IG
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:48
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fltlt View Post
Unfortunately PPRuNe the mountain has always been high, we tend to react only to major, unfortunately revolting actions, a little progress is made, money is spread around to ease the pain. then it all just fades into the background noise until the next time, rinse and repeat.
How does one focus the minds of those currently expressing outrage, demanding something be done, for the long term, to actually remain engaged.
I have no idea.
My mother was an Italian immigrant in France when it was not fashionable, my father at one stage had 400 employees and 90 per cent of them were North or West Africans, Spanish, Portugese or other and I was brought up respecting all people, regardless of their skin colour, social position or condition, mental or physical appearance.... I am very proud of my partner of 45 years and our two children for the way they conduct their life in the same altruist and fair way my parents taught their children. May be it is as simple as that! Lets educate our kids in a manner a bit less self centered and more considerate and just. I know, sounds tree hugging peace and love but it worked fine for me. Stay safe all.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:50
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
VP959,

Sorry but I just have to take issue with the latter part of your otherwise thoughtful and interesting post. I am not sure of the period that you are discussing in the UK but it would appear to be the early to mid sixties, as the sort of notices and discrimination you mention has long been made illegal. The more informal racism of being ignored in a queue and not served tea are however far more likely to have occurred quite a bit later.
I live and work in London and New York, (well up until about mid March I did!) and have to take issue with your rose tinted spectacles view of the Big Apple. I love New York almost as much as I love London, but I have to say quite categorically that there is nowhere in the US that is anywhere near as successfully culturally and racially diverse as London, nowhere.
You will still see racial segregation everywhere in the US, including New York. It is a country that was racially segregated by law as recently as 1968, and there are still areas where a black person treads in fear.

I have quite a few black US friends who have either settled in or visited the UK, and they are all so overwhelmed by the fact that the UK in general, and London in particular, is so racially diverse and it just never seems to be a problem. I have one friend in particular, a black guy, an ex US Marine whom I had to sit down with on his second day in London when he asked me where were the areas of London that, as a black guy, he should avoid? He was amazed, and initially disbelieving, when I told him that there was nowhere in London where he should fear to tread. He was later totally amazed by the fact that he could indeed wander around London and not have to worry about where he walked. He used to be a Washington DC resident, and he was adamant that that was simply not the case there. He told me of an occasion in DC where he was taking a short cut through a quite affluent neighbourhood, and he was stopped by a Police patrol car, asked where he was going, and on replying that he was simply taking a short cut, was told in no uncertain manner that he was not welcome in these local streets and that they could not be responsible for what may happen to him if he kept on heading in the direction he was. He was told to turn round and go back the way he came. Now that sounds totally fanciful until you recall the white woman calling the Police after a Black guy told her to put her dog on a lead, or the white executive who called the Police on a group of black guys using his corporate gym, or the black unarmed woman shot dead through the dooor of her car by a white Policeman.

You just do not see the mix of black and white that is so common in the UK, and particulaly in London, in the US. It is a much more segregated society and that is both an awful shame, and the reason for the whole Black Lives matter protest movement.

I have been in or around the Law for 44 years after leaving the RAF, and while there was a huge systemic problem in the Met Police for a long time until it was rooted out following the Stephen Lawrence case, it is SO much better now but equally there is still an awfully long way to go until we have a truly equal society.
I agree that racism in the USA is different from in the UK. Much of it is driven by an incredibly wicked criminal justice system that locks people - especially black people - into a spiral of crime and jail. It was literally designed to provide slave labour after overt slavery became illegal. That is compounded by a poorly trained and militarized police force who expect every black man to try to kill them and to be a criminal. And that drives separation of cultures which makes it even harder.

Here's a random example of a random issue that illustrates the awfulness of the system - https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4...d-your-freedom


But I promise you that racism is a real daily thing in UK too. You would be surprised how often, simple ugly crude racism is evident. But it is often not overt, but not subtle and I see it every day. For a black person operating in a white world everything is that bit harder. Those blacks who excel and rise in the system, despite every single day being expected to fail by every white person they encounter, have worked so much harder that their white equivalent. And I really mean it is at literally every step, from buying a cup of coffee or booking into a hotel room, to presenting an idea in a business meeting, everything is that bit harder. I realised after a while that the thing is that it is engrained into the fibre of almost every white person to expect to be 'better', whatever the criterion, than every black person they come across. Unless its something that's it's 'safe' to allow a black to be better at like sprinting or jazz!!!!! And, no, I don't expect most white people to believe or understand that.

Last edited by double_barrel; 7th Jun 2020 at 08:45.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 19:57
  #25 (permalink)  
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:14
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Racism is racism, it's everywhere but in some countries more prevalent than others. I honestly believe that the UK is one of the most tolerant of multicultural countries. Yes, there are problems but not like in the USA. These riots/protests stem from the Minneapolis problem. It's an American situation, It's not a UK problem to the same extent as there, vis a vis the policing. It should be solved in the USA within their legal system. What is happening here is just rent a mob... and as for the social distancing problem... ignorance and arrogance. Mainly the youth. Here we go again .. labelling.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:26
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I cannot see any good argument to support deployment of horse-mounted police against rioters in the city setting.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:47
  #28 (permalink)  
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https://www.rand.org/content/dam/ran...ND_RR830z1.pdf

Assessing the value of mounted police units in the UK: Summary report

7. In specific instances where coercive crowd control is required, mounted police provide a unique capacity that does not have an obvious equivalent among other available police tools.

During the initial stages of the research, as well as during discussions, interviews and focus groups with police, it was regularly suggested that mounted police provide a specific and unique capacity in controlling crowds. Whether or not they have public engagement value in disorderly crowds, observations at the demonstration events indicated that where horses were required to intervene, their interventions generated compliance and restored (at least temporary) order in ways that might have created substantial disorder had they been done by foot officers or vehicles.

In simplest terms, event-goers are unlikely to risk an altercation with a horse, and the observations suggest (in conjunction with the findings from football fan focus groups) that this has something to do with their unpredictability and the potential consequences of being kicked or charged. Police horses thus provide a substantial deterrence and use of force capacity. They offer visibility above crowds and mounted officers are able to see and track individuals and instances of disorder that would not be visible to officers at ground level.

However, it is not clear (one way or the other) what effect their use of force on crowd members has on pacifying or potentially aggravating crowds throughout the course of an event; it is possible that crowd members may be pacified by the presence of mounted police but this may also generate negative sentiments towards the police that can have other consequences. As the research was unable to secure interviews or focus groups with demonstration organisers (despite multiple attempts) this report cannot comment on the ways in which mounted police are perceived by crowd members in these contexts.

It is also possible, and was suggested by police officers throughout the study and particularly in the focus groups with officers, that the presence of mounted police in demonstration settings has a positive impact on how other police do their jobs in these contexts. Police reported being calmed by the presence of mounted police, as mounted units gave them confidence that crowds could be controlled and officers could be kept safe if disorder were to escalate. This may have knock-on effects regarding how non-mounted police react to challenges from the crowd and may help them to avoid unnecessary escalation......
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:52
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Shame they got rid of them, warn the crowd that those peaceful demonstrators disperse now or they will be charged... bring in water canon, spray them with none washable dye, then when they disperse around London and the area arrest them off the streets and charge them.. end off..


What pisses me off is this is over something that happened in another country, we are not born racist or religious, both are taught to us by our fellow man and both are the result of so many of the worlds woes.

In fact I will go further than that, the country has locked down for months, people have lost their jobs and this bunch of tw*ts are putting everyone's lives back at risk, including their own families......


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Jun 2020 at 21:04.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 20:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fltlt View Post
Back the late 70ís I had the same experience, off the plane, rental car, driving to one of the hotels downtown. Night time, lost. Ended up looking at the dome on top of Congress, all lit up, less I/2 a mile or so away, me up on a bluff, with no way down that I could find.
Pulled over, interior light on, trying to find out where I was. A police car pulls up alongside, black female cop.
She asks me am I lost, yes, where are going, hotel whatever, ok follow me, then said something that I never expected to hear, not here, within a mile of the seat of Government of the most powerful nation in the world, ďyou arenít safe hereĒ.

My first thought was if Iím not safe here, what the hell!
Never forgot that.
I had a similar experience in DC. Driving a hire car on a day off work (I was working down at Pax River at the time), decided to go and do some sightseeing. On the way back from seeing the usual places, I got lost, and pulled over to look at the map (pre-satnav era). Police car pulls over, asks me what I was doing, explaining that he was concerned as I was in a rental car, in a "bad neighbourhood". When I said I was meeting a USN friend in Arlington, he just told me to follow him and he'd lead me on my way safely.

In several years of working in and visiting the US this was my first and only encounter with a police officer on duty, and the memory of this officer going to so much trouble has stuck with me for years.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 21:08
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
In fact I will go further than that, the country has locked down for months, people have lost their jobs and this bunch of tw*ts are putting everyone's lives back at risk, including their own families........
That's no way to talk about the Government.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 22:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the 1980's, our companies' sales man (Jon) in Chicago was black, and a nicer guy you couldn't hope to meet. So was his wife, who was a nurse, and had a white friend that she had learned nursing with some 20 years previously and was not only still a colleague at work but a Girl Scout Leader, who happened to be married to a radio amateur. My wife was the local Girl Guide leader here and a radio amateur, as was her assistant. Coming up Thinking Day ( big world wide Girl Guide/Girl Scout day - the birthday of the Baden-Powells) I was in Chicago staying with Jon. So it was arranged because of radio amateurs operating special stations for Thinking Day, we would go to Jon's wife's friends, and she would have her Girl Scouts there to use his amateur radio station to speak to my wife's Guides at our home station. All went well, a very good contact - some white girls, some black girls , a couple of Asians and a some Indian origin kids all exchanging greetings with our local Girl Guide troop..

No racism - except two of the white 14 years old American Girl Scouts exhibiting total ignorance. "How do we talk to the English Girl Scouts - do they speak English?"

I did feel like saying 'A damn sight better than you do!'...but restrained myself!
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 22:53
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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thank you ORAC for the horsey response #28. Reference is made to equine unpredictability and ability to kick. Many many years ago the knight in combat and his personal horse comprised a well trained fighting unit. I doubt that todays police riders and their horse are trained the same way. In fact I am certain of that. The wordage of the report builds a case for some mounted interventions but that wordage does not convince me that todays mounted police have value in riotous city centre London.
( Same way that all the other wordage recently generated does not convince me that universal face coverage, wrt CV is a good idea. I do not think so.)
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 23:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 23:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rifruffian View Post
thank you ORAC for the horsey response #28. Reference is made to equine unpredictability and ability to kick. Many many years ago the knight in combat and his personal horse comprised a well trained fighting unit. I doubt that todays police riders and their horse are trained the same way. In fact I am certain of that. The wordage of the report builds a case for some mounted interventions but that wordage does not convince me that todays mounted police have value in riotous city centre London.
( Same way that all the other wordage recently generated does not convince me that universal face coverage, wrt CV is a good idea. I do not think so.)
Over here they were trying to throw bricks at the horses faces!
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 23:20
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Sad to see a report tonight on BBC News that Black Afro-Caribbean police officers at the London protest have been verbally abused and spat at by their ‘brothers’
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 23:45
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Simply another left wing 'rent a crowd'.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 01:20
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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I'll probably end up sorry I got involved, but a few points to consider:
At least in the US, nearly all the violent protests have occurred in urban areas that are governed by the left. New York, Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle, Atlanta, etc. are all bastions of the far left. Why are these far left enclaves such cesspools of racism and hatred?
Last year (2019), nine unarmed blacks died at the hands of the police in the US - that's right, nine, out of a population of ~40 million black Americans. Now, I totally agree that is nine to many, and what happened to George Floyd was particularly egregious, but nine out of 40 million hardly qualifies as "widespread".
In the US, the leading cause of death among young white males is accident - auto accidents, drowning, etc. Among young black males it's homicide, with the overwhelming majority of those at the hands of other black males (reportedly ~90%). Many of the protesters are demanding that the police be defunded, yet there it's been well documented that areas where the police presence has been reduced have seen large increases in violent crime and murder. So if the protesters get their way, more young black males are likely to die violently.

Oh, and one last thing. From a very young age, I've tried very hard to ignore skin color or physical appearance in my treatment of other people - as Martin Luther King put it "they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character". I'm human and far from perfect, but for the most part I've been successful. Where I grew up there were very few black people (my senior class in high school had 3 blacks in a class of ~500 - and I was friends with two of them), the 'aggrieved minority' was the Hispanics but again I tried very hard to treat them as equals - I had lots of Hispanic friends (my sister married a Hispanic man).
I'm getting pretty damned tired of hearing people I've never met say I'm a bad person simply because I'm an older white male, and I need to get down on my knees and apologize for things I've never done.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 01:25
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
I'll probably end up sorry I got involved, but a few points to consider:
At least in the US, nearly all the violent protests have occurred in urban areas that are governed by the left. New York, Minneapolis, Chicago, Seattle, Atlanta, etc. are all bastions of the far left. Why are these far left enclaves such cesspools of racism and hatred?
Last year (2019), nine unarmed blacks died at the hands of the police in the US - that's right, nine, out of a population of ~40 million black Americans. Now, I totally agree that is nine to many, and what happened to George Floyd was particularly egregious, but nine out of 40 million hardly qualifies as "widespread".
In the US, the leading cause of death among young white males is accident - auto accidents, drowning, etc. Among young black males it's homicide, with the overwhelming majority of those at the hands of other black males (reportedly ~90%). Many of the protesters are demanding that the police be defunded, yet there it's been well documented that areas where the police presence has been reduced have seen large increases in violent crime and murder. So if the protesters get their way, more young black males are likely to die violently.

Oh, and one last thing. From a very young age, I've tried very hard to ignore skin color or physical appearance in my treatment of other people - as Martin Luther King put it "they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character". I'm human and far from perfect, but for the most part I've been successful. Where I grew up there were very few black people (my senior class in high school had 3 blacks in a class of ~500 - and I was friends with two of them), the 'aggrieved minority' was the Hispanics but again I tried very hard to treat them as equals - I had lots of Hispanic friends (my sister married a Hispanic man).
I'm getting pretty damned tired of hearing people I've never met say I'm a bad person simply because I'm an older white male, and I need to get down on my knees and apologize for things I've never done.
I think a lot of us are feeling the same way. The Mayor of Los Angeles opened up the reaparations can of worms again yesterday.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 07:22
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fltlt View Post
I think a lot of us are feeling the same way. The Mayor of Los Angeles opened up the reaparations can of worms again yesterday.
BET founder offered his reparations plan a few days ago, $14 trillion.
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