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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:52
  #4741 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Children on FSM are eligible via low income parents; or those on benefits. It's an extra means-tested benefit. It's a 'good' benefit for poor kids, cos the money cannot be usurped. In chaotic families, it might be the only decent food the child gets.

CG.
I don't believe that many Tory MPs don't understand this; however the stupid, childish and utterly outdated political system that we have demands that these MPs still feel forced by party whips to toddle through the government lobby and do as they're bl00dy well told.

It is now way to run a modern forward looking country; sad to say the UK is neither.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 17:07
  #4742 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
You have my sympathy. Until April I felt in exactly the same position in regard to Labour. The answer of course is to replace an ignorant under performing leader who is out of step with the electorate on everything apart from ( for a moment in time) Brexit.
EM, be forewarned......."Private Eye " may sue for plagiarism here !......this on the basis p32 of the current issue " News in Brief " has a nice little piece about one weak and ineffectual who was booted out ( Treeza ) to be replaced by another ( Boris ) to be replaced by Suni, to be also booted out for some obscure backbencher in 2022....
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 21:53
  #4743 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Out of interest, there were quite a few strident Boris supporters on here about this time last year, and after December.....so it would be interesting to learn, this question being based purely on pragmatism you understand, if they still have the same adulation for Boris ?
Krystal - you know my political views to be in stark opposition to your own and may remember that a year ago I was a huge Boris fan. In the days when Brexit was just about the only cloud on the horizon, I and many others saw Boris in an adulatory light but sadly, since then, his Messianic mantle has slipped. Had the status quo of that period prevailed, I think Boris might have done very well, but things have changed in a most unexpected and dramatic way.

Boris might have followed the excellent example of Ronald Reagan but no, he formed a so-called government made up of fifth-raters, none of whom (with the possible exception of Sunak) seem to know what day of the week it is. Boris with his blindly following a bunch of academics peddling their junk science has brought the country to its knees. The government will continue with the clearly discredited lockdown formula as any departure therefrom would be to suggest that they had got it wrong in the first place. Politicians are unable to admit to such things. So we shall continue to be sacrificed on the altar of this arrant nonsense until a sufficient number of us refuse any longer to behave like a flock of lobotomised sheep and seek to change things.

So, in answer to your question, there are many of us who, to our considerable regret have discovered yet another false god with clay feet. Perhaps the biggest regret is that Her majesty's Loyal Opposition is similarly clueless so, like Henry Kissinger and as a follower of the American Presidential shenanigans, I think it a great shame that they all can't lose. They certainly deserve to.


Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 24th Oct 2020 at 22:05.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 22:20
  #4744 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Krystal - you know my political views to be in stark opposition to your own and may remember that a year ago I was a huge Boris fan. In the days when Brexit was just about the only cloud on the horizon, I and many others saw Boris in an adulatory light but sadly, since then, his Messianic mantle has slipped..
"Mantle has slipped" ...Nothing "has slipped" ..

Were you really completely unaware of the views on Mr Johnson's fitness for office published many years ago by old school tories such as Richard North, Max Hastings and others? In case you weren't - from Max Hastings in 2012 ( Daily Mail piece initially, republished by the Guardian, full article first link bottom of this post):

Boris Johnson was at the Tory conference on Tuesday for one purpose only – the exaltation of himself. This does not much matter when he is only mayor of London, but would make him a wretched prime minister. He is not a man to believe in, to trust or respect, save as a superlative exhibitionist. He is bereft of judgment, loyalty and discretion. Only in the star-crazed, frivolous Britain of the 21st century could such a man have risen so high, and he is utterly unfit to go higher still.

Mr Johnson's behaviour in the last year really cannot have been a surprise to anybody who was actually paying full attention to his time as Mayor of London...and TBH failing that even watching half an hour of an appropriate episode HIGNFY should have given people a clue as to the depth of the man's character.

The Tory party got what they wanted last year - a populist election winner and Mr Johnson hasn't changed one bit since, it's too late now to be suffering from, or pretending to be suffering from, an attack of voters remorse;

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...prime-minister

https://www.standard.co.uk/panewsfee...r-8469058.html

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85992




Last edited by wiggy; 24th Oct 2020 at 22:37.
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 22:24
  #4745 (permalink)  
 
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I can't really sympathise with your position. Last December it was crystal clear that we had a pair ( and probably more if you include the LD's and Brexit) of party leaders who were patently incapable of organising the proverbial outing to the brewers. I actually argued this point re Corbyn on this very thread.

But if you look at those incompetents on the government front bench they have one thing in common, and I don't need to spell it out. If you select people on the basis of their support for one policy only then that is what you are going to get. Eighty years ago another great leader was engaged in exactly the same policy making gaffe. He cast his eyes to the east and said.." The easiest campaign in history." It's what happens when you put fools in charge.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 07:49
  #4746 (permalink)  
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G Q,

Thank you for your open response to my question. However, as many have said both on here and in the broader public domain, Boris's traits and "character "have long been glaringly obvious and well documented .

I wouldn't get overly enthused about Suni either, True, at the moment he's wearing a halo in the eyes of many, however, once the redundancies / recession start to make their full effects known, plus, the Gov't would like their money back, lets call this tax rises shall we, then Suni's stature is going to drop, rapidly.....Boris, being Boris, will duly attempt to deflect any blame onto him, which, in the past, would usually have worked.

Not this time however.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 09:33
  #4747 (permalink)  
 
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It's not my place to defend Rishi, but he has a thankless and hopeless task on his hands. It's one where his best option is to bite the bullet and deliver some good old fashioned socialist policies. As for his boss, well I understand the disappointment of many of his erstwhile supporters but the bloke can't even make a speech without a couple of hundred errs and ums. It's awful disjointed stuff littered with faux Churchillian jingoism that serves only to underline the man's unsuitability for the task in hand.

We need somebody of an entirely different stature for the situation that we find ourselves in today. I would suggest that either Major or Blair would convey a message far more suitable to the gravity of our current position.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 12:46
  #4748 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect that there are two reasons why we have a Tory Government with such a large majority, firstly the majority of the electorate wished to leave the EU, and at the last election the only person who stated that he would achieve this was the Tory PM, secondly there just simply was no alternative to the Tory Party. None.

The next election will be different, Brexit will have been completed and probably forgotten about, the economy will be struggling post covid, but will there be an alternative to the Tory Party? that is the big question. Starmer seems to be impotent, the hard left and the witless in his party, (Corbyn, McDonald and Abbott) are trying to remove him and the bleak prospect of Len McClusky influencing things in the background is still there, until he rakes out that lot and replaces them with trustworthy people he is stumped.

I am no particular fan of Boris Johnson and can quite see the point of view expressed by his detractors, but, he seems to be representing our interests with the EU, something May didn't do, and observing how the Labour controlled Wales and the SNP controlled Scotland are dealing with covid I can't see that he is any worse.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 13:13
  #4749 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect that there are two reasons why we have a Tory Government with such a large majority,
Mr Bellcrank's relatively recent involvement on this forum may, possibly, mean that he has missed (intentionally or otherwise) my 'musings' on this topic. To attempt to rectify this, let me offer a general summation - Mr B's 'suspicions' are, not to put too fine a point on it, - crap! The ONLY reason that we have a "Tory Majority" is a 'corrupt' electoral system!!! Mr B is, demonstrably literate; if he is also numerate, he will be able to research the voting totals from the last election (NOT the Constituency results) and aggregate them to obtain an indication of what the British electorate (who voted) intended - a 'hung' Parliament. Were Mr B to employ his relatively accurate assessment skills, re. the Labour Party, to the 'oxygen thieves', presently inhabiting the upper tiers of his (apparently) admired lunatic circus, possibly the scales might be removed ... but I very much doubt it!
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 13:41
  #4750 (permalink)  
 
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Actually I was musing on reality rather than fantasy.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 13:51
  #4751 (permalink)  
 
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It's very easy to play the "corrupt electoral voting system" card, however it is not so long ago that the aforesaid "corrupt electoral voting system" returned a Labour government for a decade or more.

Consequently, it is my opinion that the system is not much more corrupt now than it was then.

IG

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Old 25th Oct 2020, 14:11
  #4752 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect that although "get Brixit done" played a part in the Boris landslide, the other factor was that not even Labours own supporters could bring themselves to vote for a party led by Corbyn. Now if Starmer had led the party into the election, the result could have been quite interesting.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 14:22
  #4753 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
It's very easy to play the "corrupt electoral voting system" card, however it is not so long ago that the aforesaid "corrupt electoral voting system" returned a Labour government for a decade or more.

Consequently, it is my opinion that the system is not much more corrupt now than it was then.

IG
It's not corrupt, well at least not apart from the scandal of postal voting (for people who want it rather than need it). What it is is undemocratic, or less democratic than a modern nation ought to have, is a situation where the number of MPs that each grouping gets is significant different to the proportion of the vote they receive.

That applies whether it keeps Labour or Tories in power. it is indefensible if you truly believe in democracy.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 14:45
  #4754 (permalink)  
 
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Some of the older folk on here will remember how Red Ken got rid of the moderate Labour leader at the GLC after Labour had won the elections to the GLC.

I suspect that the Left will have a go at that if Starmer looks likely to win anything. If Labour get elected, there will be interesting times.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 16:30
  #4755 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
Some of the older folk on here will remember how Red Ken got rid of the moderate Labour leader at the GLC after Labour had won the elections to the GLC.

I suspect that the Left will have a go at that if Starmer looks likely to win anything. If Labour get elected, there will be interesting times.

With their current rules it would be very difficult to do that. With a council it's quite easy, post election you just choose another leader but with a government you would have to persuade a majority of the members that it would be a good thing to ditch the man who just delivered that result. Nice try though and I have no doubt the Murdoch administration will run with it in 2024. Sadly by then the UK will be somewhat smaller both in size as well as influence in the world.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 18:28
  #4756 (permalink)  
 
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Like many, I read the huge coverage in the Sunday Times today with horror at the allegations of a hidden Covid 19 triage tool handed down to hospitals, even ambulance staff, that denied care to various categories; "over 80" being a one-way ticket to a grave was the one that concerned me most.

Unlike many, I have the advantage of having a Consultant daughter in the thick of the coronavirus battle in northern England, along with her Immunologist husband, who assures me the the Insight report is a load of invented cobblers from start to finish, a view evidently being shared forcefully on private and public media by medics in all parts of the country who regards the piece as ridiculous and insulting to them.

Were the reporters involved deliberately, comprehensively and elaborately misled by a faction trying to create trouble? Why didn't they check the story out? Maybe Rupert Murdoch and that ginger-haired piece of work, Rebecca Someone, who runs things in the UK should be called to explain?
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 18:41
  #4757 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
I suspect that there are two reasons why we have a Tory Government with such a large majority, firstly the majority of the electorate wished to leave the EU, and at the last election the only person who stated that he would achieve this was the Tory PM, secondly there just simply was no alternative to the Tory Party. None.

The next election will be different, Brexit will have been completed and probably forgotten about, the economy will be struggling post covid, but will there be an alternative to the Tory Party? that is the big question. Starmer seems to be impotent, the hard left and the witless in his party, (Corbyn, McDonald and Abbott) are trying to remove him and the bleak prospect of Len McClusky influencing things in the background is still there, until he rakes out that lot and replaces them with trustworthy people he is stumped.

I am no particular fan of Boris Johnson and can quite see the point of view expressed by his detractors, but, he seems to be representing our interests with the EU, something May didn't do, and observing how the Labour controlled Wales and the SNP controlled Scotland are dealing with covid I can't see that he is any worse.
Oh does he ?.....any evidence to support this would be welcome both on here and in the wider world .....here's a helpful clue...thus far, there ain't any. However, we have about 2 months to go until the grand finale jingoism riddled flounce out, so, maybe, your optimism may yet prove correct....
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 18:46
  #4758 (permalink)  
 
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old, not

Yup. Daughter works in NHS on South Coast. They were heading towards chaos and being overwhelmed die to the virus, but nothing like what the S Times reports. Sounds like vindictive spin from a few.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 19:20
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
old, not

Yup. Daughter works in NHS on South Coast. They were heading towards chaos and being overwhelmed die to the virus, but nothing like what the S Times reports. Sounds like vindictive spin from a few.
Iím not quite sure why the Sunday Times report is so shocking. The NHS has always made decisions about patient viability and treatment with the elderly based on a points system. They will often advise strongly or steer family members towards certain outcomes. If you have a Health and Welfare Lasting Power of Attorney, your agent - the person you have nominated to act on your behalf - may well be asked to make the call over whether you receive continuing care.
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Old 25th Oct 2020, 21:38
  #4760 (permalink)  
 
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Dr WB627 is not aware of the guidelines that have been reported in the Times.

I have of necessity had discussions around the subject of DNR notices with Dr WB627, when my mother was admitted to hospital in 2017 and subsequently died and when my cousin died in hospital last November, with a DNR notice that was not discussed with the family.

In order to be placed on a ventilator, the patient must be intubated. This means having an endotracheal tube placed in the mouth or nose and threaded down into the airway. It is an invasive procedure and can cause considerable discomfort. However, typically patients will be given general anaesthesia which is not good for the elderly, especially with respiratory problems and a muscle relaxing medication so that they don't feel any pain. At the best of times an 80+ year old is unlikely to get off a ventilator and that's before you throw Covid into the mix. Itís not good whatever age you are. At the end of the day it is a medical decision and was so, even before Covid and if the ITU doctors or ward consultants see no benefit to the patient from putting them through that, they're not going to do it.
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