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In God's name. What have I just seen. Can the PPRuNe community do something?

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In God's name. What have I just seen. Can the PPRuNe community do something?

Old 1st Apr 2020, 09:21
  #21 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
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According to the medical profession the severity of the virus is governed by the viral load received and wearing a mask around you face that may have been infected is not considered a good idea. Many of the masks available are unable to filter the Corona virus anyway.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 09:33
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
According to the medical profession the severity of the virus is governed by the viral load received and wearing a mask around you face that may have been infected is not considered a good idea. Many of the masks available are unable to filter the Corona virus anyway.

Looking at surgical-type fine filter mask specs (N95 type, for example) it looks like they are assumed to have a 5% leakage and to filter out 95% of particles greater than 1 for the air that passes through the mask filter (rather than the 5% bypass leakage around the sides). This assumes that the mask has been selected, adjusted and fitted to the persons face properly, and that they are clean shaven. The viral particles seem to be between 0.05 and 0.2 in diameter, based just on papers I've read in the past few weeks. They may or may not be contained in aerosol-sized droplets (some research suggests they always are, some suggests they can dry out and remain viable in the air. I've no idea which is correct - this seems to be work that is moving fast and is not always being properly peer reviewed).

A non-N95 type surgical mask seems to be far less capable of filtering very fine particles. The bypass leakage seems much greater (due to the less close fit) plus the multilayer non-woven filter part can only filter down to around 2.5, from what I've read. These masks often don't seem to be manufactured to any specific filtration standard, possibly because the bypass leakage is so great. It seems their main purpose is to help contain droplets that might be expelled by someone that is infected.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 09:48
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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2 metres isn't a magic figure, it's just guidance, and is based on a limited understanding of the possible distance that an aerosol ejected by someone violently coughing MAY cover, in an enclosed room, in still air. If no one coughs, then the safe distance in still air is almost certainly a great deal closer; the WHO state that 1m is adequate separation, for example.
Indeed, I saw a report on ARD Tagesschau last week where there was a new "traffic" sign in a park or open space requiring 1.5m separation. And when all said an done there are probably far more effective ways of contracting the virus than walking passed someone who don't cough or sneeze, and doesn't shake your hand, kiss you or whatever else.

I've just been to three shops, one my local greengrocer / fishmonger (no fish, ironically because with restaurants closed the demand has dropped and the inshore fishing boats aren't catching stuff they can't sell) and two supermarkets, Lidl and Sainsbury's. In each of these I had to pick up a basket which had been handled by someone else, in the supermarkets people were handling items then putting them down, and when it came to checking out I had to touch the screens on the self checkouts to select loose fruit and veg. On the plus side all payments were by (contactless) card - the green grocer will no longer accept cash, in common with many other retailers. Thankfully I didn't have to press any button on pedestrian crossings as there's no traffic - I generally don't anyway since I was taught kerb drill as a child and generally stop, look right, left and right again, wait until it's clear and walk, and out local council car park has suspended charging, probably because the "parking Gestapo" have been redeployed or are self isolating, touching that machine was not required.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:05
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the usefulness of wearing masks by the general public, have a look at this part of the interview with Korea's top expert on SARS, MERS & now Corona. Just watch for a minute of 3 from this starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7...youtu.be&t=975
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:14
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Can't wade through all of the posts where the answer to my question almost certainly exists, but, from a truly ignorant to those in the know ; I do not have the infection. Do I need to wear a mask ? I am not infecting anyone but will my mask stop me from breathing in infected air ?Mine is the old plastic blue one I use when sanding down the outside fence Says on the box that it saves me from inhaling dust and, I do look quite cool in it especially when I just let it dangle on one-side, in the car. Bit like a spitfire pilot . Seriously though, stay safe .

Last edited by Landflap; 1st Apr 2020 at 10:15. Reason: typo
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:17
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Indeed, I saw a report on ARD Tagesschau last week where there was a new "traffic" sign in a park or open space requiring 1.5m separation. And when all said an done there are probably far more effective ways of contracting the virus than walking passed someone who don't cough or sneeze, and doesn't shake your hand, kiss you or whatever else.

I've just been to three shops, one my local greengrocer / fishmonger (no fish, ironically because with restaurants closed the demand has dropped and the inshore fishing boats aren't catching stuff they can't sell) and two supermarkets, Lidl and Sainsbury's. In each of these I had to pick up a basket which had been handled by someone else, in the supermarkets people were handling items then putting them down, and when it came to checking out I had to touch the screens on the self checkouts to select loose fruit and veg. On the plus side all payments were by (contactless) card - the green grocer will no longer accept cash, in common with many other retailers. Thankfully I didn't have to press any button on pedestrian crossings as there's no traffic - I generally don't anyway since I was taught kerb drill as a child and generally stop, look right, left and right again, wait until it's clear and walk, and out local council car park has suspended charging, probably because the "parking Gestapo" have been redeployed or are self isolating, touching that machine was not required.
sadly since you don't correctly use the pedestrian crossings, you're setting a bad example to the young children whose parents are trying to teach properly. I know that for many young children this may sadly also not be the case but I do live in hope and have taught my children and now grandchildren how to properly use the crossings. One day we may follow our continental cousins and make it an offence to not use them properly.

As a driver, I also hate people pressing the button and then not waiting, leaving me with a red light to stop at for no apparent reason.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:33
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
sadly since you don't correctly use the pedestrian crossings, you're setting a bad example to the young children whose parents are trying to teach properly. I know that for many young children this may sadly also not be the case but I do live in hope and have taught my children and now grandchildren how to properly use the crossings. One day we may follow our continental cousins and make it an offence to not use them properly.

As a driver, I also hate people pressing the button and then not waiting, leaving me with a red light to stop at for no apparent reason.
Where there are young children around then I wait until the green man appears, but frankly it's almost pointless since kids are apparently taught to rock up at a crossing, press the button, look and then walk. Waiting for the green man doesn't appear to be required. I agree that the sooner crossing on red is made illegal in UK, and ENFORCED, the better.

In most European countries good old fashioned pedestrian crossings, without lights, or flashing beacons, are the norm, and drivers fall over themselves to stop if there's a whiff of someone looking to cross. Why that no longer works in UK I just don't understand. I would much rather see someone waiting to cross, slow down, allow them over and carry on, rather than have to stop at a red light then wait 8+ seconds before moving off on green. (8 seconds was the time on old pelican crossings), and I always do stop for zebra crossings.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 10:46
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Landflap View Post
Can't wade through all of the posts where the answer to my question almost certainly exists,
did you watch the expert's opinion in my post just before yours. And if you want to know more about filtering and the different forms of big droplets, small ones, and becoming aerosol/airborne form, it's somewhere in the full interview.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 11:18
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Fake news.

It was reported as such but in really it was the staff with whom he
shook hands.
Well, that's alright then!
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 11:23
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post

As a driver, I also hate people pressing the button and then not waiting, leaving me with a red light to stop at for no apparent reason.
You should be reserving your hatred for the idiots who program Pelican crossings. Who on Earth thinks it's a good idea to make pedestrians wait for an empty road before changing the signals? That just makes the crossing redundant.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 11:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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"In most European countries good old fashioned pedestrian crossings, without lights, or flashing beacons, are the norm, and drivers fall over themselves to stop if there's a whiff of someone looking to cross."

You clearly have not been to Italy recently!! Pedestrian crossings seem to used as aiming markers!!
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 11:29
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Georg1na View Post
You clearly have not been to Italy recently!! Pedestrian crossings seem to used as aiming markers!!
First time I went to Italy was a business trip to Livorno. I drove from my hotel to the Italian Naval College during the morning rush hour, discovering that it was total mayhem. Over coffee with my host, I asked whether traffic lights had to be obeyed in Italy. His reply was "in Italy traffic lights are only for guidance". . .
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 17:18
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Re Masks ans simple logic.
I understand that a mask will prevent the droplets being expelled into the air by the wearer but are not a preventive measure for the virus from other which might collect on the outside or if small enough penetrate the mask.

However if everyone wears a mask, then infected people (who don't yet know they are infected) will not be spraying infected droplets all over everywhere and worrying about droplets or penetration from the wearers mask will not be necessary. Surely the rule should be EVERYONE wears a mask when out and no one should be allowed out without a mask!

Am I missing something here? And if not why for God's sake is there no advice or rule to this solution?
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 17:27
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
Re Masks ans simple logic.
I understand that a mask will prevent the droplets being expelled into the air by the wearer but are not a preventive measure for the virus from other which might collect on the outside or if small enough penetrate the mask.

However if everyone wears a mask, then infected people (who don't yet know they are infected) will not be spraying infected droplets all over everywhere and worrying about droplets or penetration from the wearers mask will not be necessary. Surely the rule should be EVERYONE wears a mask when out and no one should be allowed out without a mask!

Am I missing something here? And if not why for God's sake is there no advice or rule to this solution?
Tried buying masks lately?

Here they are in short supply, with some bigger online retailers refusing to stock them, as stocks are needed for health care staff.

They can be purchased from a few shady sellers, or direct from China, but that's about it.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 19:55
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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VP
Yes, but "cough and Sneeze" masks needn't be the real thing. Pretty well anything down to a scarf worn over the lower face will do. Even that will stop almost all the exhaled droplets and at least it will stop any cough and sneeze aerosols from blasting out more than a few inches.

According to the authorities the main danger for those using masks is that they touch the mask when taking it off thus exposing themselves to droplets and virus on the outside. If we ALL wear masks then we will essentially only expose ourselves to our own droplets (on the inside.) Again, would not have to be M95 as few if any droplets on the outside from other people.

Seems to me a failure of simple logic. I understand the Czech Republic is mandating face covering for anyone who goes outside, we'll see if they have a result if that is so.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 20:04
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I always knew the principle that masks protect others from the wearer rather than the other way round as I had seen it dicussed when talking about the Asian countries' habit of many people wearing them.

As all the present hoohah was getting under way we were on our way back from Thailand via Seoul. Mrs VJ was talking to the kids on her cellphone and they asked if we were wearing masks. (We had just heard that there was an outbreak in a town in the South of S Korea,) We looked around and told them we did not need to as 80% of all the others in the airport were wearing them. Only the Canadians on our flight and the English on an adjacent flight were not!
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 20:10
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with those wearing masks that aren't aware of the risks is that they may well touch their cases far more often, and their hands may have picked up contamination from the surfaces others have touched. It's nothing to do with droplets on the mask, really just subconscious hand to face movements, like adjusting a scarf or mask.

If the airborne transmission risk is greater than than the surface transmission risk, then masks are a good idea, if the reverse is the case then they may not be, especially for those who aren't used to wearing them.
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Old 1st Apr 2020, 21:25
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Quite right over all needing to wear masks when going out in Prague, for some weeks now. Restaurants are doing home deliveries.
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Old 2nd Apr 2020, 10:42
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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DIBO : on wearing of masks; thanks V much. Jury still out but on balance,I think. overall, however, "better on than off seems to be the message.. I'm gonna half wear my blue one like a spitfire pilot but on observing a majority donned, I too will mask up . Tally ho .
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Old 2nd Apr 2020, 11:07
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
According to the medical profession the severity of the virus is governed by the viral load received
Can you find anything official that supports this opinion ?
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