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The shocking state of PPRuNe

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The shocking state of PPRuNe

Old 9th Jan 2020, 20:29
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Rightly or wrongly I was banned from the SLF forum 9 years ago. The moderator concerned no longer moderates. I have never been banned (or warned) in any other PPRuNe forum. I recently asked if I could be re-instated in the SLF forum but have received no reply.
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Old 12th Jan 2020, 14:08
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Some Forums seem to have interesting standards for surgical actions.

I find it interesting that one can be barred from a Forum but all your previous posts remain.

It would seem that when removed from posting then all of your posts would disappear as well.

It might be a function of the tools available to the Moderator that causes that.

One thing for sure....moderation of several forums has improved as the old long term Mods move on and are replaced by the new.

In the past I have been asked to delete a post and always did so with good grace.....and suggest that approach works much better than just seeing a post disappear without any notice leaving one to guess what the reason for the removal was.

For sure not a single one of us are clairvoyant with the ability to smell our hand and know what the Mod is thinking.

But.....as has been said before....especially in the past when things were really subject to which time of the month it was....it is "their Train Set"....put up with it or move along.

If enough folks move along.....then that Train Set will come to a long slow halt.

I continue to look at the Rotorheads Forum and appreciate the professional standard of the moderation we have enjoyed at that Forum over the years with one Mod after another doing an excellent job in riding herd on some very hard nosed folks.

As far as I am concerned....they. have set the Standard and have been drawn from the leadership of our Industry.

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Old 12th Jan 2020, 14:46
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Same as many of you...been banned from R&N several months ago for a stupid mistake (asking a simple information i could have found on the open internet), got a reply from a mod, I was never unbanned. I had to create a new account to access it again.

I have even asked many times how to close the previous profile no longer used, never had a reply.

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Old 14th Jan 2020, 19:10
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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I first joined PPRuNe to read aviation related news and comments. I've been in this business for over 45 years now -- and I'm still actively involved (in the aviation business, not PPRuNe so much anymore).

I used to participate in forums in which I had some interest and knowledge and there were many events / subjects over the years wherein PPRuNe forums enlightened me – and many others I’m sure. But... there are two issues with PPRuNe that combined to push me away from active participation -- and those two issues are not unique to PPRuNe but are at the root (I believe) of what turns many people away from this and other online forums.

1 People who join a forum or discussion and have little or no interest in reading previous posts before flinging themselves into the fray, often contributing dozens of posts for a few days or weeks before tiring of the subject. By way of justification these people often say something like “I couldn’t be bothered to read xx pages of this thread”, yet somehow they think their contribution will be enlightening or contribute something crucial to the discussion / debate. Once others (usually ultra-patient long time ppruners) posit points of view and opinions, complete with facts and reasoned points of view that differ from their own, these people disappear, but there are so many of this species of online visitor their sheer numbers combine to make most threads (even the supposed professional ones) tiresome and frustrating to read – never mind participate actively in.

2 The inability (or perhaps lack of resources) of PPRuNe to deal with inappropriate behavior. I don’t mean the behavior that seems to most irk the mods, such as thread drift, repetitive posts, etc., I mean truly inappropriate behavior such as bigotry, racism and general xenophobia. Some of the more social threads seem rife with this nastiness and, as result, I posted a question about that issue on the “Pprune Problems or Queries” forum almost 4 months ago. That question received no reply (nor any PM) from any moderator or other representative of PPRuNe. None. I thought I’d receive at least a request for specifics (and I do have specific examples, otherwise I wouldn’t have made the accusation or posted the question). At the time I posted that question I purposely didn’t cite specific usernames or threads as I was certain that would result in my question being removed and me being banned. In hindsight perhaps I should have posted some examples. Maybe I should do that if this post (or my question to mods from Sept. 20) doesn’t elicit a response.

Like many other aviation professionals, I wish PPRuNe could somehow raise itself up to a more professional level and regain the status and respect it once had. I’m no expert in online forums so I have no idea what I would do if I were the owner(s) of PPRuNe. Speaking of which, someone else posted that PPRuNe is a money-making business but uses volunteer moderators. As I say, I’m not very knowledgeable about online forums and their business models but (with respect) the matter of volunteer moderators seems problematic in itself.

Cheers,

Grizzled




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Old 15th Jan 2020, 03:10
  #105 (permalink)  
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I mean truly inappropriate behavior such as bigotry, racism and general xenophobia.
Grizzled, I don't tolerate any of that, any such post will be deleted, even if there is other merit worthy content. I know other moderators act similarly. I have deleted a number of posts for exactly this reason in the past couple of days. I have had a rather nasty exchange with a disgruntled poster about this today, in which I received even more of it. That poster won't be posting for a while.

Mods can't read all posts, and I don't even look at all forums, I just take care of the forums in my area of familiarity. It is possible that you made a post which simply no mods read - I'm sure it happens. Contacting moderators is not difficult.

PPRuNe's business model is beyond my scope. I volunteer here to have some effect to keep PPRuNe as a purpose oriented pilot forum, and to encourage discussion, and promote aviation to newly interested participants. Where 30 years ago, I'd sit and chat around the airport clubhouse, it seems rather vacant now, I guess all of the keeners at at home reading pilot forums - so I contribute here to do my part to put back the generosity shown to me over the decades.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 08:36
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Griz - the issues you highlight are common on all BB's - far far worse on anything to do with financial affairs - some being paid for to try and manipulate the stock price of some shares (see Investors Chronicle 13/12/19 AIM Traps) below - also I'd say volunteer Mods are far far better than paid ones- the volunteers are actually interested in the subject - paid ones would only be interested in pushing volume as stated in the IC article-Online bulletin boards

Bulletin board providers are popular among many private investors – some of whom are incredibly well researched, and some of whom (to put it politely) aren’t. At the lower end of the market, these boards are used to encourage the naďve to buy into a stock. There are many who have multi-IDs who then literally have a conversation with themselves, in an attempt to generate excitement around the stock.

Should anyone post a contrasting opinion – they are called out as a ‘shorter’ or a ‘deramper’ and are the subject of abuse. Worse still, the group encourages everyone to ‘report’ the post in an attempt to have the post automatically deleted. This means that anyone viewing the board will only see one positive narrative because the posts that are automatically deleted are not reviewed by anyone. Those who own the bulletin boards don’t care about the actual content of the posts, because they’re not monetising the boards. What they monetise is the volume of traffic on the site, which they then sell in the form of advertisements and impressions. So, while the bulletin boards are free to use, there is almost no point in using them. "


"
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 09:27
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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For me, by far the most shocking state of PPRuNe is that every time I check Jet Blast the top thread is entitled "Harry and Megan..."
​​​​​​It this really what occupies the minds of an allegedly intelligent section of the community?
How many PPRuNe members read the Daily Mail every morning to get the latest updates on the minor royals?
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 09:57
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
I nearly deleted this whole thread just now, and expect that before long one of the moderators will. In the mean time, I'll play a little before you go....

The moderators are all volunteers, and seek to promote discussion within PPRuNe, in accordance with the policies for posting. First, and foremost, "hotel lobby rules", would you say that out loud in a busy hotel lobby, where anyone could be listening? Next, for me, would I want to read the post out loud to my children? If I see a "no" on the horizon for either question relative to a post, or the majority of a thread, it may be doomed. There after, does the post actually contribute to the discussion in any useful way? Does the post malign a person or business, such that there could be claims of libel? If in doubt, we mods will sometimes consult in the background, to be as fair as possible.

PPRuNe is a private website, and therefore we all must follow the rules of the owner - yes, even I, as a moderator, have had posts deleted by other moderators - it happens, and in hind sight, I saw the point. posting here is not a "right", though within the rule, and subject o moderation, posts are welcomed.

Software changes beyond moderator control have reduced the means by which we can block posters who are in apparent violation. It is what it is, and we mods work with the tools given to us. We mods simply do not have time to PM everyone whose post we might delete, nor do we want to be drawn in to a discussion about our decision. Generally, challenges to moderation are not tolerated at all, which is why this thread will not last long.

Ultimately, if I heard people in my waiting room vigorously expressing negative views, with disregard to the viewpoints of other people, I would likely ask them to refrain, or leave my waiting room - does that sound reasonable.

And please don't quote PM's in public.

Thank you for your consideration...



Pilot DAR
That would be reasonable but thats not what happens is it?, people recieve timeouts, bans, deletions with no explanation, no warnings and often no logical idea as to why they have been singled out.
This place has the worst quality of moderation I have experienced anywhere and you have been told this by many people, many times but it never sinks in.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 10:07
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slaine View Post
That would be reasonable but thats not what happens is it?, people recieve timeouts, bans, deletions with no explanation, no warnings and often no logical idea as to why they have been singled out.
This place has the worst quality of moderation I have experienced anywhere and you have been told this by many people, many times but it never sinks in.
Says the man/woman who sends insults via personal mail...
What a joke...
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 11:49
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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"This place has the worst quality of moderation I have experienced anywhere and you have been told this by many people, many times but it never sinks in."

I've had my issues as well but it's been explained ad nauseam why things are the way they are - paid Mods would be worse IMHO

If you don't like it there is an obvious solution.
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Old 15th Jan 2020, 14:11
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by grizzled View Post
2 The inability (or perhaps lack of resources) of PPRuNe to deal with inappropriate behavior. I don’t mean the behavior that seems to most irk the mods, such as thread drift, repetitive posts, etc., I mean truly inappropriate behavior such as bigotry, racism and general xenophobia. Some of the more social threads seem rife with this nastiness and, as result, I posted a question about that issue on the “Pprune Problems or Queries” forum almost 4 months ago.
You put your finger on a few things, but I will say this: when I see something insulting or nasty being posted, I tend to report the post. When I first started posting on PPRuNe over 10 years ago, there was something in the rules/terms/conditions, and in the RoE in Jet Blast, about "play the ball, not the man."
When people play the man not the ball, it is often worth reporting.
That gets the attention of mods (I have had a few posts disappear when I got short with some people). I also got some time off from a sub forum when The Towers advised me that I'd been playing the man rather than the ball.

Insofar as the issue number 1: I share your frustration with folks who won't bother to read the thread before posting, though I am not sure what can be done about that.
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Old 16th Jan 2020, 17:31
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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I hesitate to go off topic but as a kind Moderator may be surveying this interesting thread:

In December I tried to reply to a PM from a newbie to PPRuNe that was a plea for information about a lost relative of his that I knew briefly a long time ago. When I tried to reply by PM, the system generated a message stating that the newbie's mailbox was full (highly unlikely). This guy has yet to post on PPRuNe.

So I used the "contact-us" facility to ask the powers-that-be if it was possible to put him in touch with me. So far, I've had no response. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in anticipation,
Chris
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Old 17th Jan 2020, 03:52
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
For me, by far the most shocking state of PPRuNe is that every time I check Jet Blast the top thread is entitled "Harry and Megan..."
​​​​​​It this really what occupies the minds of an allegedly intelligent section of the community?
How many PPRuNe members read the Daily Mail every morning to get the latest updates on the minor royals?
Harry and Megan because the Kardashians are so 2019. Take the good with the bad.
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Old 18th Jan 2020, 12:13
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Although slightly off-topic, there are some posts in here about past “colourful “ personalities.
So my question is, did Checkboard ever write his book?
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Old 18th Jan 2020, 12:32
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
I hesitate to go off topic but as a kind Moderator may be surveying this interesting thread:

In December I tried to reply to a PM from a newbie to PPRuNe that was a plea for information about a lost relative of his that I knew briefly a long time ago. When I tried to reply by PM, the system generated a message stating that the newbie's mailbox was full (highly unlikely). This guy has yet to post on PPRuNe.

So I used the "contact-us" facility to ask the powers-that-be if it was possible to put him in touch with me. So far, I've had no response. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in anticipation,
Chris

Chris - I'm not a Mod but the Newbie's personal inbox is limited until she/he gets full rights - 10 posts or whatever. If they didn't post anymore then they never would get access. I suggest you post on whatever the original thread was asking them to keep going and then PM you when they reach 10 posts. That way you'll push the issue up the relevant forum - they may be continuing to read or even (heaven forfend) be on here under another name.
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Old 25th Jan 2020, 11:21
  #116 (permalink)  
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Oooooo . . . I posted on the military section - probably for the first time.

Odd, everything else I wrote has gone. Gist was that there'd been a fantastic program about the A10, and given planes are far too sensible for this section, I thought I'd better put it on the above. It ran, but then got zapped.

I trained meself, so not qualified, I guess.

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    Old 25th Jan 2020, 17:37
      #117 (permalink)  
    I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
     
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    Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
    Oooooo . . . I posted on the military section - probably for the first time.

    Odd, everything else I wrote has gone. Gist was that there'd been a fantastic program about the A10, and given planes are far too sensible for this section, I thought I'd better put it on the above. It ran, but then got zapped.

    I trained meself, so not qualified, I guess.



    Having seen a fantastic program about the A10 Tank Buster or whatever its official name is, I posted on the above forum. I obviously had the ability to do it, but no one answered so it seems I don't belong there even if I had the privileges. I read in, judging the content and thought the link to my post might be amusing. I was going to put it on JB - so I will. But oddly I can't just link to my post. Quora is like that. Indeed, when Admiral Tony put something on via Photo Bucket, one could see all his stuff. Not always obvious how to overcome this except to cut and paste which is often counter productive when trying to convey the feel of a thread.
    Your MiL forum post is still there but the thread is closed.
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    Old 25th Jan 2020, 20:12
      #118 (permalink)  
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    Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
    Your MiL forum post is still there but the thread is closed.
    I have merged the threads back into JB, and have no idea why the original was closed: sorry, Rivets
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    Old 25th Jan 2020, 23:43
      #119 (permalink)  
     
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    As I have said previously......Rotorheads has always enjoyed excellent Moderators.

    Senior Pilot continues that high standard as just evidenced by his post and corrective action.

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    Old 26th Jan 2020, 12:13
      #120 (permalink)  

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    Snoop

    After all this time away, I see little has changed. There will always be users unhappy with the standard of moderation, especially if they perceive bias against them.

    Whilst there are some appreciative voices, in particular from those that appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into moderating forums, many will have a gripe, probably even rightly so. Unfortunately, you can't satisfy all the people all of the time.

    When I started this website back in the mid 90's, I never expected it to grow into what it has become today. The army of volunteer moderators who have helped manage and contain the vast amount of information that flows into and out from these forums is a mammoth task.

    The biggest problem I found out very early on was that leaving debate to ebb and flow on its own is not a very good idea. Invariably, discussions enter what is known as the Hamster Wheel state where nothing new is contributed and the same old arguments revolve around and around ad nauseam. When I owned the site, my brief to the mods was for them to step in where necessary, in their opinion, and to try and manage threads so that they remained reasonably fresh with new ideas and contributions without dying a slow and miserable death by stagnation from the Hamster Wheel syndrome.

    Invariably, the effort to moderate threads that become very long and repetitive becomes more difficult because the moderators themselves, in they are not careful, become equally fed up of the repetitive and ultimately boring nature of the discussion and put less and less effort into trying to control it. By virtue of the volunteer nature of the moderators job, it is a part time effort which, in many circumstances, becomes tirelessly frustrating and, in many cases, leads to frustration, especially with repeat offenders. These repeat offenders tend to be individuals who like the sound of their own voices and will turn a discussion into a Hamster Wheel by repeating their argument even though no one else is listening any more. As a moderator, I remember becoming irritated by some of these posters and when I did see another of their repetitive posts, would just delete it in an effort to get the discussion back on track or to cover new ground. The effort of having to explain to every one of the offenders why their posts had been removed was an effort too far in an already busy life.

    I decided early on to treat the forums as an editor in chief, as much as was possible. The members were the journalists and the other moderators and I would have final say on what was allowed. If members were unhappy with that then they were free to seek a platform elsewhere. The main problem was the overwhelming amount of posting that took place. Invariably, many posts are not reviewed at all and it is only when someone else highlights an issue that they get reviewed.

    Early on in the life of PPRuNe, I learnt that there is a liability for what other people post. Very few of you ever received threatening letters from high powered solicitors threatening you with action if something posted anonymously was potentially libellous or defamatory. There were also cases in the past where real threats were taken seriously. Who remembers The Guvnor? Before he was put away in prison for paedophilia offences, he was very active on here trying to defraud many gullible wannabes. There's a book/movie deal in that one episode alone.

    Ultimately, it is the moderators who have to deal with the incessant amount of discussion that is posted on here. The website was divided up into forums so that the debates could be managed better. One of the biggest problems that has affected this site is the profusion of people that, rightly, want to have a say on something related, however remotely, to professional aviation but have no direct connection to it other than as an end user or an enthusiast with some tangential knowledge about one or more aspects of it. This has inevitably diluted the original reason d'ętre of the forums in the first place. That, I suppos, is evolution.

    Don't forget that PPRuNe started long before FaceBook and other social media apps were around. PPRuNe started when there was only CompuServe AvSig forum. Oh how times have changed. That PPRuNe has survived for over 23 years is a testament to its moderators who have had to endure the criticism, sometimes rightly so, for so long. The biggest criticism I still hear today and I somewhat agree with it is that the "professional pilot" aspect is drowned out and diluted too much by enthusiasts. However, I still appreciate it when I meet someone in the job who thanks me for creating the website in the first place and that it gave them some insight or assistance in getting into the career that they're now in.

    So, criticise away and have your say. Maybe one of us moderators will be able to check if a ban or deletion can be reviewed. I make no promises and I've been away for a long time. But there will be some effort put into it, as and when we find the time. I just hope the discussions can continue and the little gems of information that are often in there are of some use to someone.
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