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Coronavirus: The Thread

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Coronavirus: The Thread

Old 8th May 2020, 12:58
  #6341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
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I reckon the UK and US will bumble along over the next few months, never really getting to grip with the virus, while the rest of the world looks on in disbelief. People already have it in their heads that it's all over
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Old 8th May 2020, 12:59
  #6342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: australia
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Reference attendance at funerals.

As previously with the number of times you can exercise, the limit to 10 people is not in in the Act. see Section 6(2)g below.

However, Gipsy_Queen's attendance was prohibited as family members were in attendance. The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—.........

(g)to attend a funeral of—
(i)a member of the person’s household,
(ii)a close family member, or
(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;
For Australia It's not easy only having under 100 deaths, I don't think the family would want 100 people to attend and AU have 10,000 deaths. It's called community. We have entered step 1 of opening up, as from Monday, Funerals are now 20 inside and 30 outside

the plan
https://www.covid-19.sa.gov.au/__dat...ep-1-final.pdf


Last edited by golder; 8th May 2020 at 13:14.
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Old 8th May 2020, 13:10
  #6343 (permalink)  
 
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I reckon the UK and US will bumble along over the next few months, never really getting to grip with the virus, while the rest of the world looks on in disbelief. People already have it in their heads that it's all over
The sun is out and it's a Bank Holiday! You'll have to wait until the Polar Air comes down on Monday to divest the good people that things aren't back to normal ;-)

Whilst exercising in my local park yesterday afternoon there came 3 ladeez from different directions and set up a blanket in the middle of the various people doing various exercises and sitting upon said blanket commence a loud and happy wine/cheese/gossip picnic for an hour. Not discrete, nor shy, but brazen. Hopefully none of them was asymptomatic!
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Old 8th May 2020, 13:29
  #6344 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The "micro dose" idea doesn't seem to stand up well to inspection.... If anything, a small dose of virus that doesn't cause disease might "pump prime" the immune system, so a later infection might be less severe than it otherwise might have been, a bit like a crude version of inoculation.
If I'm not mistaken, you said the mechanism SpringHeeledJack was speaking of didn't stand up well to inspection, before a complete about face, re-presenting the idea as yours and endorsing it.
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Old 8th May 2020, 13:29
  #6345 (permalink)  
 
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I think the last few posts on here make a very good point. The U.K. government basically had no choice but perhaps “over egg” and scare us into compliance because of the few that don’t understand simple instructions. It’s slightly backfired as there are some that think now that the curve is flattened, that’s their cue to disregard everything, and there’s a large group that are now so s*** scared that they’ve started an online petition to beg HMG to extend the lockdown firmer and for another four weeks! It reminds me very much of the hysteria generated by AIDs in the 1980s. We do need to keep this thing in perspective and take sensible precautions.

There has to be some sort of compromise as it’s killing the economy and will also result in unrelated, unnecessary deaths as funding for the NHS cannot continue at the present rate without income from taxes etc. I made this point on social media and was howled down because “that money isn’t more important than lives!” and, even more tastefully, “Just you wait until YOU get it!” A lot of the contributors that are pro total lockdown for everyone except NHS staff and haven’t thought how their online orders and shopping will get delivered.

Like any Coronavirus, it’s not going to just disappear, and as has been said many times, we are going to have to learn to live with it and adapt our lifestyles accordingly. It’s no good hiding under the blankets waiting for daybreak, because it’s not going to happen.

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Old 8th May 2020, 13:38
  #6346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pilotmike View Post
If I'm not mistaken, you said the mechanism SpringHeeledJack was speaking of didn't stand up well to inspection, before a complete about face, re-presenting the idea as yours and endorsing it.

Eh?

Not at all sure what on earth you're on about.

I read the idea presented as there was a greater risk from multiple exposure to tiny doses of infection, whereas what I wrote was completely the opposite!

Absolutely sod all to do with me, anyway, it's only based on what I've read, so not at all "my idea".
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Old 8th May 2020, 13:58
  #6347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
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I'll let you into a secret: I already knew it would be me who was wrong, not you.

Back to reality, how can you misinterpret what SpringHeeledJack said to mean there being "a greater risk from multiple exposure to tiny doses of infection", for a second time, after just having your mistake pointed out to you?
To remind you, this is what was actually said.
could it be that those who have been out and about for shopping etc have received micro-doses of the virus over a period, which has made them more capable of not becoming ill, a sort of 'coping resistance' ?
But I'm sure you'll argue the toss and it will turn out to be me who is wrong, not 'Virtually Perfect', as always.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:07
  #6348 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pilotmike View Post
I'll let you into a secret: I already knew it would be me who was wrong, not you.

Back to reality, how can you misinterpret what SpringHeeledJack said to mean there being "a greater risk from multiple exposure to tiny doses of infection", for a second time, after just having your mistake pointed out to you?
To remind you, this is what was actually said.

But I'm sure you'll argue the toss and it will turn out to be me who is wrong, not 'Virtually Perfect', as always.

Sorry, I completely misread the original post. Twice . . .

I certainly didn't mean to create such angst, not even sure quite how I managed to misread it the first time, let alone the second time. What's worse is that I started to misread it again a minute ago when checking, then the penny dropped. I'd got it into my head that it read as if several small doses might be cumulative and so cause disease as a consequence of some sort of build up, which I can no see was just wrong.

Not sure that making a mistake like this warranted the "argue the toss" comment, though, and I didn't state you were wrong, either, just that I didn't understand what you were on about. We're all human, and can all make errors from time to time, I'm sure.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:11
  #6349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
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In case it wasn't obvious, this was the bit...
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Eh?

Not at all sure what on earth you're on about.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:19
  #6350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Australia and New Zealand have, as Islands, managed to keep the virus out by effectively isolating themselves from the world. The UK might be an island but, due to location, history, the EU and sea and tunnel links that was never an option.

The question I would ask, assuming the virus, as the Institute in Germany admits, the virus will remain endemic in the world for years, and probably permanently, is how long Australia and New Zealand can maintain their isolation?

Travellers have always accepted the use of sprays in aircraft to keep out insects etc. I am not sure requiring all visitors to accept 14 days quarantine on remote islands will do wonders for their business and tourist industries.
The UK had exactly the same capability to close those doors as Australia and NZ.
It chose not to.
I attribute that decision to political will, that's all.

Australia is gambling on the fact (possibility) that it can keep the international travel under control until such time as an effective vaccine is developed.
That's quite a gamble.
Only time will tell how that works out.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:24
  #6351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
Which is why I believe the lock down severity that we put in place would serve us better if it was linked with the capacity to handle the outbreaks of the disease. A zero infection rate is to the best to my knowledge practically impossible therefore we must adapt and learn to live with this disease for the next couple of years without punishing ourselves unnecessarily.
If you have to have it it is always better to have a disease late than early. When all the other poor unfortunates have shown the medical profession how to deal with it in the best way. The longer you can avoid CoVid19 the better your chances of survival. Even if no vaccine is found, new or old drugs that works on lindering will come on line. They will learn more on how the virus affects other parts of the body than just your lungs, like bloodwessels, heart and brain. When to just ive your oxygen and at what level you have to be intubated. How to treat different types of people based on your background, medical condition and what other things you have been vaccinated against and/or built up resistance to. They may even succeed in treating you with antibodies extracted from others that went before you. And you yourself have the time to train up what may be needed. Like lung capacity, and muscle mass for if you are intubated. Cut out smooking to heal the lungs and change your diet to unclog your arteries. And collect all the remedies you might need to monitor your self and know when going to a hospital is unavoidable, like thermometer and oxymeter. Yes some have died because they didn't have a thermometer to monitor their fever with.
So keeping the infections down to just under what hospitals can cope with may not be the best solution for avoiding high numbers of neither deaths nor for minimalising post infection long term debilitations.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:33
  #6352 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pilotmike View Post
In case it wasn't obvious, this was the bit...
I know, as I've already written, I didn't understand what you were on about, as I'd (repeatedly) misread the original post. My error, no idea how on earth I managed to read the same thing a few times without spotting that I'd got the meaning completely arse about face. I guess that, having misread it initially, I just expected it to confirm my initial, wrong, interpretation when I read it again.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:38
  #6353 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure what pratt of a civil servant decided upon the redactions. As stated the measures discussed weren’t implemented, in line with the SAGE recommendations, even though they were elsewhere such as in France. The excuse they are still under consideration also doesn’t stand-up, circumstances change and if voluntary adherence doesn’t last then they may be required.

I recall that one of the main reasons given for delaying the lockdown was that the experts didn’t think voluntary adherence would last long term and it was best to delay introduction to achieve the maximum initial effect. Maybe they should have recommended an earlier introduction and more coercive measures after all.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ovid-19-advice
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:45
  #6354 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Not sure what pratt of a civil servant decided upon the redactions. As stated the measures discussed werenít implemented, in line with the SAGE recommendations, even though they were elsewhere such as in France. The excuse they are still under consideration also doesnít stand-up, circumstances change and if voluntary adherence doesnít last then they may be required.

I recall that one of the main reasons given for delaying the lockdown was that the experts didnít think voluntary adherence would last long term and it was best to delay introduction to achieve the maximum initial effect. Maybe they should have recommended an earlier introduction and more coercive measures after all.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ovid-19-advice

Pratt is right! What an almighty PR disaster. I suspect many can guess what the redacted parts may say, anyway, plus they are pretty much going to have to release the non-redacted content now it's been highlighted (which was always inevitable). I wonder what planet some of the government PR people are on, thinking that doing something like this was OK.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:52
  #6355 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Pratt is right! What an almighty PR disaster. I suspect many can guess what the redacted parts may say, anyway, plus they are pretty much going to have to release the non-redacted content now it's been highlighted (which was always inevitable). I wonder what planet some of the government PR people are on, thinking that doing something like this was OK.
Maybe they are the same PR people who have withheld the report on Russian influence in the Conservative Party and election.
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Old 8th May 2020, 14:55
  #6356 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Pratt is right! What an almighty PR disaster. I suspect many can guess what the redacted parts may say, anyway, plus they are pretty much going to have to release the non-redacted content now it's been highlighted (which was always inevitable). I wonder what planet some of the government PR people are on, thinking that doing something like this was OK.
I think it's way more likely the redaction was ordered by a SPAD than a civil servant. As you say, the cats out of the bag and it's only a matter of time before we see the full report.
​​​​
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Old 8th May 2020, 15:01
  #6357 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Maybe they are the same PR people who have withheld the report on Russian influence in the Conservative Party and election.

Wouldn't surprise me. I get the feeling that they think they can just sit on this and it will go away, so they need to have their feet held to the fire and made to publish it, as agreed. I'm surprised that Keir Starmer hasn't already been making more noise about it, TBH.
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Old 8th May 2020, 15:09
  #6358 (permalink)  
 
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Deaths/M population:
Scary numbers and of course, in many cases, meaningless.
A country with 1,208 deaths per Million sounds like hell on earth compared to the UK with 451.
However, the higher number refers to Andorra, population probably could be counted by the gross, rather than millions!
I still think the best way to look at these numbers is by total cases.
So, if x thousand people have been confirmed to have the disease and x hundred have died, then the death rate is a function of these 2 numbers.
On that basis, the UK is doing pretty poorly, just ahead of Belgium. On the other hand there are figures from places such as New Caledonia which recorded 18 cases and 18 recoveries.
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Old 8th May 2020, 16:36
  #6359 (permalink)  
 
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so they need to have their feet held to the fire
Hmmm - given that I have been wittering on about this specific concern for some months with little or no response, I can't see too many of our 'defenders of Democracy' leaping into the fray. With that level of indifference in a political discussion environment the 'sit on it and it will go away' enthusiasts will hold sway. It is noticeable that not one single media outlet, Press, TV, radio or other has given as much as a column inch to press the case.Obviously the buffoon isn't going to volunteer such potentially embarassing material. So, the primary method by which the people can hold the Executive to account is under suspicion of being even more corrupt than it demonstrably is, and the population response is ...deafening silence! Which 'D' word should we apply to such an example of 'people power'? ... perhaps, given the most recent 'redaction fever', D Notice would be the Government's preferred option?
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Old 8th May 2020, 16:40
  #6360 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure that a DSMA Notice could legally be used as a tool to suppress this information, as the public interest argument must, surely, outweigh any (pretty slim, I think) national security argument. Not even sure there are any national security issues about this, given that it's looking at potential interference with our democratic processes, using publicly accessible social media, in the main.

Not publishing this report very definitely suggests that there is something in it that Boris doesn't want made public, which is enough reason on its own to publish it ASAP.
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