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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

Old 13th Dec 2019, 07:53
  #41 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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and I’d suggest that given the nature of the anti-immigrant and anti-poor lines from some senior Tories (including the offspring of immigrants to the UK), that it also signals the demise of liberal Britain.
I would suggest the opposite. Look at Boris record in London and his speeches, including this morning. He is a classic One Nation Conservative, and now has to build on his victory and consolidate his hold over the north. That means remaking the party along the new social cleavages where the majority seems to coalescing around those who are socially conservative but fiscally more liberal - Thatcherism and austerity is dead.

I can foresee much more devolution of authority - and responsibility and blame - to the regions with substantial funding for trnsport, house building etc. e.g. I can see HS2 being “deferred” with the funding being directed into HS3, metro lines etc in the north.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 07:57
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Not at all, CJ is completely vindicated. Whichever way you look at it, only 13.9 million voted to leave compared to 18 million that voted against. As Sir John C showed, 52% remain, 48% leave, so all those , including CJ, who said there was a swing to remain were right.

So . . .
I wonder why every TV radio/station, every newspaper and all news reports are clearly stating a Tory majority.
Correct, mathematically, in this case it is not true. But we live in the UK. In a GE the party which secures the most seats are referred to as the majority party.
If yourself or CJ wish to complain, start by challenging all those media outlets.
I am sure they will listen to you. We'll wait.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 07:58
  #43 (permalink)  
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PN, if you assume everyone who voted for the Conservatives was a leaver, everyone who voted for Labour was a remainer - and everyone who voted SNP was a leaver rather than a nationalist. And even then +/- 2% is in the margin of error - as shown in the polls before the referendum.

But, as Adam Boulton observed, that goose has flown...
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:01
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
Basically then Labour supporters did not read or listen to what Corbyn and Co were saying in the run up to both the 2017 and 2019 elections about Brexit, but then again, if they thought Labour was remain, surely, as the remain side have been stating that they are now in the majority, Labour should have won hands down.
But I think what this result shows is that the Remain side is not in the majority. Fortunately for the Conservatives, they also didn't buy into the Labour Party manifesto, or their leader.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:08
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I would suggest the opposite. Look at Boris record in London and his speeches, including this morning. He is a classic One Nation Conservative, and now has to build on his victory and consolidate his hold over the north. That means remaking the party along the new social cleavages where the majority seems to coalescing around those who are socially conservative but fiscally more liberal - Thatcherism and austerity is dead.

I can foresee much more devolution of authority - and responsibility and blame - to the regions with substantial funding for trnsport, house building etc. e.g. I can see HS2 being “deferred” with the funding being directed into HS3, metro lines etc in the north.
@ORAC,

You may be right. However, I'd contend that Johnshon's record is mixed at best. He was quite liberal in the style of a One Nation Conservative when he was in London, but he's also had some very nasty comments about miniorities in the UK and he has led the shift of the party to the right in order to squeeze BxP out and win the election. That's why I've said the makeup of his cabinet will tell a lot, that and those he chooses to surround himself with as advisors.

As for the electorate, in every constituency there was an option other than the tories or labour, that the Conservaties won so convincingly suggests a rejection of more centrist offerings.

For everyone in the UK (not least my friends and family living there), I hope you're assessment is right and he finds a way to quickly navigate the party back to the middle ground ... but I'm yet to be convinced.

JAS
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:27
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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The commentators seem agreed that the result is down to the “working class” voting en masse for Brexit.
Ah well, turkeys, have a good Christmas; it will be the last.
Your only hope is that BoJo’s trade deal in 12 months time keeps us in the Customs. Union, as it probably will.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:30
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
Oh dear, what a catastrophe. I’ll complete the transfer of my business to Poland as a survival measure. 90% of our sales are in the EU. Pity about the loss of jobs, tax revenue etc to the UK but I’m sure that won’t matter in Johnson’s Utopia. When the year of uncertainty is over and surprise surprise the outcome of BoJo’s efforts is that the UK is signed up to the single market so as to trade with the EU we may come home again. But probably not.

Bye. send us a postcard to let us know if life really is greener on the other side.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:33
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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What was actually said was that Remain Conservatives being scared by the prospect of a Corbyn government stayed loyal to the Tories. Whereas Labour leavers to a larger extent moved to Tory or Brexit, the result of this would be to skew the percentages in favour of Leave. The result was pretty much 55/45 Remain. More seriously perhaps is the shift of power in Scotland and Ireland. I would now hope to see those countries recruit a massive fifth column in England for their cause. I will certainly be supporting them against a Tory government in their fight.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:35
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
ORAC, the thing that is wrong with those assumptions is that remain always state that Labour is a remain party when it clearly is not, even for this election Corbyn was saying that labour would negotiate a different deal with the EU to exit, but gave into agreeing to a referendum on whether to accept his deal or remain.
Except he would not answer which side of that referendum he would be pushing for, i.e. the deal he may have negotiated or remain?
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:42
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Oh man, there are how many planets in the solar system ?.......which one are you on ?.

To actually believe anything Boris, let alone Gove, says is more than naïve . Both are accomplished political liars and neither are going to change. If anything, flushed with success, they will get worse.

Remind us of what Boris did for London...or rather Boris's grandiose ego massaging plans for spending money.

The one thing the Tories have always excelled at is, once in power, they get over confident....after all, with a majority, they can't be out voted on policies, However, the electorate aren't going to watch passively once the arrogance becomes imposed and the promises evaporate.

Boris can't continue with this "image " now that he's achieved his goal.... and therein lies the weakness.
Has it occured to you that the average voter could see straight through Komrade Korbyn's fantasy spending plans and realised that he was saying anything to get into power?
What planet are you on...?

*
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:50
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
Bye. send us a postcard to let us know if life really is greener on the other side.
Well, for us it will be, because we exist to sell to EU member countries and there will inevitably be trade and travel barriers between the UK and the EU. That’s why banks, car builders, etc are all working out whether to move into the EU from the UK.
It’s not politics, it’s just commercial common sense for companies dependent on EU sales.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:51
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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What's that old saying about sour grapes making a good whine...
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 08:52
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
What was actually said was that Remain Conservatives being scared by the prospect of a Corbyn government stayed loyal to the Tories. Whereas Labour leavers to a larger extent moved to Tory or Brexit, the result of this would be to skew the percentages in favour of Leave. The result was pretty much 55/45 Remain. More seriously perhaps is the shift of power in Scotland and Ireland. I would now hope to see those countries recruit a massive fifth column in England for their cause. I will certainly be supporting them against a Tory government in their fight.
The situation in Scotland and NI (and in fact in England) suggests to me that the Union will be finished within the next 5 years. Times move on, people change, the environment changes, people get on with it.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:01
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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To actually believe anything Boris, let alone Gove, says is more than naïve . Both are accomplished political liars and neither are going to change. If anything, flushed with success, they will get worse.
The underlying message here is, as usual, all Tory bad, all lefties good.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:03
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I understand now, remain really won as the maths demonstrate that so they have a mandate to stop Brexit by carrying on as they have over the last three years or so by hindering the un-democratic vote of a minority of dimwits who voted for the Conservatives and stop them from carrying out the miss-guided mandate from a small percentage number of the population who cannot think for themselves or understand the complexities of life/economics like the remain side can, and of course the remain side will cause further delays, confusion and division which of course will all be done in a democratic manner, so that's all right then.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:04
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
The situation in Scotland and NI (and in fact in England) suggests to me that the Union will be finished within the next 5 years. Times move on, people change, the environment changes, people get on with it.
Maybe not 5 years, but you can certainly see it on the horizon I agree. The union is another of those things that I once held dear, that I now feel less and less inclined to give a damn about. You cant push water uphill with these people, so if they really DO want to leave then let them get on with it.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:07
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
I understand now, remain really won as the maths demonstrate that so they have a mandate to stop Brexit by carrying on as they have over the last three years or so by hindering the un-democratic vote of a minority of dimwits who voted for the Conservatives and stop them from carrying out the miss-guided mandate from a small percentage number of the population who cannot think for themselves or understand the complexities of life/economics like the remain side can, and of course the remain side will cause further delays, confusion and division which of course will all be done in a democratic manner, so that's all right then.
Let them have one last hurrah exrigger. You really dont need to be a mathematician or statistician to understnd the GE vote was a thumping mandate to "Get Brexit Done". What the rest of his agenda is, is of much more interest to me now.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:17
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
And welcome to the UK. now on course to become a full fledged right wing junta in it's own right.

I appreciate that, not only on here, but across the UK the result has exceeded your wildest dreams.....for the autocratic, the smug, the arrogant, the bullies, those with nothing but their own selfish interests at heart, last night will be celebrated and enshrined in their minds.....until, that is, the promises start to unravel and the effects of the policies start to impact on their lives.

This shouldn't take too long really. Once we've left the EU, more jingoistic euphoria can be expected on the day, there still remains those "promises" Boris made and which will now mysteriously be watered down, ignored or simply and conveniently forgotten. And, five years is more than adequate to get involved in a conflict somewhere on the globe, depends entirely on when, and where, Trump decides.

For those who feel they are immune from the effects of both leaving the EU, and Tory policy, enjoy the delusion while you can. It will be too late to start protesting "but I voted Tory in 2019, " in the not too distant future.

The rest of the world will also now be aware the UK has embarked on a self harming process and with a PM who lacks any international credibility......being wholly reliant on Trump for support.

Enjoy you fleeting moment of pleasure...chaps.
Where to start with this one KnC?? I feel for you and the obvious disappointment that comes with the annihilation of JC and everything he stands for (or wasnt quite sure where he stood on).

But to paint BoJo and the Conservative party as a far right wing Junta is just madness. What he was for the majority, was the least worst option on the day. And it really doesnt merit the hyperbole of your post above. It's very clear lots of disaffected Labour voters "lent" him their vote so If he doesnt deliver, in the way people like, then he'll be out on his ear next time round. Simples really.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:17
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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What a lovely morning, anything interesting happening?
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:19
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Maybe not 5 years, but you can certainly see it on the horizon I agree. The union is another of those things that I once held dear, that I now feel less and less inclined to give a damn about. You cant push water uphill with these people, so if they really DO want to leave then let them get on with it.
Andrew - please remember that not everybody up here wants 'Indy dependence' - prior to this GE the SNP were in decline because their record in government up here is absolutely appalling.

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