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Coronavirus: The Thread

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Coronavirus: The Thread

Old 19th Jul 2021, 18:51
  #16481 (permalink)  
 
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I don't understand the logic behind this comment by Mark Harper (from today's BBC News)

The MP Mark Harper, who chairs the Covid Recovery Group of Conservative backbenchers, is critical of the plan to bring in proof of vaccination for nightclubs and other crowded venues from the end of September. Speaking in the Commons he says it is effectively moving to a situation of compulsory vaccination.

Why would it effectively be compulsory, seeing as attending night clubs/entertainment venues isn't compulsory? There's a choice to be made.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 19:01
  #16482 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stevef View Post
I don't understand the logic behind this comment by Mark Harper (from today's BBC News)

The MP Mark Harper, who chairs the Covid Recovery Group of Conservative backbenchers, is critical of the plan to bring in proof of vaccination for nightclubs and other crowded venues from the end of September. Speaking in the Commons he says it is effectively moving to a situation of compulsory vaccination.

Why would it effectively be compulsory, seeing as attending night clubs/entertainment venues isn't compulsory? There's a choice to be made.
I understand Mark Harper entirely...... It discriminates against those who have not been vaccinated. More Govt bullying.....
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 19:34
  #16483 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...iefs-cv7r7qgmp

Most children will not receive Covid vaccine, say health chiefs

Children should not be routinely vaccinated against Covid-19 because of the risk of side-effects, health chiefs have concluded.

Only 380,000 children aged 12-15 with severe immune problems and learning difficulties, and those who live with immuno-compromised adults, will be eligible for vaccination after the long-awaited ruling. Scientists concluded that the impact of Covid-19 was so small for healthy children that it was outweighed by the risk of heart inflammation posed by jabs.

Sajid Javid, the health secretary, has accepted the ruling but held out the possibility of vaccinating all children later this year if data from other countries eases safety concerns.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) concluded that a risk of heart inflammation of about 1 in 20,000 after a Pfizer-BioNTech jab made the risk of mass vaccination too great when only one or two in a million children have died of Covid-19.

The wider benefits in controlling the pandemic by preventing transmission to adults were “highly uncertain” and the evidence about children’s risk from long Covid too scant for that to weigh in the decision, the committee said.

After deliberating for months on an issue that has split children’s doctors, the JCVI concluded that the direct benefits to children of vaccination in terms of reducing their risk of being hospitalised or dying were not big enough to justify jabbing millions of healthy teenagers.….
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 19:53
  #16484 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
I understand Mark Harper entirely...... It discriminates against those who have not been vaccinated. More Govt bullying.....
Oh those wicked Tories, trying to stop me going and getting ratted in a club, sharing diseases with my mates so we can all take it home to mum and gran! Next they will be telling me how much I can drink when I drive home afterwards. The rotten bullies!
Did you know in some countries you can't even send your kids to school unless they are vaccinated - how discriminatory is that?

Having seen the scenes in the clubs in the news today, I wouldn't worry about it Mike. The lemming syndrome will make sure everyone has been exposed long before September.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 21:03
  #16485 (permalink)  
 
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Why would we listen to the hectoring from a Trade Union? BMA, the owner and publisher of BMJ, is a Trade Union with more vested interests than Unite and the NUM.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 21:56
  #16486 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stevef View Post
I don't understand the logic behind this comment by Mark Harper (from today's BBC News)

The MP Mark Harper, who chairs the Covid Recovery Group of Conservative backbenchers, is critical of the plan to bring in proof of vaccination for nightclubs and other crowded venues from the end of September. Speaking in the Commons he says it is effectively moving to a situation of compulsory vaccination.

Why would it effectively be compulsory, seeing as attending night clubs/entertainment venues isn't compulsory? There's a choice to be made.
How about university lecture halls, conferences, conventions and seminars? Many hundreds often attend these events to network and mingle indiscriminately.

Or are night clubs being targeted because in this strange new, judgemental and rather puritanical world they’re considered frivolous and represent unnecessary hedonism?
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 21:59
  #16487 (permalink)  
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Or are night clubs being targeted because in this strange new, judgemental and rather puritanical world they’re considered frivolous and represent unnecessary hedonism?
Or because in the Netherlands they’ve been identified as the cause of an eightfold increase in Covid cases?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/u...spike-21037397
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 22:24
  #16488 (permalink)  
 
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O

Originally Posted by Comsat View Post
Get someone to sneeze in your face, then get them to where a mask (any type) and repeat the experiment, actually just imagine the whole thing and tell me which event you expect to leave the greater amount of snot an spit on you
Its basic physics innit and if you believe that the virus is airborne in droplets you would have to be a complete idiot to not then believe mask wearing will reduce transmission
Large globules of flying snot and saliva would also fall to the ground quicker - unless one was up close and personal, whereas aerosol virus particles are infinitesimally smaller, could potentially pass through the weave of fabric and remain airborne for significantly longer, so not a particularly good comparison or analogy.



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Old 19th Jul 2021, 22:51
  #16489 (permalink)  
 
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The wider benefits in controlling the pandemic by preventing transmission to adults were “highly uncertain” and the evidence about children’s risk from long Covid too scant for that to weigh in the decision, the committee said.
The benefit of vaccinating the adult population is that at 91% vaccination or infection we suppress the virus and can reopen society. The 16, 18 or 20 year old may not have much risk of dying (although up to a third of those infected will get long covid) but they have an equally serious risk of loss of a proper education, loss of job prospects, massively increased taxation, possibly higher interest rates effecting housing etc etc that will effect their entire lives. Today's young adults are as sensible and intelligent as previous generations and can understand this if only this government could put out clear information and not change it every 17 hours. I am totally against forcing vaccination by the back door that may result in permanent loss of human rights but I suspect it isnt needed if we only explain
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 23:47
  #16490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BWSBoy6 View Post
Large globules of flying snot and saliva would also fall to the ground quicker - unless one was up close and personal, whereas aerosol virus particles are infinitesimally smaller, could potentially pass through the weave of fabric and remain airborne for significantly longer, so not a particularly good comparison or analogy.
The mask is intended for up close encounters, either within 2m or poorly ventilated areas. You have been offered the findings of separate pieces of research that all show that even improvised masks reduce droplet and aerosol transmission. Either you have not read them through or have chosen not to believe any of them. At the same time, you have offered nothing concrete to substantiate this view. Not sure what else anyone can do. Your position seems to one of faith rather than fact..
Last try. Face masks, what the data say. From Nature this time.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 23:47
  #16491 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BWSBoy6 View Post
Try telling the public that their aircraft flying them to Lanzarote “has not been tested in practice” and “it is assumed” it is man enough for the job but don’t worry, you can set up this simple little test quite easily to test its efficacy.even if you’re a ‘nonexpert’ you can do it!
As mentioned by Ninthace, it would be unethical to do the kind of tests that would prove beyond any doubt how well each type of mask works against the virus, compared to not wearing one. That's because you would have to intentionally expose people to the virus in a controlled environment. Since you used an aviation analogy, it would be like taking an aircraft full of passengers and intentionally ditching it, to demonstrate the ditching safety of the aircraft.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 06:39
  #16492 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by annakm View Post
How about university lecture halls, conferences, conventions and seminars? Many hundreds often attend these events to network and mingle indiscriminately.

Or are night clubs being targeted because in this strange new, judgemental and rather puritanical world they’re considered frivolous and represent unnecessary hedonism?
Excuse me for stating the obvious but the behaviour of young people in nightclubs is hardly comparable with the actions of people attending conventions, seminars and lectures.

Night clubs: poor ventilation, very close or intimate proximity with hundreds of other patrons on the dance floor, deep shoulder-to-shoulder queues at the bar, sweat-to-hard-surface contamination after touching facial areas, raised airborne transmission due to singing, shouting or speaking loudly over music levels and the catalyst of alcohol to remove safety inhibitions.

I'd have thought it unlikely that the same conditions and conduct would exist in an auditorium or assembly hall.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 07:16
  #16493 (permalink)  
 
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Another nice piece from Michael Deacon in the DT today

Nervous PM sent to his room, and then gives us a telling-off

Say what you like about Fate, but she’s certainly got a sense of humour.

How darkly comic of her, how wickedly mischievous, to arrange events so that Boris Johnson would have to spend freedom day in solitary confinement. Poor man. When he drew up his roadmap, all those months ago, he must have pictured this day as a moment of not just national but personal triumph.

Instead, addressing the nation by video link as cases soared, he looked like Churchill declaring victory from the bowels of an air raid shelter, while VE Day street parties were strafed by Messerschmitts.

None the less, the Prime Minister decided to soldier on, hosting yesterday’s news conference virtually, via his laptop at Chequers (“on Zoom or Teams or whatever brilliant system we’re using”). But it wasn’t just his personal circumstances that made the event seem faintly surreal. It was his message. Far from victorious, it sounded downright nervous. Essentially, he appeared to be saying: “I’ve given you back your freedoms – but for pity’s sake, please don’t use them.”

At times, in fact, his message was so contradictory that he didn’t seem entirely able to follow it himself. Especially when it came to the subject of nightclubs.

“We are concerned,” said Mr Johnson, frowning grimly, “by the continuing risk posed by nightclubs.” A watching nation surely did a double take.

Nightclubs? As in, the things the Prime Minister had told to reopen just 17 hours earlier? If he was so deeply concerned by their “continuing” risk, why had he done that?

Not to worry. The PM had a solution. All clubbers, he announced, would be legally obliged to carry a vaccine passport … “by the end of September”.

But hang on. That was two and a half months away. In the meantime, presumably, the virus would be spreading through packed nightclubs like wildfire. So why not bring in vaccine passports for clubbers straight away? Or leave nightclubs shut until all young people had been double jabbed? Mr Johnson had no clear answer to either question.

“We don’t want to keep nightclubs closed,” he gabbled, “because, to go back to my argument earlier, you have to ask yourself: ‘If not now, when?’” Er … the end of September?

No doubt the announcement on vaccine passports was principally designed as a threat, to jolt more of the young into getting jabbed. The Prime Minister was visibly displeased that so many in the 18-30 age group – 35 per cent, or three million people – still hadn’t booked their first injection.

“I would remind everybody,” he said sternly, “that some of life’s most important pleasures and opportunities are likely to be increasingly dependent on vaccination …”

There was no mistaking the Prime Minister’s tone here: this was a telling-off. If you young folk don’t do as you’re told, he was saying, you’ll be grounded.

A reasonable enough warning. Although it might have sounded more impressive had the Prime Minister not been grounded himself.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 07:20
  #16494 (permalink)  
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Spain

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...rges-r2s6x5htg

Catalonia faces ICU crisis as Delta variant surges

Intensive care units in some Spanish hospitals are days from collapse as a fifth wave of the coronavirus spreads rapidly among its unvaccinated young people.…

With an infection rate of 1,160 per 100,000 over a 14-day period, Catalonia has one of the five worst rates of contagion in Europe.

The virus has spread mainly among unvaccinated young people going out to meet friends and partying during their summer holidays. The incidence rate among 20-29 year-olds has exceeded 3,000 cases per 100,000 over the past few weeks…

Cases have jumped in particular in Barcelona’s most affluent neighbourhoods as young people return from end-of-year school trips to Majorca, Menorca and Tenerife where Covid-19 outbreaks affected 242 Catalan students.

Catalonia was one of the first regions of Spain to open up the vaccine programme to those over 16 but, as Craywinckel admitted, the authorities reacted too late.

She said she was in favour of offering injections to children under 16. “It would be good to incorporate them in the autumn, at the start of school,” she said. “Before that we can’t do it.”…
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 10:08
  #16495 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stevef View Post
Excuse me for stating the obvious but the behaviour of young people in nightclubs is hardly comparable with the actions of people attending conventions, seminars and lectures.

Night clubs: poor ventilation, very close or intimate proximity with hundreds of other patrons on the dance floor, deep shoulder-to-shoulder queues at the bar, sweat-to-hard-surface contamination after touching facial areas, raised airborne transmission due to singing, shouting or speaking loudly over music levels and the catalyst of alcohol to remove safety inhibitions.

I'd have thought it unlikely that the same conditions and conduct would exist in an auditorium or assembly hall.
I take your point - to a degree - but I don’t think Covid is too fussed about the environmental opportunities to spread. Anywhere there is people in large numbers, there is potential. I’ve certainly done it myself, there’s a lot of background noise because of sheer numbers so you invariably lean into the person’s space who is addressing you, close enough to feel their breath, they raise their voice to be hear so project and so certainly close enough to exchange virus particles.

I haven’t been to a night club since the 80s but I’ve still managed to contract flu and colds regularly as part of my role is attending and speaking at conventions. I certainly wasn’t dancing, singing, drinking or losing my inhibitions but still ended up very poorly on at least two occasions and I’m generally very fit and healthy.




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Old 20th Jul 2021, 13:04
  #16496 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Oh those wicked Tories, trying to stop me going and getting ratted in a club, sharing diseases with my mates so we can all take it home to mum and gran! Next they will be telling me how much I can drink when I drive home afterwards. The rotten bullies!
Did you know in some countries you can't even send your kids to school unless they are vaccinated - how discriminatory is that?

Having seen the scenes in the clubs in the news today, I wouldn't worry about it Mike. The lemming syndrome will make sure everyone has been exposed long before September.
It makes no difference to me the colour of the Govt. Just do not think they should be bullying people into accepting vaccination. If folk take it up out personal choice that is fine..... I will be attending a night club this Saturday.....can't wait!!
Drinking & driving is just a total distraction.....
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 14:38
  #16497 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
It makes no difference to me the colour of the Govt. Just do not think they should be bullying people into accepting vaccination. If folk take it up out personal choice that is fine..... I will be attending a night club this Saturday.....can't wait!!
Drinking & driving is just a total distraction.....
Your learned scientific and medical background may be of interest to us here, presumably these disciplines form the basis for you statement above ? hence you can prove a case for not being vaccinated ?...

Now this Gov't is well established with the imposition, albeit subliminal, of totalitarian rule, but, despite this, I can't recall being forced / bullied / coerced to get vaccinated..in fact both of us were only too willing to attend voluntarily....so were a few million others in the UK btw.

However, before you attend this nightclub, presumably the Bolton Horwich ( now there's a dump ! ) and Westhaughton Whist and Tombola evening, you may wish to read this article by a paramedic. Unlike say, Gov't Ministers, inc Boris, these people actually know what they are talking about.

For us NHS paramedics, the rise in calls to Covid cases is ominously familiar | Jake Jones | The Guardian

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Old 20th Jul 2021, 14:59
  #16498 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Your learned scientific and medical background may be of interest to us here, presumably these disciplines form the basis for you statement above ? hence you can prove a case for not being vaccinated ?...

Now this Gov't is well established with the imposition, albeit subliminal, of totalitarian rule, but, despite this, I can't recall being forced / bullied / coerced to get vaccinated..in fact both of us were only too willing to attend voluntarily....so were a few million others in the UK btw.

However, before you attend this nightclub, presumably the Bolton Horwich ( now there's a dump ! ) and Westhaughton Whist and Tombola evening, you may wish to read this article by a paramedic. Unlike say, Gov't Ministers, inc Boris, these people actually know what they are talking about.

For us NHS paramedics, the rise in calls to Covid cases is ominously familiar | Jake Jones | The Guardian
I have no wish to prove anything. Not happy with the way the public are being manipulated and our freedoms being torn away from us for not good reason. Yes, these things are being done by Govt Ministers.
Listen to Lord Sumption....
Not sure where you live. Wonder if you have even visited this part of the world. ?? The North of England has been my home for over 40 years.
No Whist or Tombola where I will be on Saturday night....!!
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 15:08
  #16499 (permalink)  
 
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BB's first visit to a large supermarket since "Freedom Day". Mask wearing dropped from I'd guess 99% to 95% of customers. Only there for about 20 minutes but those without a mask were all men under 40. Make of that what you will.
(BB was wearing a mask.)
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 15:47
  #16500 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo View Post
BB's first visit to a large supermarket since "Freedom Day". Mask wearing dropped from I'd guess 99% to 95% of customers. Only there for about 20 minutes but those without a mask were all men under 40. Make of that what you will.
(BB was wearing a mask.)
The male of the species of that age group, often manual workers wearing donkey jackets and / or hi-vis were the group least likely to be wearing masks at the Morrisons Local (corner shop) before "freedom day". There was / is something their pea-sized brains simply fail to comprehend about face coverings and why they are worn - to protect others rather than themselves. Plain selfish, no more, no less.

I have just returned from a foray to our local Tesco Extra and my experience in terms of mask wearing is pretty similar to yours, the refuseniks tend to be younger (below 40 I'd say) and often female with kids in tow. Donning a mask is just normal for me now, really can't see it changing.
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